# 31 ----winless champ ---even closer now !

I don't know where this preoccupation with number of wins came from . I never heard it discussed till a couple of years ago , now it seems that Nascar will somehow suffer untold misery if we have a winless champion . Surely folks must realize that counting season points is an acceptable way of determining a champion . Obviously it's different than 'stick and ball' sports , but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it . Nothing will happen if we have a winless champion , honest...nothing .

it would around here..heads will explode..although they will deny it when called out. They will be swearing off watching forever with and without their secret oath, and will swear on their dying breath that Brian is the worst thing that has ever happened to Nascar..did I get most of it covered for the off season rants? :blush:

Oh gees, I forgot about the charts and graphs, can't forget those.
 
I don't know where this preoccupation with number of wins came from . I never heard it discussed till a couple of years ago , now it seems that Nascar will somehow suffer untold misery if we have a winless champion . Surely folks must realize that counting season points is an acceptable way of determining a champion . Obviously it's different than 'stick and ball' sports , but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it . Nothing will happen if we have a winless champion , honest...nothing .
I agree that nothing would be wrong with it, don't know if I agree with the "nothing would happen" part though. Brian is the guy who has put this great emphasis on winning, and I think it would drive him nuts if somebody wins the championship this year with a goose egg in the win column.
 
Unfortunately, I think the next format would be this: no set number of drivers in the Chase, you win one of the first 26 you're in, if you don't you're out. Then if a chase driver wins one of the first 9 chase races, they're in at Homestead, if not, they're out. This would completely eliminate points racing, ensure the champion has at least two wins, and could have as many as 9 drivers competing for the championship at Homestead. This is similar to what @MikeInIllinois posted a couple days ago.
But what if only one of the Chasers wins and therefore clinches the title before Homestead? We simply cannot have that. Or, what if no one wins? Then we'll have no chumpion! :eek:
 
so i guess if Newman did win the championship or Kenseth without a win they don't deserve it...who deserves it a guy with the most wins regardless of how they finished all the other races, or a guy who had just 1 win. i know Brian wanted an emphasis on winning, but i never heard him say that's the only way. i always thought people loved an underdog, i guess just not in racing.
 
so i guess if Newman did win the championship or Kenseth without a win they don't deserve it...who deserves it a guy with the most wins regardless of how they finished all the other races, or a guy who had just 1 win. i know Brian wanted an emphasis on winning, but i never heard him say that's the only way. i always thought people loved an underdog, i guess just not in racing.

there will be charts and graphs Pudge, and wailing and the gnashing of teeth and years of flapping gums and that is just for if somebody besides Gordon doesn't win. a win less champion? Brian will not be seen in public and will probably move to Mexico.
 
Is there another racing series in the world that doesn't put the emphasis on season long performance instead of on a single win at the closing race ?
 
Seriously though, Indy car started giving double points at some of their races, shaking things up a bit, so Nascar isn't the only auto racing series changing things around.
 
Horse racing? Is this a Jeopardy question Ted? "what is horse racing"

mmmm maybee . I'm not entirely sure that they don't have some sort of season long winnings total . It may not give them a title but there is a notoriety that goes with that.
 
I think we'll see some kind of rule to prevent the possibility of a winless champion going forward should Newman or Kenseth win the championship without winning a race. I don't think we've ever had a winless champion in Cup, not in the modern era anyway. It'd look kind of bad if the format that's all about winning produces a winless champion in its first year.
You don't have to worry about it this year. Jeff Gordon has won races and he'll be your new champ. :D
 
NASCAR HoF'er Dale Jarrett was asked his opinion on a possible winless champion the other day @ Martinsvile. He response came in the suggestion of a change to the current Chase leading forward. He was using four of the current crop of eight possible drivers moving into the final race @ Homestead including the winless Ryan Newman and Matt Kenseth. He said that he would like to see NASCAR implement a change that if a winless driver advanced to that final race that he/she would have to win that final race in order to take the title while someone that has already won a race in the previous 35 only have to finish ahead of the other three drivers.

dj is doin :sarcasm: now ? :D
 
Congratulations to Wilkes Co Allstars who has pretty much locked up the Yahoo pool with 4 wins , so sad for Blanston who is tied for last with 0 wins. Brian France has decided that only wins count for the championship and not accumulated points.
 
so i guess if Newman did win the championship or Kenseth without a win they don't deserve it...who deserves it a guy with the most wins regardless of how they finished all the other races, or a guy who had just 1 win. i know Brian wanted an emphasis on winning, but i never heard him say that's the only way. i always thought people loved an underdog, i guess just not in racing.

