Kyle Busch - Nascar's next great?

4tires17gals said:
He is nearly at 200 like Richard
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I have been saying for years Kyle may be the most talanted driver out there.

I think he would be driving like Curtis Turner if NASCAR powers-to-be didnt do everything they can to hold him back.

Still, Kyle breaks records.

It seems to me he learned a lot last year. NASCAR ain't about racing, its about winning the NASCAR game. And he did it.
I"ll bet Brian had a bitter taste in his mouth all winter while Kyle was smiling from that lingering sweetness.
 
Kyle is the most talented driver in recent history. But, using Xfinity and Truck success to claim him as the greatest is grasping. But, Beyond The Flag is a **** excuse for a website, so...
 
K.Booosh is an azzhole and always will be. Lets take a look at his past---- spins a guy right into the wall ( on a caution lap and on purpose) and gets suspended. Repeatedly avoids an interview( wrecks or whatever) because he has to change his tampon while he's pouting ( oh too bad baby). he isnt a class act and never will be. His team mates tags him on the final lap (19) ( what does that tell you?) He isnt what nafcar thinks he is,, he's a puss faced whiner and I hope he get what he deserves. one word comes to mind-- he's a Jackhole.
 
"...Let me try and put that in perspective without trying to make one guy look good versus making another guy look bad. That's not my point at all. Back before the modern era of NASCAR guys were winning races that don't even come close to what an XFINITY or Truck Series race is today.
Some of the races back then were very short, like a 100-miler. Some were on dirt while others were on concrete. We're talking about little tracks all over the country at a time in our sport when you could run, no lie, 60 or 70 races a year.
While I don't want to say it's unfair to compare numbers to numbers, Richard Petty and David Pearson had quality wins, but what Kyle Busch is doing is all quality wins. There's a ton of great competition in the XFINITY and Truck series. These drivers simply don't roll over because Kyle Busch is in the race. From a Truck, to an XFINITY series car, to a NASCAR Sprint Cup race, Kyle might win all three races in a weekend..."
-Darrell Waltrip
.
 
You have to consider the source......... Darrell Waltrip......... The Mouth of the South....... Mr. Boogity.... Boogity.... Boogity...... The EX racer who just can't seem to shut up...........
 
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The NXS & Truck wins are nice feats. But have no sort of argument to make him other than very good.

I'd like to see a 7-10 win season, 2000+ laps led season, and another championship to call him a great. Not entirely out of the question there.
 
BobbyFord said:
"...Let me try and put that in perspective without trying to make one guy look good versus making another guy look bad. That's not my point at all. Back before the modern era of NASCAR guys were winning races that don't even come close to what an XFINITY or Truck Series race is today.
Some of the races back then were very short, like a 100-miler. Some were on dirt while others were on concrete. We're talking about little tracks all over the country at a time in our sport when you could run, no lie, 60 or 70 races a year.
While I don't want to say it's unfair to compare numbers to numbers, Richard Petty and David Pearson had quality wins, but what Kyle Busch is doing is all quality wins. There's a ton of great competition in the XFINITY and Truck series. These drivers simply don't roll over because Kyle Busch is in the race. From a Truck, to an XFINITY series car, to a NASCAR Sprint Cup race, Kyle might win all three races in a weekend..."
-Darrell Waltrip
.
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Sure. This is conformation bias though. DW makes a point, but all it does is validate KB's total NASCAR wins, which, while impressive, is just one (relatively minor) attribute of the way fans, and drivers define the criteria for an all time great.

What DW says is true, however it opens up a sort of transference bias; this "validated" attribute of Busch still isn't enough as it just one minor attribute used to define a status which seems to rely primarily on Sprint Cup success.
There's no objective definition, however the criteria seems to be a driver's cup career; most all time greats in NASCAR are statistically defined by their cup career. Therefor using Busch's success across all three series to define a status which primarily depends on cup stats makes him an outlier.
In stats, the mode and median are used most often as measures of central tendency, as they are less affected by outliers than the mean and range, allowing a a significant outlying score or stat to be..well, an outlier, and or basically ignored..just saying ;)

This all being said, I think the most objective way to truly stack him up against the greats is to focuss exclussively on his cup career. That's the point this thread: To predict and discuss Kyle's Sprint Cup legacy compared to other greats.

40 wins before 35 years old..still impressive
 
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BobbyFord said:
"...Let me try and put that in perspective without trying to make one guy look good versus making another guy look bad. That's not my point at all. Back before the modern era of NASCAR guys were winning races that don't even come close to what an XFINITY or Truck Series race is today.
Some of the races back then were very short, like a 100-miler. Some were on dirt while others were on concrete. We're talking about little tracks all over the country at a time in our sport when you could run, no lie, 60 or 70 races a year.
While I don't want to say it's unfair to compare numbers to numbers, Richard Petty and David Pearson had quality wins, but what Kyle Busch is doing is all quality wins. There's a ton of great competition in the XFINITY and Truck series. These drivers simply don't roll over because Kyle Busch is in the race. From a Truck, to an XFINITY series car, to a NASCAR Sprint Cup race, Kyle might win all three races in a weekend..."
-Darrell Waltrip
.
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Nice quote. DW has been riding Kyle's nuts for years and years.

