The New and Improved Allmendinger Thread

[HoneyBadger]

As I was saying

I'm glad Allmendinger's going through the Road to Recovery program, but I still believe human error can be made and stand by my point that NASCAR should be open to having a second lab test results before essentially giving a driver or crew member the death penalty.

 

[FenderBumper]

OK, you beat me to it. I was going to name it the AJ trail of tears revival.

I agree with the second lab route. If it just looks better, why not do it?

 

[HoneyBadger]

OK, you beat me to it. I was going to name it the AJ trail of tears revival.

I agree with the second lab route. If it just looks better, why not do it?

Yep. It's NASCAR's policy and they put it entirely in someone else's hands.

 

[FenderBumper]

Yep. It's NASCAR's policy and they put it entirely in someone else's hands.

I don't think it's any different than other sports, other than the number of compounds tested for.

 

[MOEJOE]

What if they find it in his dietary supplement?

 

[Joniki]

NASCAR has made that "road to recovery" so difficult AJ is most likely done.

By the way Andy, you are a sucker for punishment.

 

[HoneyBadger]

I don't think it's any different than other sports, other than the number of compounds tested for.

All it takes is one high profile dispute and the media doing their job, instead of just taking NASCAR's word for it, for people to realize human error exists and that a lab, like Aegis, has too much to lose in admitting a mistake in a high profile case. But I'm not going to go back to that Situation Normal.

 

[HoneyBadger]

NASCAR has made that "road to recovery" so difficult AJ is most likely done.

That's why I refer to it as a death penalty.

Zero tolerance policies have no place in society. Most of the time, a "zero tolerance" policy is simply a knee-jerk reaction to an incident.

 

[MOEJOE]

NANOGRAMS. how big is that?

 

[MOEJOE]

That's why I refer to it as a death penalty.

Zero tolerance policies have no place in society. Most of the time, a "zero tolerance" policy is simply a knee-jerk reaction to an incident.

Like when I spill hot coffee on my wife when she's sleeping? I'm still alive, aren't I?

 

[mike honcho]

All it takes is one high profile dispute and the media doing their job, instead of just taking NASCAR's word for it, for people to realize human error exists and that a lab, like Aegis, has too much to lose in admitting a mistake in a high profile case. But I'm not going to go back to that Situation Normal.

So how many negative test results do you blame on Human Error?Or is it just the Positive test results for NASCAR Drivers?????

 

[HoneyBadger]

So how many negative test results do you blame on Human Error?Or is it just the Positive test results for NASCAR Drivers?????

All I'm saying is there's always room for error, no matter how exact a science may otherwise be. A failed drug test in NASCAR is a death sentence.

 

[FenderBumper]

So how many negative test results do you blame on Human Error?Or is it just the Positive test results for NASCAR Drivers?????

It's not a matter of blame at all. dpk seems to feel the same about someone being blamed. The idea is to recognize the potential for mistakes, then find a way to avoid those mistakes resulting in the end of a drivers career.

 

[FenderBumper]

Try to look at it this way Mike. You have total faith in the collection and testing process. What's the problem with having a second lab confirm results? Since the procedures are 100% accurate, the results will always be the same for both labs.

...but, when they aren't....

 

[mike honcho]

OK I get it now .Every positive drug test for a NASCAR Driver is a mistake due to human error.Silly of me to think that positive test results may mean they got busted taking something they shouldn't have.

 

[HoneyBadger]

Fender, this one's all yours. I'm not going to allow my mission to civilize be derailed.

 

[mike honcho]

Try to look at it this way Mike. You have total faith in the collection and testing process. What's the problem with having a second lab confirm results? Since the procedures are 100% accurate, the results will always be the same for both labs.

...but, when they aren't....

I don't have a problem with them doing that but that's not how they do it.

 

[HoneyBadger]

I don't have a problem with them doing that but that's not how they do it.

I'm not going to rehash the beaten Mayfield carcass again but, while I do believe (due to new evidence) that he was suspended for good cause, that case created enough doubt... so much, in fact, that NASCAR changed the policy.

 

[mike honcho]

So every A sample that is positive is due to human error?

 

[HoneyBadger]

So every A sample that is positive is due to human error?

No. But checks and balances, especially when it comes to someone's entire career, are never a bad thing.

 

[FenderBumper]

This is probably the best argument for a seperate validation lab.

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nascar/...ndinger-drug-tests-suspension-substance-abuse

If a second lab had validated Aegis, no reasonable media wouldbother printing what he says. Face it folks, reasonable people STILL have doubts about what Mayfield was or wasn't doing back in 2009.

 

[FenderBumper]

So every A sample that is positive is due to human error?

No. Do you accept the possability that a false positive can occure?

 

[Joniki]

Ragan said Allmendinger knew since July 7 when he was informed of testing positive that it was an amphetamine — she listed cocaine, methamphetamine and Ecstasy among drugs that were ruled out — but had been awaiting more information from testing on what type.

"We're going to get with Dr. Black and have him walk us through this," Ragan said. "He can say, 'It could be this or it's not this or any combination of things you have from over the counter.' If that's the case, then we don't really need to do (independent testing). Now that we have access to Dr. Black, that's a resource we're going to use to have him give that information.
"We made a decision that the No. 1 goal is to get A.J. back behind the wheel as quickly as possible. Testing takes a long time; longer than anyone wants. We expected to have more information and still don't have it. So let's exhaust every resource that can help us get into that car as quickly as possible."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/moto...ndinger-agrees-to-recovery-program/56483338/1

 

[FenderBumper]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/moto...ndinger-agrees-to-recovery-program/56483338/1

AJ's career is toast. He's been labeled a drug USER who attempted to race under the influence, and signing the RTR is confirmation. He doesn't have the raw talent necessary to get another top ride in NASCAR. I doubt he even gets in a marginal cup car again. Some NW team may take the chance, but it's going to take some luck.

 

[HoneyBadger]

So every A sample that is positive is due to human error?

Reasonable people question motive all the time. If reasonable people didn't question authority, the internet would be regulated beyond our wildest dreams at this very moment.

 

[HoneyBadger]

AJ's career is toast. He's been labeled a drug USER who attempted to race under the influence, and signing the RTR is confirmation. He doesn't have the raw talent necessary to get another top ride in NASCAR. I doubt he even gets in a marginal cup car again. Some NW team may take the chance, but it's going to take some luck.

Shane Hmiel got a second chance. But Shane Hmiel had a ton of talent..... shame he wasted it.

 

[HoneyBadger]

AJ's career is toast. He's been labeled a drug USER who attempted to race under the influence, and signing the RTR is confirmation. He doesn't have the raw talent necessary to get another top ride in NASCAR. I doubt he even gets in a marginal cup car again. Some NW team may take the chance, but it's going to take some luck.

However, in Allmendinger's defense (re:signing RTR), I think it became obvious in the Mayfield SNAFU that, even if there is reasonable doubt, you're not going to be able to clear your name. And rational people know there was, and still is, doubt in the Mayfield episode.

 

[mike honcho]

No. Do you accept the possability that a false positive can occure?

Yeah.I had one happen to me before.Retested the sample again by same people came back negative.But that's been years ago.I think they got this stuff down now and False positive are far and few between.Not every time a NASCAR Driver tests for it.

 

[HoneyBadger]

Yeah.I had one happen to me before.Retested the sample again by same people came back negative.But that's been years ago.I think they got this stuff down now and False positive are far and few between.Not every time a NASCAR Driver tests for it.

NOBODY

EVER

SAID

EVERY

POSITIVE

TEST

IS

A

FALSE

POSITIVE!

 

[HoneyBadger]

Now I have a splitting headache... that brick wall hurt.

 

[Joniki]

I wonder how many times a year Helton gets tested.

 

[HoneyBadger]

I wonder how many times a year Helton gets tested.

Or Brian France. His drug use is fairly common knowledge.

 

[FenderBumper]

Yeah.I had one happen to me before.Retested the sample again by same people came back negative.But that's been years ago.I think they got this stuff down now and False positive are far and few between.Not every time a NASCAR Driver tests for it.

So you have complete faith that they don't happen anymore? OK. Most people don't, and for good reason. Your company admitted their error. I don't think Aegis can afford to because of all the law enforcement work they do. They admit an error, and every person convicted on evidence from Aegis has a shot at an appeal.

Having a seperate lab confirm results makes it much closer to 100% sure, and takes away any chance of some person covering up a mistake THEY made.

 

[Joniki]

In entering the program, Allmendinger forfeited the right to appeal NASCAR's ban.

Gone in 60 seconds.

 

[mike honcho]

So you have complete faith that they don't happen anymore? OK. Most people don't, and for good reason. Your company admitted their error. I don't think Aegis can afford to because of all the law enforcement work they do. They admit an error, and every person convicted on evidence from Aegis has a shot at an appeal.

Having a seperate lab confirm results makes it much closer to 100% sure, and takes away any chance of some person covering up a mistake THEY made.

So far and few between means they don't happen anymore????

 

[dpkimmel2001]

It's not a matter of blame at all. dpk seems to feel the same about someone being blamed. The idea is to recognize the potential for mistakes, then find a way to avoid those mistakes resulting in the end of a drivers career.

First, thanks for the shout out in the all new and improved Allmendinger Thread. There must have been some bad stuff going on last night. I'm not really sure of what was meant by the blame comment. I'm not blaming anyone for anything.

My only point is that from what I researched yesterday the procedure that is used a Aegis is the same that is used by the facility that does the drug testing for the NFL, MLB, NBA, NCAA, PGA, etc..... Unfortunately my hard work yesterday was lost with the demise of the original thread and whatever the heck happened later in the day. The links were in there and they showed that the collection/testing processes we nearly identical across all major sports. Things can always be done differently. Sure they can use two labs. NASCAR and other sports don't do that. Whether it would be better or not, I don't know. There must be a reason that it is done the way it is and again it isn't just NASCAR/Aegis. It's professional sports across the board. If NASCAR/Aegis were the only ones that practiced this procedure then I'd probably of the same thought as you. Certainly people can make mistakes. Does transporting a 'B' sample to another lab and subjecting it to even more peoples interaction cause a concern for further contamination. That can be highly debatable too. There is a good and bad to every idea.

 

[ted@economy]

I just love the 'what if people' . My wife is a 'what if person' . She would love this thread . Here's the problem . When you go down that road , there is no end . A second test could be wrong so everyone calls for a third , etc.etc. Just going down the road gives credibility to the original fears that noone can be trusted .Thankfully AJ , and everyone else ,except maybe Jeremy , has admitted guilt and moved on . The science involved in the testing is idiotproof . If a contaminate did get in ,like fly poop , or dust , what are the odds that it would contain a banned substance in levels high enough to make a positive test ? But heh , I 'm always on the losing side at home too.

 

[SST55]

1-3-5 years from now we read that Aegis has lost it's accreditation due to a technicians mishandling of a number of samples. Now where do those who were suspended go to get their reputaions and jobs back? Don't say that will never happen, no test is 100% accurate 100% of the time especially when there's human hands involved.
The A sample should be split and tested at two seperate labs. Same as the B sample. I mentioned testing of the B should be done at two seperate labs in the old thread.
This is like the death penalty, theres no 'my bad do overs'.

 

[Johali]

Sheesh, my head is starting to hurt again. See yall at the brickyard.

 

[FenderBumper]

I'm not really sure of what was meant by the blame comment. I'm not blaming anyone for anything.

Neither am I, but you kept coming up with the false impression that I thought their may be something sinister going on in the system. Other sports are totally different. A race car driver who is found to have mind altering drugs in his system on race weekend is a person who is endangering lives. How does that apply to an NFL, MLB or whatever other sport you can name? Those players regularly come back from positive results, but Randy Lajoie is still on the outs 2 years after smoking a joint. It's an entirely different standard in motorsports, so the stick and ball analogy doesn't apply at all. What's 'good enough' for them just doesn't cut it when lives are at stake, because the career reprocussions for a false positive are so much greater.

I just love the 'what if people' . My wife is a 'what if person' . She would love this thread . Here's the problem . hen you go down that road , there is no end . A second test could be wrong so everyone calls for a third , etc.etc. Just going down the road gives credibility to the original fears that noone can be trusted .

The attitude expressed in bold is the whole problem, IMO. Any system that requires blind faith that can never be questioned is a flawed system. If Aegis TRUELY believes their system is flawless, why the fear of testing that theory? Because nobody can take a chance that the system will be questioned. You yourself have provided the motive for a lab to cover up human error in the testing of an A sample. If the B sample comes back clean, people will question the system. Meanwhile, some poor drivers career is ruined in the name of protecting the system. I'm not talking about AJ or anyone else in particular, I just know there are false positives in the testing industry.

For any scientific organization to rule out human error in the current system is pure arrogance.

In the old thread, I provided a long list of steps in the system where human error could occure, and it wasn't even a complete list. Production of sterile piss cups, identifying labels on the container, using one container, proper maintenance and calibration of test equiptment, etc, etc. With a parrallel system, there is no chance 1 error would be duplicated by another error at a different lab. If results don't match across the entire spectrum, both retest sample A using supervisors and different equiptment. Then the problem or error is corrected BEFORE anyone has a chance to question the system.

There's a reason there are 12 people on a jury. Humans aren't perfect.