me either.
 
ya'll anti chase guys like " what if 's " . here's one that oughta get ya fired up.

hms sent all 4 teams ta homestead ta test yesterday / today . yep ! ----all 4 !
#31 is only chaser that didn't go.

what if ? .... # 24 has dnf / etc next 2 races......doesn't make final 4.
but #31 does on points.....doesn't win homestead ......but beats other 3 - wins cup.........w/o testing there !

will he get dble whammy then ? "winless and didn't test * " :D

* gotta be cheatin ......everybody else tested there.
 
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ya'll anti chase guys like " what if 's " . here's one that oughta get ya fired up.

hms sent all 4 teams ta homestead ta test yesterday / today . yep ! ----all 4 !
#31 is only chaser that didn't go.

what if ? .... # 24 has dnf / etc next 2 races......doesn't make final 4.
but #31 does on points.....doesn't win homestead ......but beats other 3 - wins cup.........w/o testing there !

will he get dble whammy then ? "winless and didn't test * " :D

* gotta be cheatin ......everybody else tested there.

You forgot RCR's chase spec motor.
We all remember the wrath Gordon unleashed on Burton, Newman won't have a chance.
 
ya'll anti chase guys like " what if 's " . here's one that oughta get ya fired up.

hms sent all 4 teams ta homestead ta test yesterday / today . yep ! ----all 4 !
#31 is only chaser that didn't go.

what if ? .... # 24 has dnf / etc next 2 races......doesn't make final 4.
but #31 does on points.....doesn't win homestead ......but beats other 3 - wins cup.........w/o testing there !

will he get dble whammy then ? "winless and didn't test * " :D

* gotta be cheatin ......everybody else tested there.
Newman's the only one still in chase not testing there
 
so i guess if Newman did win the championship or Kenseth without a win they don't deserve it...who deserves it a guy with the most wins regardless of how they finished all the other races, or a guy who had just 1 win. i know Brian wanted an emphasis on winning, but i never heard him say that's the only way. i always thought people loved an underdog, i guess just not in racing.
It seems bizarre that you could win a championship without actually winning any races. That just seems to go against the point of the sport - to complete the distance before everyone else.

Brian did say they wanted to make points racing less important because avid fans don't care for it and casual fans don't understand it.
 
It seems bizarre that you could win a championship without actually winning any races. That just seems to go against the point of the sport - to complete the distance before everyone else.

Brian did say they wanted to make points racing less important because avid fans don't care for it and casual fans don't understand it.
The point of an individual race is to complete the distance before everyone else.

The point of the championship used to be consistency over a series of races, not just hitting a hot streak and winning a few.
 
The point of an individual race is to complete the distance before everyone else.

The point of the championship used to be consistency over a series of races, not just hitting a hot streak and winning a few.
Reconciling the two, you should have a champion who has won at least a few races. Running back through 2005, every champion won at least five races which is very respectable.

I'm all for consistency as long as it's consistently winning and consistently grabbing Top 5 finishes. Top-10ing and Top-20ing the field to death is boring, imo.
 
It seems bizarre that you could win a championship without actually winning any races. That just seems to go against the point of the sport - to complete the distance before everyone else.

Not needing to win a race. But could potentially win the championship by merely finishing ahead of the guy you need to beat. Be it in 20th place or 35th.

Very odd indeed.
 
ya'll anti chase guys like " what if 's " . here's one that oughta get ya fired up.

hms sent all 4 teams ta homestead ta test yesterday / today . yep ! ----all 4 !
#31 is only chaser that didn't go.

what if ? .... # 24 has dnf / etc next 2 races......doesn't make final 4.
but #31 does on points.....doesn't win homestead ......but beats other 3 - wins cup.........w/o testing there !

will he get dble whammy then ? "winless and didn't test * " :D

* gotta be cheatin ......everybody else tested there.

He would if he could. #31 was the only one still in the chase that had used up all their test sessions.
 
Reconciling the two, you should have a champion who has won at least a few races. Running back through 2005, every champion won at least five races which is very respectable.

I'm all for consistency as long as it's consistently winning and consistently grabbing Top 5 finishes. Top-10ing and Top-20ing the field to death is boring, imo.
Getting Top-5s and Top-10s might not be as glamorous or exciting as winning a bunch of races, which is what most people remember, but that used to be how you won the big prize, the championship, which everyone remembers. I can't tell you who won the last ten races without having to look it up, but I can definitely tell you who won the last ten championships. Consistency will always be part of the game until King Brian finally decides to get rid of points entirely and truly makes it all about winning.

