What's more important, the car or the driver?

I think gordon and even dale jr won most of those races early in their careers because they did have a pretty big equipment advantage. The reason kurt didn't win in the 78 car was because the team was lacking in particular a decent pit crew and a couple very small pieces. You can't win the race when on the money stop you loose 4 to 5 spots. With a better pit crew and a team that could keep up kurt wins at least 2 races last year in the 78 car.

as for mark martin saying any cup driver could win in the best car, well that depends on HOW much better the car is. There are also certain drivers that are capable of getting more speed out of the car at just the right moments. tony is best I think at doing this, let that guy sniff a win and there is no one better. another example is when lefler drove the 11 car, in steps denny and it starts winning.
 
I always felt kurt was a disappointment at penske for whatever reason. I wonder if it had anything to do with them only running 2 cars most of the time and kinda being on an island when it came to having notes to compare with other drivers and teams. maybe kurt does better with more drivers around him to share info with.
 
BobbyFord said:
I disagree. I don't believe that Jimmie is the best driver out there. I believe he has the best chemistry with his team. Which supports my theory that it's the whole package and not just the driver or just the car.
Stick Jimmie in the 78 and I bet he doesn't make The chase.
JMO, of course.
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Fair enough I certainly can agree that it is the whole package I just think the driver is the most important ingredient to prolonged success.

Just out of curiosity who do you think is the best driver? I mean statistically speaking JJ is the best and its not even close. In regards to JJ not making the Chase in the 78, if Kurt did it you don't think JJ could too?
 
3wideinturn1 said:
...Just out of curiosity who do you think is the best driver? I mean statistically speaking JJ is the best and its not even close. In regards to JJ not making the Chase in the 78, if Kurt did it you don't think JJ could too?
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In terms of raw talent, I believe both of the Busch boys are better than Jimmie. Matt is a great driver. Gordon has more wins, more top 5's and more top 10's than JJ.
No, I do not think Jimmie would make The Chase in the 78.
If you compare JJ's Daytona spin with Kyle's Daytona spin, you will see two very different drivers. JJ turned the wheel to the right, locked the car down and hit the inside fence. Kyle turned the wheel to the right, down shifted, mashed the gas, turned the wheel back to the left and saved the car.
JMO, of course.
 
BobbyFord said:
Maybe you didn't see my other post. Penske is a very different organization today than when Kurt was there. Or maybe you don't think so.
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Well lets see... they did win the championship the year after he left.... yeah they must really have been behind :rolleyes: Kurt won 10 times in that 6 years and finished in the top 12 in the standings 4 times.... They couldn't have been that bad.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Well lets see... they did win the championship the year after he left.... yeah they must really have been behind :rolleyes: Kurt won 10 times in that 6 years and finished in the top 12 in the standings 4 times.... They couldn't have been that bad.
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Compare that to Penkse's success now and you will see a very different organization. Or maybe YOU won't ;)
 
BobbyFord said:
Compare that to Penkse's success now and you will see a very different organization. Or maybe YOU won't ;)
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Lol Im just bustin ur balls... of course I would.. lol I mean come on I think I know it as well as anyone.. guess Roger just finally found some drivers he feels good about putting more effort into :D
 
I would normally say the car is the most important but as what was already said, look what Kurt did last year...I'm not sure what the answer is?
 
BobbyFord said:
Compare that to Penkse's success now and you will see a very different organization. Or maybe YOU won't ;)
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Say what you will about Kez, but he was the driving force behind a lot of changes at Penske. No more in-house crew chiefs might be the biggest change. A lot of new Penske talent has come from that NW program Brad held out for.
 
FenderBumper said:
Say what you will about Kez, but he was the driving force behind a lot of changes at Penske. No more in-house crew chiefs might be the biggest change. A lot of new Penske talent has come from that NW program Brad held out for.
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Not to mention how hard he lobbied to get Joey over there. Roger was asking for Joey a year earlier than he got him at Brads request. They talked about it in the off season after 2011 I believe.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Not to mention how hard he lobbied to get Joey over there. Roger was asking for Joey a year earlier than he got him at Brads request. They talked about it in the off season after 2011 I believe.
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It seemed Roger was thinking of putting Sam in the 22. I remember Brad saying he felt he should have a say in who his teammate is, and suddenly a few drivers looking for rides were his best friends on twitter.
 