Diminishing Petty's wins to try to pump up Kyle's truck victories. lol. If anything, that type of reasoning would serve Jeff's or even Jimmie's claim to being the best. Surely if the Trucks are harder than Petty's cup races, then the modern cup races are even harder.
 
jaqua19 said:
Sure. This is conformation bias though. DW makes a point, but all it does is validate KB's total NASCAR wins, which, while impressive, is just one (relatively minor) attribute of the way fans, and drivers define the criteria for an all time great.

What DW says is true, however it opens up a sort of transference bias; this "validated" attribute of Busch still isn't enough as it just one minor attribute used to define a status which seems to rely primarily on Sprint Cup success.
There's no objective definition, however the criteria seems to be a driver's cup career; most all time greats in NASCAR are statistically defined by their cup career. Therefor using Busch's success across all three series to define a status which primarily depends on cup stats makes him an outlier.
In stats, the mode and median are used most often as measures of central tendency, as they are less affected by outliers than the mean and range, allowing a a significant outlying score or stat to be..well, an outlier, and or basically ignored..just saying ;)

This all being said, I think the most objective way to truly stack him up against the greats is to focuss exclussively on his cup career. That's the point this thread: To predict and discuss Kyle's Sprint Cup legacy compared to other greats.

40 wins before 35 years old..still impressive
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Impressive, but by no means an accomplishment that would deem him the greatest.

People who claim KyBu is the greatest usually call upon his "ability to wheel a car" or something like that when making a claim to his greatness. How that claim is verified, I do not know, but it makes no sense to me. When he wins in Clint Bowyer's current quipment, let me know.
 
DSquad48 said:
Nice quote. DW has been riding Kyle's nuts for years and years.

Diminishing Petty's wins to try to pump up Kyle's truck victories. lol. If anything, that type of reasoning would serve Jeff's or even Jimmie's claim to being the best. Surely if the Trucks are harder than Petty's cup races, then the modern cup races are even harder.
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The fact is that a lot of Petty's wins came at tracks where there were few quality competitors. I'm not saying all were, he was obviously an amazing driver but based on how racing was back then, his record of 200 Cup wins is padded.
While Kyle may not be the "greatest," he's certainly among one of the greatest. He's not done yet.
 
I have been known not to put up with punk kids. Married with kid seems to have made him a bit more mature, only time will tell. In the mean time, I haven't heard of him doing much out of his own pocket.
 
^^ Your "Get Off My Lawn" sign notwithstanding, I'm sure you're a good person and charitable in nature.

Information regarding the philanthropic efforts of Mr. Busch and his racing peers is all over the Intergoogle.
 
My friend Scott Gruhl (Port Colbone's finest) scored 665 goals in professional hockey leagues in his career and Dave Michayluk has just under 600 goals as a pro hockey player. According to Shrub and his minions they should have been first ballot HOF'ers but they are not.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
My friend Scott Gruhl (Port Colbone's finest) scored 665 goals in professional hockey leagues in his career and Dave Michayluk has just under 600 goals as a pro hockey player. According to Shrub and his minions they should have been first ballot HOF'ers but they are not.
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Your "unbiased" opinion is tainted by your "Like" of @rocket dawg incoherent babble. The people with the hard on for Kyle's total wins tend to be the haters, um, oh I mean dislikers. "Minions" just like to watch him drive. Imagine that. Good race, bad race....doesn't matter, as long as there is a race, and Kyle is in it. Not as fun as watching empty stands or waiting for TV ratings, but it's what we are IMO.
 
BobbyFord said:
"...Let me try and put that in perspective without trying to make one guy look good versus making another guy look bad. That's not my point at all. Back before the modern era of NASCAR guys were winning races that don't even come close to what an XFINITY or Truck Series race is today.
Some of the races back then were very short, like a 100-miler. Some were on dirt while others were on concrete. We're talking about little tracks all over the country at a time in our sport when you could run, no lie, 60 or 70 races a year.
While I don't want to say it's unfair to compare numbers to numbers, Richard Petty and David Pearson had quality wins, but what Kyle Busch is doing is all quality wins. There's a ton of great competition in the XFINITY and Truck series. These drivers simply don't roll over because Kyle Busch is in the race. From a Truck, to an XFINITY series car, to a NASCAR Sprint Cup race, Kyle might win all three races in a weekend..."
-Darrell Waltrip
.
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Problem is that Petty's were in the one series and not bridged over different series like Kyle's is. Kyle is one heck of a racer and one of the greats, but I do have a problem with combining all his wins to count to the total and then used to compare to Petty's and for that matter the others.
 