Don't get me wrong, ice cream sundaes are tasty and all, but I dunno, I like my meat and potatoes. I've always been like that. I was the weird NBA fan that liked great defense, where the final score would be something like 76-68, as opposed to the run and gun style where one team would score 70 points in a half but give up 68 points.

It really just comes down to your personal preference. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. :)
 
Getting Top-5s and Top-10s might not be as glamorous or exciting as winning a bunch of races, which is what most people remember, but that used to be how you won the big prize, the championship, which everyone remembers. I can't tell you who won the last ten races without having to look it up, but I can definitely tell you who won the last ten championships. Consistency will always be part of the game until King Brian finally decides to get rid of points entirely and truly makes it all about winning.

Don't get me wrong, ice cream sundaes are tasty and all, but I dunno, I like my meat and potatoes. I've always been like that. I was the weird NBA fan that liked great defense, where the final score would be something like 76-68, as opposed to the run and gun style where one team would score 70 points in a half but give up 68 points.

It really just comes down to your personal preference. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. :)

You get a like for talking about another passion of mine.

Also that is how my Spurs played for most of their run that won them almost all their titles.
 
Getting Top-5s and Top-10s might not be as glamorous or exciting as winning a bunch of races, which is what most people remember, but that used to be how you won the big prize, the championship, which everyone remembers. I can't tell you who won the last ten races without having to look it up, but I can definitely tell you who won the last ten championships. Consistency will always be part of the game until King Brian finally decides to get rid of points entirely and truly makes it all about winning.

Don't get me wrong, ice cream sundaes are tasty and all, but I dunno, I like my meat and potatoes. I've always been like that. I was the weird NBA fan that liked great defense, where the final score would be something like 76-68, as opposed to the run and gun style where one team would score 70 points in a half but give up 68 points.

It really just comes down to your personal preference. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. :)
I'm not against the idea of points as long as the scale is weighted towards winning and Top 5s. Imo, a championship is supposed to crown the best at something. Too often, in too many sports, it simply crowns a winner. If a guy's claim to fame in a particular season is that he finished in the Top 20 more than anyone else did, how has he performed better than everyone? Newman has had a good season but one with four Top 5s in thirty-three races is hardly championship-worthy, no? Even amongst winless drivers I think his season falls short of Kenseth's and Larson's.

If I were to take a strict interpretation of "deserve" I'd have to say one of Logano, Keselowski, and Gordon should win the championship. They've been consistent and they've won.

I get what Brian is trying to do and has been trying to do, I just don't think he's gone about it properly. He mentioned "combining the tradition of consistency in our sport with the excitement that comes along with winning" when they made the big changes back in 2011 but they still haven't struck that balance.
 
You get a like for talking about another passion of mine.

Also that is how my Spurs played for most of their run that won them almost all their titles.
I was always an Eastern Conference guy, but if a Western Conference team had to win, I didn't mind it so much when it was the Spurs. They were like the 48 team. They just did everything right.

I generally cared more about the individual players than the teams, but I loved the Pistons from the 2003 season, when they got Rasheed Wallace, to 2006, when Ben Wallace left. That was my team - defense first and second. :)
 
I'm not against the idea of points as long as the scale is weighted towards winning and Top 5s. Imo, a championship is supposed to crown the best at something. Too often, in too many sports, it simply crowns a winner. If a guy's claim to fame in a particular season is that he finished in the Top 20 more than anyone else did, how has he performed better than everyone? Newman has had a good season but one with four Top 5s in thirty-three races is hardly championship-worthy, no? Even amongst winless drivers I think his season falls short of Kenseth's and Larson's.

If I were to take a strict interpretation of "deserve" I'd have to say one of Logano, Keselowski, and Gordon should win the championship. They've been consistent and they've won.

I get what Brian is trying to do and has been trying to do, I just don't think he's gone about it properly. He mentioned "combining the tradition of consistency in our sport with the excitement that comes along with winning" when they made the big changes back in 2011 but they still haven't struck that balance.
I've said this before, but I feel like they did strike a good balance in 2011. Carl Edwards had a higher average finish than Tony that year - the highest average finish in Chase history, if I recall correctly. Even with that incredible performance, the best he could do was tie Stewart in the points. Nothing says compromise and balance like two guys taking the winning and consistency approaches to the championship hunt and ending in a tie. What was the tiebreaker? The number of wins. Stewart had 5 and Carl had one. Stewart won it. The system was fine IMO.

