Martin penalized 25 points for coil infraction

D

DEF3

Guest
Martin penalized 25 points for coil infraction
By Dave Rodman, Turner Sports Interactive November 4, 2002
5:05 PM EST (2205 GMT)

DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. -- For the second time in his career, a NASCAR Winston Cup point penalty will affect Mark Martin's hopes for a championship.

On Monday, NASCAR officials announced that Martin and his car owner Jack Roush were each docked 25 points in the Winston Cup driver and owner standings, respectively; and that crew chief Ben Leslie had been fined $5,000 for an unapproved left front spring that was found in Martin's No. 6 Viagra Ford following Sunday's Pop Secret 400 at North Carolina Speedway in Rockingham.

The infraction was discovered in post-race inspection and involved Section 12-4-Q in the NASCAR Winston Cup rule book: "Any determination by NASCAR officials that parts and/or equipment used in the event do not conform to NASCAR rules."

It is the third time Leslie has been fined this season and the second major penalty. Leslie was fined $50,000 after Martin's winning car was too low in post-race inspection following the Coca-Cola Racing Family 600. He was hit with a $1,000 fine for an unapproved window strap at Talladega in October.

NASCAR began issuing point penalties in July when it decided monetary fines were not making enough of an impact on teams.

Martin was fined 46 driver points in 1990 for an illegal carburetor spacer on his Roush Racing Ford that was discovered after the spring race at Richmond International Raceway. Martin lost the Winston Cup championship that year to Dale Earnhardt by 26 points.

Martin is now 112 points behind championship leader Tony Stewart, with two races remaining this season: This weekend at Phoenix International Raceway and Nov. 17 at Homestead-Miami Speedway.
 
Originally posted by DEF3

Martin was fined 46 driver points in 1990 for an illegal carburetor spacer on his Roush Racing Ford that was discovered after the spring race at Richmond International Raceway. Martin lost the Winston Cup championship that year to Dale Earnhardt by 26 points.  
Click to expand...

Almost true.

The spacer was not illegal, There was not one word in the rule book about what was on that car. Further, it was not proven to enhance the car's performance one horsepower. NASCAR justified the penalty by stating, "It was our opinion that without this piece on the car, he would have finished ninth." *******not an exact quote, but close enough*********

Before I get jumped, please not that the rules in 1990 as to engine tinkering were not quite as stringent as today's are. For instance, anyone who attended a race in that era knows that the Roush cars sounded different than any other car on the track. This was a result of a modified exhaust system they used in an effort to maximize performance, which is what I thought a car race was set up to do in the first place.

If there is no rule against it, and it is not proven to be an advantage, then the pena;ty IMO can be called nothing but arbitrary :bs: on the part of the Revered and Exalted Sanctioning Body. I thought so 12 years ago, and I still think so.

Now back to the regularly scheduled Roush bashing. :p
 
Consistent with recent rulings. 25 points and $5000 per spring. Seems to be the going rate.

Hate it for Mark, but.....:(
 
Originally posted by HardScrabble
Consistent with recent rulings. 25 points and $5000 per spring. Seems to be the going rate.

Hate it for Mark, but.....:(
Click to expand...

Consistant would have been doing it from the beginning of the year.Nascar should just go ahead and name a champion today also.:rolleyes:
 
Now he needs to borrow a car from someone else for the last few races.

That always is a good idea..... no .. wait that didnn't work either.. Well.... just soak the tires then.
 
Originally posted by TN-Ward-Fan
Almost true.

The spacer was not illegal, There was not one word in the rule book about what was on that car. Further, it was not proven to enhance the car's performance one horsepower.
Click to expand...


The spacer rule may not have been in the book, yet, but it was common knowledge to all what a loose spacer can do.....

Same with the spring- NASCAR doesn't have to prove it helped Mark one iota to penalize him......

Roush was and still is a cheater- same as most in the sport.....
 
Everyone is talking as if these 25 points are going to make or break Mark's bid for the Championship. I don't see where Tony has a lock on it yet.......one more race like yesterday's and he could be playing catch up!! But 71 said it best: "Suck it up and move on".:) A similar points reduction that happened 12 years ago has nothing to do with this run for Championship points. Someone at Roush screwed up (or cheated) and it was caught in the post race inspection........time to move on and race two more races to win the 2002 Winston Cup Championship. Bet that is exactly what Mark intends to do.:D
 
Well, I know it's "consistant" and all, but you have to feel for the drivers like Mark who are out there driving their tails off for a shot at the championship and something like this comes up. No way in heck that Mark said "Hey Ben, why don't you throw one of those illegal springs in there.....".
 
