"New" restarts vs. "Old" restarts

DUN24

DUN24

Skeptical of the Spectacle
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So I've kind of been thinking about this for awhile.. but after watching the 24 passing cars in the top 10 over and over again, yet trapped two laps down waiting for an off sequence caution that happen, I've got some sh!t to say!!!


I'm probably in the minority here, but I'm not a fan of double file restarts, for a couple of reasons.....


A) a lot of tracks have a massively preferred line. Killing restart chances for either even or oddly positioned drivers... Creating a bullsh*t Brian France lottery.

C)"racing" your lap back is a whole lot more respectable than just not pitting and getting to drive around the pace car...

C) Watching leaders deal with lap cars while trying to take advantage of fresh tires is exciting. And when a fast car gets trapped he can make big moves on restarts...

I can go on but you get the point.

Thoughts?
 
I think in terms of excitement, double file restarts can add quite a bit if the race is long and boring, but at the same time, I feel that it can certainly ruin a drivers night if there's an accident up ahead and they can't see it. I am fine with this.

As far as the lucky dog goes, I'm fine with that too. 10 years ago, If my driver went down a lap, he was pretty much screwed unless he had an amazing car. Now, drivers can take the wave around but risk their tires/fuel because they aren't able to pit. Or if they have a lucky dog position can get their lap back and pit. I think it adds a bit of strategy to the race. I'm all for these changes.

But, as far as the new points system etc..win and you're in, I'm not a big fan of that. But, we'll see how it goes as this season winds down.
 
I prefer single-file for your first reason - a lot of tracks have the outside as the racing line but NASCAR doesn't adjust to this for odd-numbered restart positions so we get drivers playing games and slowing down on pit road. Jimmie actually stopped dead before the exit last week at Bristol because of this. I'd rather have every odd-numbered restarter get lane choice or go to single-file altogether.
 
I don't mind the double file restart with one exception. I would allow the second place car the option of move along side of 1st place car (like now) or stay behind behind it.
 
Jonesi said:
I don't mind the double file restart with one exception. I would allow the second place car the option of move along side of 1st place car (like now) or stay behind behind it.
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Interesting. I would say they should do that for every row but that would create a logistics nightmare and a whole lot of Hornaday restarts.
 
DUN24 said:
Interesting. I would say they should do that for every row but that would create a logistics nightmare and a whole lot of Hornaday restarts.
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It's actually not a logistics nightmare at all. I can say that with confidence because short tracks across the nation do it every week and call them "cone restarts." Line 'em up single file. Put a cone in the middle of the track at S/F. If you want inside, go left. Outside, go right.
 
DUN24 said:
Interesting. I would say they should do that for every row but that would create a logistics nightmare and a whole lot of Hornaday restarts.
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So your against the leader of the race having the advantage at the restarts. And it sounds like you liked it when there were lapped cars alongside lead lap cars. Would you like to see NA$CAR go to on the 1st restart after the start the leader can choose the inside if he likes, then on the next restart the leader has to pick outside lane then the next restart, the leader has to take the inside lane, next the outside lane, next the inside lane, next the outside lane and so forth. Or do you want to see inverted restates every restart?

I like the restarts the way they are now. Guess NA$CAR could have a restart patch so both lanes are more equal.
 
Double file restarts and go at the line. If the leader wants to play games and gets burnt on the start, so be it. Same for the 2nd place starter. Why would anyone want to see the element of excitement that double file restarts removed from the race format? Most of the best racing comes after a restart of the race. New restart wins hands down IMO.
 
ztevans said:
It's actually not a logistics nightmare at all. I can say that with confidence because short tracks across the nation do it every week and call them "cone restarts." Line 'em up single file. Put a cone in the middle of the track at S/F. If you want inside, go left. Outside, go right.
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I like this option the best and if the 2nd place car wants to start in 3rd due to lane choice etc let it happen. With the exception being for RP tracks (to limit teamwork or staging team drafting lines among the super teams).

I really don't care much for the lucky dogs and wave arounds but it was necessary after eliminating racing back to flag. Especially with the way pit road is managed, the lead lap cars pit first and then the lapped cars the next lap.
Under that scenario a lapped car could be very close to the leader and honestly making up a lap, but loose all of that hard earned track position. due to pit road management. He could be 5th in track position behind the leader with the first lapped car being 4th, he doesn't get the lucky dog and is regulated back to something like p25 in track position due to the protocol.
So a lapped car does unfairly loose track position.
I would award the lucky dog to cars one lap down, and another one to the car multiple laps down with the best track position. It isnt pure or always fair but the best compensation I can think of given the parameters.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Double file restarts and go at the line. If the leader wants to play games and gets burnt on the start, so be it. Same for the 2nd place starter. Why would anyone want to see the element of excitement that double file restarts removed from the race format? Most of the best racing comes after a restart of the race. New restart wins hands down IMO.
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Because the top line was absolute crap at Atlanta?
 