FenderBumper said:
It seemed Roger was thinking of putting Sam in the 22. I remember Brad saying he felt he should have a say in who his teammate is, and suddenly a few drivers looking for rides were his best friends on twitter.
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I duno... I think Sam only spent that time in the 22 because Joey wasn't available yet. My opinion.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Looks like a pretty even split on this question. :cool:
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upload_2014-4-11_9-25-39.jpeg
 
BobbyFord said:
In terms of raw talent, I believe both of the Busch boys are better than Jimmie. Matt is a great driver. Gordon has more wins, more top 5's and more top 10's than JJ.
No, I do not think Jimmie would make The Chase in the 78.
If you compare JJ's Daytona spin with Kyle's Daytona spin, you will see two very different drivers. JJ turned the wheel to the right, locked the car down and hit the inside fence. Kyle turned the wheel to the right, down shifted, mashed the gas, turned the wheel back to the left and saved the car.
JMO, of course.
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I would agree the Busch bros do have the most talent, but I believe JJ is the complete package. They both lack mental toughness and leadership qualities that JJ has. When JJ is having a bad day, he can often rebound while both the Busch's often meltdown and blame everyone else on their team.

I'm a big hockey fan, and I can draw a parallel between the two sports. Sidney Crosby is considered the best in the world not just because how many goals he scores, but how he makes others around him better. How he leads by example, how he is able to persevere in difficult situations. I feel as though JJ is the same, he raises his entire team to another level from the intangibles he possesses. There's lots of great drivers and teams out there, but there's also a reason why JJ is there when it matters most. What's his worst points finish, 6th or something? That's just my opinion though.
 
3wideinturn1 said:
I would agree the Busch bros do have the most talent, but I believe JJ is the complete package. They both lack mental toughness and leadership qualities that JJ has. When JJ is having a bad day, he can often rebound while both the Busch's often meltdown and blame everyone else on their team.

I'm a big hockey fan, and I can draw a parallel between the two sports. Sidney Crosby is considered the best in the world not just because how many goals he scores, but how he makes others around him better. How he leads by example, how he is able to persevere in difficult situations. I feel as though JJ is the same, he raises his entire team to another level from the intangibles he possesses. There's lots of great drivers and teams out there, but there's also a reason why JJ is there when it matters most. What's his worst points finish, 6th or something? That's just my opinion though.
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Don't talk about hockey :(


Lol for me it's time to talk about golf
 
I'm gonna hafta disagree. I don't think JJ is the complete package, I think the 48 team is the complete package. However, since the new car changes, I think the playing field is a little more level. The 48 doesn't breeze through inspection like the used to.
 
Modern day NASCAR leans heavily on the car but a great driver or combination can change it all.

I give JJ all the credit in the world - best of this era. But I have always wondered how he could be so avg. in Busch and then one yr later he is running for the cup title. The strength of the crew on that 48 starting with Knaus deserves majority credit IMO. Just their ability to fix a bad racecar or comeback after adversity shows what a great leader (CC) with good strategy can do regardless of what's going on with the car.
 
BobbyFord said:
I'm gonna hafta disagree. I don't think JJ is the complete package, I think the 48 team is the complete package. However, since the new car changes, I think the playing field is a little more level. The 48 doesn't breeze through inspection like the used to.
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The only thing about that is if you look at JJ's run in Cup, his team has gone through wholesale changes multiple times, the only constant has been him and Knuas.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
I duno... I think Sam only spent that time in the 22 because Joey wasn't available yet. My opinion.
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There's a long history of comments from Roger saying he's committed to making Sam successful in nascar. IMO, if Sam had done something with that ride in 2012, he would still be driving it. He didn't, and Brad had to push REAL hard to get him out and Logano in.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
I duno... I think Sam only spent that time in the 22 because Joey wasn't available yet. My opinion.
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SlicedBread22 said:
Not to mention how hard he [Brad] lobbied to get Joey over there. Roger was asking for Joey a year earlier than he got him at Brads request. They talked about it in the off season after 2011 I believe.
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If Sam was a place holder, as you say, why would Brad need to lobby hard to get Sam out of the car? The 2 comments contradict each other.
 
3wideinturn1 said:
The only thing about that is if you look at JJ's run in Cup, his team has gone through wholesale changes multiple times, the only constant has been him and Knuas.
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When the team struggled, Rick took the best team he had (from Gordon) and gave it to Jimmie. Team effort.
 
FenderBumper said:
If Sam was a place holder, as you say, why would Brad need to lobby hard to get Sam out of the car? The 2 comments contradict each other.
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LOL No they don't .. at all actually...
SlicedBread22 said:
Roger was asking for Joey a year earlier than he got him at Brads request. They talked about it in the off season after 2011 I believe.
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I know ur not the best at math but u can't even comprehend a timeline either? lol

Roger reportedly asked about Joey after the 2011 season. He was unavailable. He then hired AJ Allmendinger for a year (probably also a place holder).. and he was fired. That was the ONLY reason Sam Hornish even got a shot in that car, I don't think he was ever really considered for it full time... unless maybe they couldn't get Joey...which is most likely why they said it was between him and Joey... It's not like he's going to tell Sam they have no intention of keeping him in the car. I mean come on obviously he is a hard guy to find sponsorship for considering they can't even put together a full time nationwide ride for him.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
LOL No they don't .. at all actually...