And you keep bringing up Top-20s, like I get all hot and bothered over that junk. LOL. I agree man, eff Top-20s, especially 15-20. That's only significant for rookies and people that don't typically run well.

I just want to see Newman win as a screw the system thing more than anything else. Plus, I like the guy and I'm glad that he is running respectably in the 31 after getting dumped by SHR.
 
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I've said this before, but I feel like they did strike a good balance in 2011. Carl Edwards had a higher average finish than Tony that year - the highest average finish in Chase history, if I recall correctly. Even with that incredible performance, the best he could do was tie Stewart in the points. Nothing says compromise and balance like two guys taking the winning and consistency approaches to the championship hunt and ending in a tie. What was the tiebreaker? The number of wins. Stewart had 5 and Carl had one. Stewart won it. The system was fine IMO.

And you keep bringing up Top-20s, like I get all hot and bothered over that junk. LOL. I agree man, eff Top-20s, especially 15-20. That's only significant for rookies and people that don't typically run well.

I just want to see Newman win as a screw the system thing more than anything else. Plus, I like the guy and I'm glad that he is running respectably in the 31 after getting dumped by SHR.
Tony should have won that championship by more than he did. Carl had a great Chase but I think it's much harder to win five out of ten races than it is to finish 11th or better ten races in a row. It would've been a travesty if Tony lost the title due to finishing outside of 15th once while winning half of the races to a guy who didn't win any. You don't need to look much further than where Austin Dillon would stand in the "no-Chase" points standings right now to see that something is still wrong with a linear scale.

I agree that it would be nice to see Newman win in a sense; as I've said before, I feel like he still deserves one from '03 and it would be interesting to see how the sanctioning body reacts. Maybe then we could truly see some more emphasis on winning.
 
Tony should have won that championship by more than he did. Carl had a great Chase but I think it's much harder to win five out of ten races than it is to finish 11th or better ten races in a row. It would've been a travesty if Tony lost the title due to finishing outside of 15th once while winning half of the races to a guy who didn't win any. You don't need to look much further than where Austin Dillon would stand in the "no-Chase" points standings right now to see that something is still wrong with a linear scale.

I agree that it would be nice to see Newman win in a sense; as I've said before, I feel like he still deserves one from '03 and it would be interesting to see how the sanctioning body reacts. Maybe then we could truly see some more emphasis on winning.
Aww, come on man, beggars can't be choosers. LOL.

An average finish of 4.9 over ten races and winning five out of ten races are both pretty darn impressive, and both guys deserved it IMO. In the end, according to the rules, Stewart won it, and I was fine with that. Consistency was important, as it has traditionally always been, but so was winning. Compromise.
 
Aww, come on man, beggars can't be choosers. LOL.

An average finish of 4.9 over ten races and winning five out of ten races are both pretty darn impressive, and both guys deserved it IMO. In the end, according to the rules, Stewart won it, and I was fine with that. Consistency was important, as it has traditionally always been, but so was winning. Compromise.
Median > Mean

The current system is more generous towards average finish which means you can still Top 15 and Top 20 your way into and through the Chase. I know saying he should've won by more is greedy but I really don't think it should've come down to a tiebreaker in the first place. We can do better.
 
Well... technically you could finish 3rd in 2 races and 2nd in 1 of the 3 in this round and still not make it... theoretically anyway... Jr's win threw that off... but there's potential for it lol
 
Median > Mean

The current system is more generous towards average finish which means you can still Top 15 and Top 20 your way into and through the Chase. I know saying he should've won by more is greedy but I really don't think it should've come down to a tiebreaker in the first place. We can do better.
Don't worry. Eventually King Brian will find a way to render consistency irrelevant and truly make everything all about winning. He already got his guaranteed Game 7 moment that he wanted so bad. It'll happen.
 
Don't worry. Eventually King Brian will find a way to render consistency irrelevant and truly make everything all about winning. He already got his guaranteed Game 7 moment that he wanted so bad. It'll happen.

not if we get a winless #31 or #20 champ this yr . pr / media blitz will be too great for change. :D
 
not if we get a winless #31 or #20 champ this yr . pr / media blitz will be too great for change. :D

Thinking Matt gets his lone win this weekend so we won't have to worry there.
 
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