Greg said:
I like this option the best and if the 2nd place car wants to start in 3rd due to lane choice etc let it happen. With the exception being for RP tracks (to limit teamwork or staging team drafting lines among the super teams).

I really don't care much for the lucky dogs and wave arounds but it was necessary after eliminating racing back to flag. Especially with the way pit road is managed, the lead lap cars pit first and then the lapped cars the next lap.
Under that scenario a lapped car could be very close to the leader and honestly making up a lap, but loose all of that hard earned track position. due to pit road management. He could be 5th in track position behind the leader with the first lapped car being 4th, he doesn't get the lucky dog and is regulated back to something like p25 in track position due to the protocol.
So a lapped car does unfairly loose track position.
I would award the lucky dog to cars one lap down, and another one to the car multiple laps down with the best track position. It isnt pure or always fair but the best compensation I can think of given the parameters.
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There are some other alternatives I like better but they would never be accepted by the masses: Stop waiting and needlessly keeping pit road closed at the beginning of the caution. Once the caution is thrown I get not letting cars dive in to get the better position on the leader who has already taken the caution at the flag stand and beyond pit road entrance.

But the first time around by pit road the leader should be able to enter pit road without waiting for race control to allow everyone to catch up. The practice may have been necessary with old scoring systems but with today's electronics it should not be a problem. It shouldn't be a safety issue either pit road entrance can be closed if a safe entrance is compromised. We should be able to chew gum and walk.

Under that system lapped cars could enter pit road based on track position without waiting a lap, and everyone could line up the way they come out of the pits. There could always be a provision to segerate the lapped car pits with less than a 100 miles to go when lapped cars being in the way is a bigger issue.

Such a system would make lucky dogs and wave arounds unjustified imo and better. But folks likes artificially tightening up the feild to much to allow for natural racing.
 
FLRacingFan said:
I prefer single-file for your first reason - a lot of tracks have the outside as the racing line but NASCAR doesn't adjust to this for odd-numbered restart positions so we get drivers playing games and slowing down on pit road. Jimmie actually stopped dead before the exit last week at Bristol because of this. I'd rather have every odd-numbered restarter get lane choice or go to single-file altogether.
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Odd number lane choice just shuffles the problem around. It's still a crap shoot. I would like to see lane choice for the entire field.
sooner or later, the crap line is shorter and cars start going there to pick up positions. Then they have to hold them on the restart, so they'll have to earn it. Strategy and a little excitement.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
Single file & when the flagman drops the green flag everyone goes at the same time. As soon as the flag drops you can pass, no more waiting to cross the line to pass. No more restart box. Flagman controls the restarts, not the leader.
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this. sounds very easy to police too.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
All part of the deal. They are all on the same track. On most all tracks there is a preferred lane to start in. There's nothing new with last weekends race.
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Sounds like the guy restarting 3rd gets a better shake than the guy starting 2nd.
 
blue92 said:
So your against the leader of the race having the advantage at the restarts. And it sounds like you liked it when there were lapped cars alongside lead lap cars. Would you like to see NA$CAR go to on the 1st restart after the start the leader can choose the inside if he likes, then on the next restart the leader has to pick outside lane then the next restart, the leader has to take the inside lane, next the outside lane, next the inside lane, next the outside lane and so forth. Or do you want to see inverted restates every restart?

I like the restarts the way they are now. Guess NA$CAR could have a restart patch so both lanes are more equal.
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I'm more against the guys three rows back having the advantage. a totally fair shake would be like back in the day with all the lead lap cars in the same line, the faster cars always made it interesting.


We all watched back when they had traditional restarts, they were still exciting, just not a full blown lottery half the time.


Also yes, the restart zone is dumb. All drivers hit the throttle when the flag man goes green.


Thanks for the input everyone.
 
KevinWI said:
Sounds like the guy restarting 3rd gets a better shake than the guy starting 2nd.
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Again, nothing new. Sometimes that is the case.

In a recent race Jimmie Johnson was shown slowing down on pit road to gain either an even or odd starting spot for just that very reason. May have been Michigan? This is all part of racing and maybe I'm the odd man out here but I like it. I like all of the strategy that goes into this sport. These teams are all on the same playing field here and they know the deal.
 
In a recent race Jimmie Johnson was shown slowing down on pit road to gain either an even or odd starting spot for just that very reason. May have been Michigan? This is all part of racing and maybe I'm the odd man out here but I like it. I like all of the strategy that goes into this sport. These teams are all on the same playing field here and they know the deal.
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I noticed during the Atlanta race that Johnson was 4th and Danica 5th when a caution came out; when the field formed up Danica was 4th and Johnson 5th (it could be that scoring wasn't current). Is Johnson smart enough to have anticipated what was about to happen and was thinking how use the situation change his starting position?
 