No Mark would never do something like that HH.........but someone, either screwed up or took it upon himself to cheat. I think it was a mistake........someone screwed up! But, Mark has to suffer........a shame, yes! Time to race two more races and dig deep for the points to win the Championship.

BTW.......Championship teams are noted for that digging deep when the chips are down.:)
 
Wouldn't it be amusing to see him lose the championship by like 22 points?
 
Break the rules, get caught, pay the penalty...regardless of how it all transpired.

Sorry MM.
 
That's right Windsor. For boneheaded moves like that he deserves to come in second again.
 
Originally posted by DEF3
Roush was and still is a cheater- same as most in the sport.....
Click to expand...

got that right. the olny drivers/owners that never chrated on there car (to mutch) RCR and Dale Earnhardt, they dont whine and they are the best owner/driver IMO.

IMO na$car has not been the same since 2/18/01 and will never be the same again.
 
I know that, according to HS, calling Lap naive for his above statements would be terrible...because he could be right ya know...and...I could learn something from his insight and all... :blink:
 
Originally posted by Lap3Forever
got that right. the olny drivers/owners that never chrated on there car (to mutch) RCR and Dale Earnhardt, they dont whine and they are the best owner/driver IMO.  

IMO na$car has not been the same since 2/18/01 and will never be the same again.
Click to expand...

Smoke another one pal.
 
ok i messed up, there are more that dont cheat. what i ment to say was, if they do cheat they dont get caught.

sorry if i made anyone mad, just messed up and forgot a few words like i do most of the time. sorry ya'll
 
I am laughing about what TN said too. Every team has to cheat because all the other teams are cheating too. They all try to find an advantage over the next competitor. It will never cease.
 
Well cheating or no cheating, there was no reason why Mark Martin's car should have had a spring in that car that wasn't approved by Nascar. That's the responsibility of the team, and they fell short this week and cost Martin a viable shot at the championship.

Hasn't this type of late-season infraction cost Roush before? Remember the controversial penalty against Greg Biffle in the truck series a few years ago?
 
I am not picking on you in particular, lapster. But how any sane person could honest to God make a statement that Sniffles Childress doesn't whine is so far beyond me, I can't put it into words.

He invented whining. Well, OK, Jaws invented it, but he dang sure perfected it.

As to never cheating...do NOT get me started. It's late, I've had a tough day, will have another one tomorrow, and I just don't have the energy or the inclination to go there.
 
Originally posted by paul
I know that, according to HS, calling Lap naive for his above statements would be terrible...because he could be right ya know...and...I could learn something from his insight and all... :blink:
Click to expand...

maby not that statement, but i have made a few ppl wonder on how smart i relly have. and i proved them wrong i am smart.

(i know that makes no sence eather but ohh well)
 
Originally posted by Lap3Forever
maby not that statement, but i have made a few ppl wonder on how smart i relly have. and i proved them wrong i am smart.  

(i know that makes no sence eather but ohh well)
Click to expand...

Again you lose me...
 
Originally posted by TN-Ward-Fan
I am not picking on you in particular, lapster.  But how any sane person could honest to God make a statement that Sniffles Childress doesn't whine is so far beyond me, I can't put it into words.

He invented whining.  Well, OK, Jaws invented it, but he dang sure perfected it.  

As to never cheating...do NOT get me started.  It's late, I've had a tough day, will have another one tomorrow, and I just don't have the energy or the inclination to go there.
Click to expand...

sorry dont want to start anything, but a bout 5-7 ppl here just read that and laphed. i have olny heared RCR while a few times, and that was after nascar wanted ford and dodge to win. and Mr. France bleds ford Blue. and Dodge Red. IOO (in our opp.)

as i said dont want to start anything, you belive your way and i belive my way, thats why there race because not eveyone sees eye to eye.
 
You people have it all wrong.
It was the manufactorers fault.
This spring did not cause Mark to run so good.
if you will read more articles you will see Ben leslie opened another box after the race and that too was found illegal.The manufactorer screwed up ITS A SHAME THEY ARE PENTALIZED for something they didnt do.No points should have been taken away since it was in no way there fault.If mark does lose the championship by 24 points I am going to raise mighty hell!!!I still say conspiracy!!
 
Originally posted by danjay6
You people have it all wrong.
It was the manufactorers fault.
This spring did not cause Mark to run so good.
if you will read more articles you will see Ben leslie opened another box after the race and that too was found illegal.The manufactorer screwed up ITS A SHAME THEY ARE PENTALIZED for something they didnt do.No points should have been taken away since it was in no way there fault.If mark does lose the championship by 24 points I am going to raise mighty hell!!!I still say conspiracy!!
Click to expand...

The article on NOL says that Leslie found the spring in PRE race, he then got another spring off the truck and it too failed.