I know ur not the best at math but u can't even comprehend a timeline either? lol

Roger reportedly asked about Joey after the 2011 season. He was unavailable. He then hired AJ Allmendinger for a year (probably also a place holder).. and he was fired. That was the ONLY reason Sam Hornish even got a shot in that car, I don't think he was ever really considered for it full time... unless maybe they couldn't get Joey...which is most likely why they said it was between him and Joey... It's not like he's going to tell Sam they have no intention of keeping him in the car. I mean come on obviously he is a hard guy to find sponsorship for considering they can't even put together a full time nationwide ride for him.
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So Roger was asking for Joey in 2011, then made Brad lobby hard to get him in 2012? o_O

Makes no sense.

So you believe if Sam had won a race and done real well in 2012, he would have still lost that ride? If not Sam, which driver was Roger going to put in the car? If you say Joey, I'll give you a virtual slap on the back of the head. ;)
 
FenderBumper said:
So you believe if Sam had won a race and done real well in 2012, he would have still lost that ride? If not Sam, which driver was Roger going to put in the car? If you say Joey, I'll give you a virtual slap on the back of the head. ;)
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Yes that's exactly what Im saying. I don't think that Penske Racing, or Shell/Pennzoil had any plans of keeping him whatsoever UNLESS Joe Gibbs had held on to Joey.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Yes that's exactly what Im saying. I don't think that Penske Racing, or Shell/Pennzoil had any plans of keeping him whatsoever UNLESS Joe Gibbs had held on to Joey.
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* slaps slicer on the back of the head *

You seem to have missed a question mark. They look like this...?

Go back and find it, then answer the question.
 
Or is it this one?
FenderBumper said:
So Roger was asking for Joey in 2011, then made Brad lobby hard to get him in 2012? o_O
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The end of 2011... Roger asking about Joey because of Brad lobbying... the lobbying was behind closed doors... just because we heard about it in august doesn't mean it happened in august. Had to wait for the Kenseth announcement... and then JGR tried to get something together for Joey but failed.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Or is it this one?

The end of 2011... Roger asking about Joey because of Brad lobbying... the lobbying was behind closed doors... just because we heard about it in august doesn't mean it happened in august. Had to wait for the Kenseth announcement... and then JGR tried to get something together for Joey but failed.
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Ahhh, slicer has backroom info. :rolleyes:

So, Brad lobbied Roger to get Joey, and Roger agreed and tried to get Joey at the end of 2011. (All of this happened behind closed doors, of course).

Then, in 2012, Brad starts lobbying publicly to get Joey in the car that Roger was already trying to get????

That Brad is such a card. :rolleyes:
 
LOL Something like that... Im just saying Brad lobbied to get Joey I the off season if 2011 but it wasn't known until 2012..... hang on I'll google it lol might take a bit
 
FenderBumper said:
Ahhh, slicer has backroom info. :rolleyes:

So, Brad lobbied Roger to get Joey, and Roger agreed and tried to get Joey at the end of 2011. (All of this happened behind closed doors, of course).

Then, in 2012, Brad starts lobbying publicly to get Joey in the car that Roger was already trying to get????

That Brad is such a card. :rolleyes:
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http://www.racintoday.com/archives/38065

Article written September 2012

Penske Racing’s Brad Keselowski admits he lobbied for Joey Logano to become the driver of the No. 22 car and notes the process to obtain the Connecticut native probably began 10 months ago.

Keselowski says Penske Racing first cast an eye in Logano’s direction last December after releasing Kurt Busch following an incident in the Homestead garage with ESPN reporter Dr. Jerry Punch. The verbal tirade was videoed and posted on YouTube. Team owner Roger Penske replaced Busch with A.J. Allmendinger to whom the team was committed.

However, Allmendinger failed a NASCAR drug test administered at Kentucky Speedway in late June and in early August was released by Penske after his B sample also tested positive. Penske called up Sam Hornish Jr. from the Nationwide Series to the No. 22 Dodge at Daytona in July. Since then Hornish has done double-duty for Penske, competing full time in the Sprint Cup and Nationwide series. Many believed Hornish had the inside track for the seat in the No. 22, but earlier this week it was announced the ride was Logano’s, beginning in 2013.

“I think it’s the wrong approach to be sad for Sam right now because that’s a defeatist attitude, as though he’s got no shot at getting back at the Cup level. I don’t think that’s the case at all,” Keselowski said Friday during preparations for Saturday’s Federated Auto Parts 400. “I’m a little taken back by those that are pleading for sympathy on Sam’s behalf because I think he still has got just as strong a shot as ever, especially with his performance over the last few weeks.
“I think there were some other wheels in motion that probably prevented it on this timeline, but, you know, life doesn’t always work on the timeline that you want it to. I would say by no means does Sam Hornish not landing in the 22 Cup ride full time mean that there is a fork in his career. I think that’s the wrong approach. I think he has a chance to continue to prove himself this year and to continue to put himself in the running for future opportunities.”






So................. are we done yet? lol :D
 
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