Zerkfitting said:
I noticed during the Atlanta race that Johnson was 4th and Danica 5th when a caution came out; when the field formed up Danica was 4th and Johnson 5th (it could be that scoring wasn't current). Is Johnson smart enough to have anticipated what was about to happen and was thinking how use the situation change his starting position?
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never under estimate
images
 
They use this rule in their lower series like the K&N Pro Series and Canadian Tire Series. Some of those events are on .25 mile tracks, so it usually completely screws the guy on the outside pretty bad. Usually they are better off being in 3rd than in 2nd if a caution is going to come out with the crazy restarts. More entertaining for the fans though i guess, so i don;t know. I'm ok with either way
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Again, nothing new. Sometimes that is the case.

In a recent race Jimmie Johnson was shown slowing down on pit road to gain either an even or odd starting spot for just that very reason. May have been Michigan? This is all part of racing and maybe I'm the odd man out here but I like it. I like all of the strategy that goes into this sport. These teams are all on the same playing field here and they know the deal.
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That is messed up when a driver wants to have a slower pit stop.
Just let him give up the undesirable lane, and start one row back in the lane he prefers. I don't get the idea that a car that is one position back is allowed to have a more desirable restarting position. The leader should have the best starting position, 2nd place should have the 2nd best position etc. If the second place car believes he is better served to start in p3 directly behind the leader he should have that right imo without any pit road shenanigans.
 
DUN24 said:
We all watched back when they had traditional restarts, they were still exciting, just not a full blown lottery half the time.
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So you saying you liked it better when lapped cars that aren't handling as good as the leader to start along side them so they can crash them out? That's more exciting? You one of those that watch NA$CAR for the wrecks?
DUN24 said:
Also yes, the restart zone is dumb.
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That's not what I was saying. What I ment by restart zone was NA$CAR grind down the restart zone so there's traction for both starting lanes.
 
blue92 said:
So you saying you liked it better when lapped cars that aren't handling as good as the leader to start along side them so they can crash them out? That's more exciting? You one of those that watch NA$CAR for the wrecks?



That's not what I was saying. What I ment by restart zone was NA$CAR grind down the restart zone so there's traction for both starting lanes.
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Wow, easy with the passive aggressiveness, Linda.. No, that's not what I'm saying. If you read post no. 1, you'll see that I liked that when contenders would get a lap or more down, they could haveRACE their way back.


Also, that last part wasn't a direct reference to you, it was a response to an earlier post.
 
DUN24 said:
Wow, easy with the passive aggressiveness, Linda.. No, that's not what I'm saying. If you read post no. 1, you'll see that I liked that when contenders would get a lap or more down, they could haveRACE their way back.


Also, that last part wasn't a direct reference to you, it was a response to an earlier post.
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Wut?
 
dun .......no worries.

after atlanta....nascar will add this yr's " 2014 special gordon rule " for chase races !

"lil jeffie lucky dog " .......just in case he goes a lap down ! :D
 
hawg dawg said:
dun .......no worries.

after atlanta....nascar will add this yr's " 2014 special gordon rule " for chase races !

"lil jeffie lucky dog " .......just in case he goes a lap down ! :D
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Oh pleeeeeeeeeze haha
 
Greg said:
That is messed up when a driver wants to have a slower pit stop.
Just let him give up the undesirable lane, and start one row back in the lane he prefers. I don't get the idea that a car that is one position back is allowed to have a more desirable restarting position. The leader should have the best starting position, 2nd place should have the 2nd best position etc. If the second place car believes he is better served to start in p3 directly behind the leader he should have that right imo without any pit road shenanigans.
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So, is it just the second place guy or do we let everyone choose which lane they want by the running order? What running position does that practice stop at? Just the second place guy? Top 10? 20? Maybe we could do a fan vote after each caution? That, sounds messed up. We'd be watching these teams take extra caution laps while the field all decide where they'd like to start.

Okay, maybe the fan vote is a bit much? Boy, I sure hope Brian or one of his cronies aren't reading this.
 
I just have to wonder where the heck has everyone been that they never noticed that there was an advantage in one lane or another on restarts? We've been doing this for 5 years now and it's now some sort of issue that we have to change back?

Plain and simple, single file restarts sucked. We saw year after year in the All Star race the double file restarts and liked them. Not all but most fans wanted to see them throughout the year and NASCAR did just that. We see some great racing because of it. Some tracks more than others there is a more preferred line. That's not transparent to the teams/drivers.

Some driver or drivers whine about it and all of the sudden it becomes the latest emergency in the sport. Something that has to be changed. Maybe the drivers need to quit whining about it and do something about it. Be the leader of the race when the caution comes out. Then they'll have there choice.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
I just have to wonder where the heck has everyone been that they never noticed that there was an advantage in one lane or another on restarts? We've been doing this for 5 years now and it's now some sort of issue that we have to change back?
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I can't believe nobody brought up Brad Keselowski's spat at Talladega last year when David Ragan won.

http://espn.go.com/racing/nascar/cu...eselowski-apologizes-twitter-rant-david-ragan

Pretty much proves in two weeks we'll completely forget about this and find something else to complain about.
 
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