Benny Ertel, Martin's business manager, said Leslie had taken the questionable spring off the team's transporter Sunday morning, fresh out of the box and put it on the car. After the spring was questioned in inspection, Ertel said Leslie got another new spring off the truck, took it from its package and it, too, failed to pass.


If they knew it was questionable, why did they run it? Just curious.
 
I still say it's a load of crap to penalize a team points for running something straight out of the box, then saying it doesn't pass muster. What do they expect these teams to do, build the cars from scratch? How is it a team's fault if the part is not up to NASCAR rules right out of the box?

Taking another one to NASCAR and it failing is all the team can do to show they had no intent to bend a rule.

Oh well. Second verse, same as the first I reckon.
 
TNWF. why wouldn't they find a spring that would pass inspection, since they found it before they actually raced it? That is where I am getting so confused. I guess the other question I have is did the penalty come down in post ract inspection? Or was this one of those penalties caught in prerace?
 
I look for them to put one of those cartoon statues in front of Marks car next week,and tell him he is to short to get on the ride. :p
 
Originally posted by mlitefan01
TNWF. why wouldn't they find a spring that would pass inspection, since they found it before they actually raced it?  That is where I am getting so confused.  I guess the other question I have is did the penalty come down in post ract inspection? Or was this one of those penalties caught in prerace?
Click to expand...

Post race from all I gather.

As to part one, the point I am trying to get across is just that. The springs came from the manufacturer out of compliance it appears. I am o mechanical genius, so maybe one of the resident tech heads can shed some light on it. My understanding is as follows:

1. The team took the spring out of the box that fit their needs for that day and installed it on the car.

2. A race ensued.

3. After the race, NASCAR determined said spring to be out od compliance with the rules.

4. A representative from Roush Racing then got another new, in the box spring from the team's supply and took that spring to NASCAR to inspect, in an effort to show that it was not something the team did to circumvent the rules.

5. Spring Two likewise failed.

Point 5 is my sticking point. If they are not right when they land on the team's war wagon, how can the team be held responsible for that? Short of building their own springs and God knows how many other parts.
 
Originally posted by TN-Ward-Fan
Post race from all I gather.

As to part one, the point I am trying to get across is just that.  The springs came from the manufacturer out of compliance it appears.  I am o mechanical genius, so maybe one of the resident tech heads can shed some light on it.  My understanding is as follows:

1.  The team took the spring out of the box that fit their needs for that day and installed it on the car.

2.  A race ensued.

3.  After the race, NASCAR determined said spring to be out od compliance with the rules.

4.  A representative from Roush Racing then got another new, in the box spring from the team's supply and took that spring to NASCAR to inspect, in an effort to show that it was not something the team did to circumvent the rules.

5.  Spring Two likewise failed.

Point 5 is my sticking point.  If they are not right when they land on the team's war wagon, how can the team be held responsible for that?  Short of building their own springs and God knows how many other parts.
Click to expand...


I guess the teams will have to watch the parts they use more carefully. Too bad really, I was looking forward to a decent points battle at the end of the season. I think I heard that Stewart only needs 11th or better to win it.
 
I will try to explain the "in the box" parts issue as best I can.

The team is ultimately responsible for every single part that is used on the race car. This includes everthing from the lug nuts to the numbers displayed on the roof. There are a few exceptions such as the transponders used for timing and scoring, the data recorders now required for crash analysis, the restrictor plates where required, and the rear shocks and springs at the restirictor plate tracks. These parts are issued by NASCAR and are the property of NASCAR.

The tires are supplied by Goodyear specific to each track, but the team is fully reponsible for insuring that left side and right side tires are not mounted on the car incorrectly.

Union76 supplies the fuel, the team is responsible for insuring that it is not in any way different from the what is dispensed at the track pumps.

There may a few other minor things but that is it for the most part.

A new "in the box part" is not guaranteed by NASCAR to conform to its specifications in any way. Any such guarantee is strictly between the manufacturer and the team. If the part is non-conforming it is the teams responsibility to be aware of that fact. If NASCAR has the ability to inspect these parts for conformance, so do the teams.

For example, NASCAR now mandates that all pistons must weigh at least 400 grams. It is possible to purchase a new piston weighing less than that minimum. If ya use it, it is illegal. If the box in which it is shipped is labeled "400 grams" and it weighs 395 grams it is still illegal.

Does any of this mean that the #6 team intentionally sought a performance advantage with the springs on Sunday? No it does not. But the responsibility for their use lies with the team. It cannot logically lie elsewhere as the team is the only entity competing in the race, the manufacturer is simply a supplier.

I hope this helps a little in understanding the ruling, whether you agree with it or not is a completely different issue.:)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom