What's more important, the car or the driver?

One things that I think is being overlooked here is that the best driver end up in the best equipment because they're the best. Never mind switching Jimmie and Cole Whitt....Jimmie Johnson would never be in Cole Whitt's car because he is a better driver and is more deserving of a top car in the series. I also think that without the right crew chief and team around a driver they won't do much but there is a reason that certain drivers make it to the top teams.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
One things that I think is being overlooked here is that the best driver end up in the best equipment because they're the best. Never mind switching Jimmie and Cole Whitt....Jimmie Johnson would never be in Cole Whitt's car because he is a better driver and is more deserving of a top car in the series. I also think that without the right crew chief and team around a driver they won't do much but there is a reason that certain drivers make it to the top teams.
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Danica in Cup, Dakoda Armstrong in Nationwide...some people have good rides just because they bring money to the table. And Jimmie didn't light it up in Nationwide either. He was very fortunate to have Gordon notice him at a test session (at Darlington, I believe).
 
If you like the driver the equation sez 80 % driver, if not the equation sez 80% car.
 
FLRacingFan said:
Danica in Cup, Dakoda Armstrong in Nationwide...some people have good rides just because they bring money to the table. And Jimmie didn't light it up in Nationwide either. He was very fortunate to have Gordon notice him at a test session (at Darlington, I believe).
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Joey at JGR.. Kyle Busch at Hendrick..
SlicedBread22 said:
I also think that without the right crew chief and team around a driver they won't do much
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I say depends on the track. At a road course 80% driver 20% car. I love it when the cup series goes to the road courses you really get to see them drive the wheels off.
Super speedway 90% car 10% driver. They seem to just get in and floor it. Best car wins Drafting help not withstanding.

The 1.5 milers seem to be 50-50 the car is important but the track needs to be read as well.

The short tracks to me seem to be 90% driver.....you really need to be able to wheel.
 
DanicaFreak said:
I say depends on the track. At a road course 80% driver 20% car. I love it when the cup series goes to the road courses you really get to see them drive the wheels off.
Super speedway 90% car 10% driver. They seem to just get in and floor it. Best car wins Drafting help not withstanding.

The 1.5 milers seem to be 50-50 the car is important but the track needs to be read as well.

The short tracks to me seem to be 90% driver.....you really need to be able to wheel.
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Soooooo...... then its the crew chief? lol
 
Jimmie, Chad with HMS have chemistry. Split up Jimmie & Chad and take Jimmie out of the 48 and Jimmie doesn't win 6 Championships.
 
DanicaFreak said:
I say depends on the track. At a road course 80% driver 20% car. I love it when the cup series goes to the road courses you really get to see them drive the wheels off.
Super speedway 90% car 10% driver. They seem to just get in and floor it. Best car wins Drafting help not withstanding.

The 1.5 milers seem to be 50-50 the car is important but the track needs to be read as well.

The short tracks to me seem to be 90% driver.....you really need to be able to wheel.
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Road courses are great. Burger King Racing and FAS Lane Racing both got Top 20s at Sonoma last year. JTG-Daugherty and Germain both finished in the Top 12 at Watkins Glen. NASCAR will figure it out one of these days and add a road course to the Chase.

Front Row Motorsports typically fare well at short tracks too.
 
I think you can take a guy like Allgaier or Annett or Gilliland, put them in the 48 for a few races, and they will be competitive. But you can't take JJ or Gordon or the Busch brothers and put them in the 30 car or 98 car and expect them to finish anywhere near the top 20. That's why I say the car is more important
 
FLRacingFan said:
Road courses are great. Burger King Racing and FAS Lane Racing both got Top 20s at Sonoma last year. JTG-Daugherty and Germain both finished in the Top 12 at Watkins Glen. NASCAR will figure it out one of these days and add a road course to the Chase.

Front Row Motorsports typically fare well at short tracks too.
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Totally agree.
 
TooSweet said:
I think you can take a guy like Allgaier or Annett or Gilliland, put them in the 48 for a few races, and they will be competitive. But you can't take JJ or Gordon or the Busch brothers and put them in the 30 car or 98 car and expect them to finish anywhere near the top 20. That's why I say the car is more important
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What if you take one of the Busch boys and stick them in say.......the 78?
 