Revman said:
Your "unbiased" opinion is tainted by your "Like" of @rocket dawg incoherent babble. The people with the hard on for Kyle's total wins tend to be the haters, um, oh I mean dislikers. "Minions" just like to watch him drive. Imagine that. Good race, bad race....doesn't matter, as long as there is a race, and Kyle is in it. Not as fun as watching empty stands or waiting for TV ratings, but it's what we are IMO.
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I think Shrub is a very good driver and have no issue with saying that at all because it is the truth. I have no problems in saying minions would like to watch him race slot cars or race in lower series because that is the truth. Saying Shrub's minor league wins should not be combined with cup wins is easier than falling in love because it is the truth.
 
oldgoat said:
Problem is that Petty's were in the one series and not bridged over different series like Kyle's is. Kyle is one heck of a racer and one of the greats, but I do have a problem with combining all his wins to count to the total and then used to compare to Petty's and for that matter the others.
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Then you also have to recognize that Petty didn't always face the level of competition in the Cup Series that drivers encounter today.
 
oldgoat said:
Problem is that Petty's were in the one series and not bridged over different series like Kyle's is. Kyle is one heck of a racer and one of the greats, but I do have a problem with combining all his wins to count to the total and then used to compare to Petty's and for that matter the others.
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As I have said before Shrub is an excellent racer and to deny that is to deny reality but combining victories across all Nascar's series is laughable and no fan of sport would even imagine such a thing. There are a few people that try and change the narrative and make it seem like a lower series win equals a cup win but the majority knows it doesn't pass the smell test. Shrub seems to have a localized group of childlike supporters who think he hung the moon which is problematic if you prefer reality.
 
BobbyFord said:
Then you also have to recognize that Petty didn't always face the level of competition in the Cup Series that drivers encounter today.
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RP has 60 lap fairground wins so at times he may have not even faced the level of competition Shrub sees today in the lower series. I am not going to crap all over the King so I usually leave him out when discussions of the GOAT are bandied about or his 200 wins are discussed.

Suffice it to say Shrub is not even in the same county as oldtimers like DW, Bobby, Cale and Dale or contemporaries like Jeff or Jimmie. Unfortunately because of rules changes Shrub will never have the opportunity to pass the old guys as they never had the benefit of free passes, double wreck restarts and wave arounds not to mention they had to win their champs over an entire season as opposed to a lottery. Even though the lottery gave Shrub an undeserved champ this method may actually hurt him in accumulating champs as he is good enough to win them legitimately.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
The argument of Kyle Bush's combined win total to Petty's Cup victories is just as asinine as the eventual 7th Cup Championship of Johnson's will be to season long Cup Championships by both Petty/Earnhardt. Apples and Oranges.
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One of my biggest disappointments with the lottery was it denied JJ and Chad the opportunity to win a legitimate 7th championship. When looking at the modern era Dale is without comparison and I realize there are members that don't care for him and RC but it doesn't take away from what he accomplished. He raced against quality opponents, did not have the benefit of free passes, wave arounds and double file restarts and had to get it done in every race he competed in unlike today.

When you think about his 76 legitimate wins (no overtime or GWC's or whatever they call it now) plus 7 legitimate championships that required effort every week and the 3 second place finishes he amassed it is easy to see why he was unparalleled in his time and even today.
 
BobbyFord said:
Then you also have to recognize that Petty didn't always face the level of competition in the Cup Series that drivers encounter today.
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You also then would have to recognize that Petty didn't always have all the technology and support that teams have today. It wasn't unusual to race one night and then drive all night to another track and pull the car off and run again. Many accounts of teams working in the parking lots or even the motel rooms to get ready. Take a lot at pictures of what the haulers were in the 60's and 70's and they were nothing compared to today. They didn't have another car to pull off that was as good as the one they were running. At best they would have a short track car or a speedway car. They have gone and pulled a old display car from a showing to get it back to racing trim. The drivers of today have their own airplanes and motorhomes and don't work on the cars where in the earlier days they were out there working as much as their support of maybe a few guys.
 
Petty Engineering (good choice of name) was at the front of the field in terms of resources and preparation for most of Richard's race wins.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
RP has 60 lap fairground wins so at times he may have not even faced the level of competition Shrub sees today in the lower series. I am not going to crap all over the King so I usually leave him out when discussions of the GOAT are bandied about or his 200 wins are discussed.