BobbyFord said:
What if you take one of the Busch boys and stick them in say.......the 78?
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The car would perform better no doubt, but still not quite the contender like Kyle with the 18 or Kurt with the 41.

A great driver will certainly take an average/good team to the next level though.
 
I don't want to discredit the importance of the driver, don't get me wrong. ToyYoda's comment about Yeley with Gibbs is certainly proof of that. I just think a great driver usually needs a great car to win, but a great car doesn't need a great driver to win. I guess that's the easiest way to summarize it.
 
TooSweet said:
The car would perform better no doubt, but still not quite the contender like Kyle with the 18 or Kurt with the 41.

A great driver will certainly take an average/good team to the next level though.
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The 78 made The Chase last year. You said a lesser car wouldn't "finish anywhere near the top 20."
 
I sincerely doubt the 78 will be as good with Truex as it was with Kurt; that's the difference a great driver makes. However, I think it's more telling that Kurt didn't win in the 78 (yes he did come close), and yet he has already won a race in the 41. That's why the car matters so much.

No matter what way you look at it, they are both important.
 
Car 30%, Driver 30%, Crew Chief 30%, Freakin' luck 10%.
 
BobbyFord said:
There's a HUGE difference between Allgaier or Annett and Kurt Busch. ;)
I say Kurt could get in the top 20 in just about any car out there.
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I see your point. He did have a few top 10's in Finch's cars. And despite their Hendrick engines, they were average (at best) cars.

We've seen average guys like Ricky Craven and Derrike Cope and Regan Smith win races when they had the best car that day, but how often do you see the best guys win a race with an average car?
 
take slice's 3 legged stool example a bit further.
a chain is only as strong as its weakest link .
 
Although I never thought I would say this, it has to be the car IMO these days.

Lol, how's that 78 car without Kurt this year??? Kurt is one of the few hard racers left in NASCAR. That's why it's all about the car now. I'd love to see a field full of Busch brothers take to the track every week, you could leave all the fancy equipment at home and watch a hell of a show.
 
TooSweet said:
I see your point. He did have a few top 10's in Finch's cars. And despite their Hendrick engines, they were average (at best) cars.

We've seen average guys like Ricky Craven and Derrike Cope and Regan Smith win races when they had the best car that day, but how often do you see the best guys win a race with an average car?
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You gotta give him credit for making The Chase in an average car.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Put so and so in Jimmie's car and he too could win the race. Is that true or if you put Jimmie in someone else's car would he win? Which is more important, car or driver?
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I'd love to see what Marcos Ambrose could do with a full season driving the 48 w/Knaus. Marcos is always so fast on the road course, I've often wondered if he would win more races with a better team?
 
BobbyFord said:
But stick Kurt in a Penske car and he wins the Championship.
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Ummm......

buschkurt2.jpg


Kurt-Busch_20110114192128607_600_400.JPG
 
@StandOnIt hit the nail on the head earlier. This is nothing more than a chicken v. egg debate.

As some of y'all have alluded to, there is a codependent relationship between the driver, car, and team. All three have to be up to snuff for a driver/team to contend for wins on a consistent basis. As a driver, you can only be as good as your equipment and team will allow you to be. A car can only run as well as the driver can drive it and the team can service/work on it. A team can perform as great as they want to, but without a good driver and car, it'll all be for naught.
 
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TooSweet said:
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Kurt won a championship with Stewart-Haas.
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That would be awesome with a first year team. :beerbang:
I think SHR needs to improve in a few areas. Tony usually doesn't come on strong until the second half of the year. SHR certainly has some capable drivers this year.
 
The driver is more important, always has been and always will be IMO. A good driver can win in an average car but an average driver usually won't win even if the car is good.

Look at SHR with the 4 and 41 winning already, is Danica ever going to win driving the same stuff? I won't be holding my breath. The notion that anybody can hop into the 48 car and win is silly, JJ wins not only because he has great cars but because he's the best at driving it on the edge and making his car work.