Suffice it to say Shrub is not even in the same county as oldtimers like DW, Bobby, Cale and Dale or contemporaries like Jeff or Jimmie. Unfortunately because of rules changes Shrub will never have the opportunity to pass the old guys as they never had the benefit of free passes, double wreck restarts and wave arounds not to mention they had to win their champs over an entire season as opposed to a lottery. Even though the lottery gave Shrub an undeserved champ this method may actually hurt him in accumulating champs as he is good enough to win them legitimately.
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IMO, Kyle Busch is every bit as good as anyone that's ever sat in a stock car.
With the current aero package, who is to say any of the oldtimers could even drive these cars competitively? Who is to say any of the current drivers would be fast in a Hudson?
You cannot compare eras, there is too much that has changed.
What is the criteria for GOAT? There cannot be a GOAT that encompasses 1948 - present.
 
BobbyFord said:
IMO, Kyle Busch is every bit as good as anyone that's ever sat in a stock car.
With the current aero package, who is to say any of the oldtimers could even drive these cars competitively? Who is to say any of the current drivers would be fast in a Hudson?
You cannot compare eras, there is too much that has changed.
What is the criteria for GOAT? There cannot be a GOAT that encompasses 1948 - present.
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You are correct that they are different eras and I kind of doubt that many of the current drivers would be able to run back in the early days without all the aids they have now. Of course it would also mean would they even do it if they weren't making big dollars like they are now let alone the safety equipment that they have now. I'm just saying that Petty got his wins by running the series he was in for a championship. People are wanting to lump in wins from other series to compare the wins for Kyle. The guy is a great driver and I've said and defended him many times for his talent. I just don't think that wins from all series should be lumped together to justify. Dale Sr. is probably the closest that I believe could justify saying he had the drive and talent to be able to do good over all the different styles of cars.
 
BobbyFord said:
Then you also have to recognize that Petty didn't always face the level of competition in the Cup Series that drivers encounter today.
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Plus, with the tight rules package that the teams have today vs when petty was driving makes the cars so even on performance now that an experienced driver can really make a difference in the outcome of the race. Back when Petty was driving it wasn't that uncommon for a car to have a major performance advantage over the rest of the field, was it? That would in turn make it easier to rack up wins if his did.
 
oldgoat said:
No problem with that part of it. Just the lumping of wins from multiple series together to try to compare to to those like Petty, Pearson and the others at the top of the win list.
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It's also unfair to compare a season with an opportunity to win 70+ races to a season with an opportunity to win only 36 races.
Apples to oranges.
 
Nitro Dude said:
Back when Petty was driving it wasn't that uncommon for a car to have a major performance advantage over the rest of the field, was it? That would in turn make it easier to rack up wins if his did.
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And his did. For years.
 
29-4 said:
I think limiting discussion to the so-called Modern Era is reasonable (1972-). Yes, there were fewer competitive cars than today, but the sport was largely professionalized by then, and the seasons were of comparable length (28-36 races every year). Here's the modern era top winners according to wikipedia:

Jeff Gordon 93
Darrell Waltrip84
Jimmie Johnson 78
Dale Earnhardt 76
Cale Yarborough 69
Richard Petty 60
Bobby Allison 55
Rusty Wallace 55
Tony Stewart 49
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It's difficult to even do that based on the number of years a particular driver has/had been racing. IOW, you can't compare Jeff Gordon to Kyle Larson.
If you want to talk about win percentage based on number of races run then Herb Thomas kicks all their asses. :D
  • Overall all-time winning percentage: [drivers with over 100 starts]:
    1. Herb Thomas -- 21.053% (48 wins, 228 starts)
    2. Tim Flock -- 20.856% (39/187)
    3. David Pearson -- 18.293% (105/574)
    4. Richard Petty -- 16.892% (200/1184)
    5. Fred Lorenzen -- 16.456% (26/158)
    6. Fireball Roberts -- 16.019% (33/206)
    7. Junior Johnson -- 15.974% (50/313)
    8. Cale Yarborough -- 14.821% (83/560)
    9. Jimmie Johnson -- 14.498% (78/538)
    10. Ned Jarrett -- 14.205% (50/352)
    11. Dick Hutcherson -- 13.592% (14/103)
    12. Lee Petty -- 12.646% (54/427)
    13. Fonty Flock -- 12.338%(19/154)
    14. Rex White -- 12.047% (28/233)
    15. Bobby Issac -- 12.013% (37/308)
    16. Bobby Allison -- 11.699% (84/718)
    17. Jeff Gordon -- 11.567% (93/804)
    18. Dale Earnhardt -- 11.243% (76/676)
    19. Joe Weatherly -- 10.890 (25/230)
    20. Darrell Waltrip -- 10.383% (84/809)
    (stats from Racing-reference.info and NASCAR Statistics and compiled weekly here)(10-16-2016)
 
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