An anology I'll use is that of a master painter. He is capable of creating masterpieces with the finest paints and canvas, but at the same time it could be done without the finest materials. The painter paints and creates the works of art within the medium he chooses. Just like a great driver drives, the car is the medium in which he works. With a great driver the car is capable of masterpieces but not the other way around. An average painter with the finest paints is still an average painter.
 
3wideinturn1 said:
...JJ wins not only because he has great cars but because he's the best at driving it on the edge and making his car work...
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I disagree. I don't believe that Jimmie is the best driver out there. I believe he has the best chemistry with his team. Which supports my theory that it's the whole package and not just the driver or just the car.
Stick Jimmie in the 78 and I bet he doesn't make The chase.
JMO, of course.
 
3wideinturn1 said:
A good driver can win in an average car but an average driver usually won't win even if the car is good.
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I disagree. Maybe 20 or 30 years ago, but not with today's cars.

There really isn't a right answer for this topic, but it's interesting to discuss.

BobbyFord said:
I disagree. I don't believe that Jimmie is the best driver out there. I believe he has the best chemistry with his team. Which supports my theory that it's the whole package and not just the driver or just the car.
Stick Jimmie in the 78 and I bet he doesn't make The chase.
JMO, of course.
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^ I agree with this
 
BobbyFord said:
I disagree. I don't believe that Jimmie is the best driver out there. I believe he has the best chemistry with his team. Which supports my theory that it's the whole package and not just the driver or just the car.
Stick Jimmie in the 78 and I bet he doesn't make The chase.
JMO, of course.
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I agree with you that JJ isn't the best driver in our sport either, but I do think he could make the chase in the 78 and maybe get a win or two in that car. He's a very smart, patient guy and gives excellent feedback in the car. I feel with his experience and overall driving skills and personality he could really do some good things in the 78.. just my .02.:D
 
TooSweet said:
I disagree. Maybe 20 or 30 years ago, but not with today's cars.

There really isn't a right answer for this topic, but it's interesting to discuss.



^ I agree with this
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I don't think there's a right answer either.
Even though I don't like what Brian did to the point system, it's still a good time to be a NASCAR fan. A couple of nice, fast youngsters in the sport this year mixes things up a bit and I'm going to be glued to the set for every remaining race.
 
Hypothetically speaking, for the sake of conversation....

Pretend that Jimmie Johnson and Josh Wise (98) swap rides for a season.
Also have Kurt Busch and Landon Cassill (40) swap rides.
Have Matt Kenseth and Cole Whitt (26) swap rides.
Have Brad Keselowski and David Reutimann (35) swap rides.

Do you guys think Wise, Cassill, Whitt, or Reutimann would win any races?

Would JJ, Kurt, Kenseth, or Brad finish in the top 20 in points?
 
TooSweet said:
Hypothetically speaking, for the sake of conversation....

Pretend that Jimmie Johnson and Josh Wise (98) swap rides for a season.
Also have Kurt Busch and Landon Cassill (40) swap rides.
Have Matt Kenseth and Cole Whitt (26) swap rides.
Have Brad Keselowski and David Reutimann (35) swap rides.

Do you guys think Wise, Cassill, Whitt, or Reutimann would win any races?

Would JJ, Kurt, Kenseth, or Brad finish in the top 20 in points?
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I think right now Reuti has more ability than Cassill, Whitt or Wise and I think Reuti is the only one of the bunch capable of winning against the current Cup field.
I think JJ, Kurt, Matt and Brad finish in the top 20 no matter what they're driving.
 
It isnt all nuts, bolts, and driver. There is chemistry as well.

Logano and the JGR #20 didnt mesh or sync up very well. Kenseth took the same ride and set the woods on fire. But Logano (to a lesser degree) also demonstrated he is a good driver in 2013. He only looked average in the # 20, but instantly looked better in the Penske #22. I dont think the 22 was that much better the #20, I think he just needed a ride better suited to him, a change of scenery or chemistry.

On the other hand Kurt Busch definitely demonstrated what a difference a driver can make.
I dont think there is a calculus and all of the variables scramble any set formula or percentage.

My gut feel is the car matters most, but history has shown that a single driver can change everything.
 
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