What do you think about the changes?

Mopardh9 said:
Yeh no kidding...duh! Nascar has added gimmick after gimmick to Daytona to make the racing "better" for the last 25 years, it's the same BS over and over again. They need a smaller engine displacement generating about 450-500hp without plates. This would provide plenty of speed, throttle response and increase the drafting ability. follow the leader pack type racing only leads to millions of dollars of equipment being torn up in the "Big One". At least half the field was not running at the end this year. I don't want to see a huge wreck every race at daytona take out all the good drivers, it's getting old, and fans are becoming fed up with it, especially older ones who know what racing really is!
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Explain this to someone that knows nothing about engines. If they did what you say will they be going slower or be capable of going faster than they are now?
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Explain this to someone that knows nothing about engines. If they did what you say will they be going slower or be capable of going faster than they are now?
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Getting away in a pack is all about throttle response, if an engine is restricted it has a lot less throttle rseponse....in other words as you push down on the gas pedal it takes a lot longer to reach max speed. Without being restricted you push the pedal, it's pretty much instant response. I've been saying since 2002 when I first joined this forum that restrictor plate racing is a fabrication of Nascar, something to keep everyone pinned on their seats waiting for the crash that will happen and take out 10-15 cars. It's pitiful, it's not racing, yet Nascar refuses to address the problem. Let these guys drive 180-190 unresticted and I'd be willing to bet that the racing is way better than this crap we have had for 25 years.
 
Mopardh9 said:
Getting away in a pack is all about throttle response, if an engine is restricted it has a lot less throttle rseponse....in other words as you push down on the gas pedal it takes a lot longer to reach max speed. Without being restricted you push the pedal, it's pretty much instant response. I've been saying since 2002 when I first joined this forum that restrictor plate racing is a fabrication of Nascar, something to keep everyone pinned on their seats waiting for the crash that will happen and take out 10-15 cars. It's pitiful, it's not racing, yet Nascar refuses to address the problem. Let these guys drive 180-190 unresticted and I'd be willing to bet that the racing is way better than this crap we have had for 25 years.
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I understand what throttle response is. What I don't understand is..... NASCAR does not want these cars to go any faster. How can you have throttle response if they all would have their foot to the floor?
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
I understand what throttle response is. What I don't understand is..... NASCAR does not want these cars to go any faster. How can you have throttle response if they all would have their foot to the floor?
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If they had to lift in the corners like they used to then you would have seperation. I'm sure you have watched some of the races from the 60s and 70s from Daytona and Dega, that is what i'm talking about.
 
Mopardh9 said:
If they had to lift in the corners like they used to then you would have seperation. I'm sure you have watched some of the races from the 60s and 70s from Daytona and Dega, that is what i'm talking about.
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Again, I know what throttle response and lifting means. What I want to know is, if the cars are going to be going slower, how can there possibly be any need to lift in the first place? NASCAR doesn't want them to go faster. Without a complete change of aero with these cars and no increase in speeds, there will never be a reason to lift the pedal heading into a turn at these tracks. Maybe this is way above my comprehension level and I need to leave it at that?
 
Mopardh9 said:
Getting away in a pack is all about throttle response, if an engine is restricted it has a lot less throttle rseponse....in other words as you push down on the gas pedal it takes a lot longer to reach max speed. Without being restricted you push the pedal, it's pretty much instant response. I've been saying since 2002 when I first joined this forum that restrictor plate racing is a fabrication of Nascar, something to keep everyone pinned on their seats waiting for the crash that will happen and take out 10-15 cars. It's pitiful, it's not racing, yet Nascar refuses to address the problem. Let these guys drive 180-190 unresticted and I'd be willing to bet that the racing is way better than this crap we have had for 25 years.
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Keep the cars on the ground and Im all for it but make sure ya dump the splitter too
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Again, I know what throttle response and lifting means. What I want to know is, if the cars are going to be going slower, how can there possibly be any need to lift in the first place? NASCAR doesn't want them to go faster. Without a complete change of aero with these cars and no increase in speeds, there will never be a reason to lift the pedal heading into a turn at these tracks. Maybe this is way above my comprehension level and I need to leave it at that?
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I think you understand it perfectly.
 
aunty dive said:
I think you understand it perfectly.
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I agree, DPK has it down pat. The current plate motors make about 415 to 420 bhp, IIRC. They lack throttle response because the aero drag at racing speed consumes all of the power the motor generates. There is no power available for acceleration because you're already at terminal velocity. That would remain the same with smaller motors without plates... limited by displacement rather than by restricted air flow.

If you're lifting for the corners at Daytona and Talladega, it's because your speed on the straightaway is higher than today's cars can make. And cars will fly at those speeds. It is the great Catch-22 of Daytona and Talladega. The only way to accomplish what Mr. Mopar wants is to lower the banking.

And I'm not holding my breath waiting for that!
 
LewTheShoe said:
I agree, DPK has it down pat. The current plate motors make about 415 to 420 bhp, IIRC. They lack throttle response because the aero drag at racing speed consumes all of the power the motor generates. There is no power available for acceleration because you're already at terminal velocity. That would remain the same with smaller motors without plates... limited by displacement rather than by restricted air flow.

If you're lifting for the corners at Daytona and Talladega, it's because your speed on the straightaway is higher than today's cars can make. And cars will fly at those speeds. It is the great Catch-22 of Daytona and Talladega. The only way to accomplish what Mr. Mopar wants is to lower the banking.

And I'm not holding my breath waiting for that!
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If they'd take the downforce away from those cars on the restrictor plate tracks enough so that it's impossible to take a corner at full speed, separation in the field would be the result. It would then come back to the best driver with the best setup. That's what separates the cars at every other single track on the schedule. It would happen there too. They are already running a different aero package at these two restrictor plate tracks, change it even more. Make the car hard to drive. Get rid of the excessive downforce. These drivers will adapt.
 
The stage racing is yet another necessary gimmick, but for goodness sake, if you are gonna do it don't count the laps between segments. On the five-minute clock, I think it will eventually go away. I like the idea of the rule but I am not sure the multi-million paying sponsors will like it long term. They should give the teams one attempt to fix the crash damage and that's it. If you can't make speed or you crash a second time you are done.
 
My thoughts:

1) The RP tracks will benefit see the most change with the "stage racing" format. Be with it as you may.

2) This will hardly change racing at the other tracks, in my opinion. It's all about aerodynamics. More than anything, pit strategy will become more critical than ever.

3) I have no problems with the "crash clock" other than hearing Mike Joy mention it 326 times a race.

I just hope these gimmicky competition cautions will do away with the fake debris cautions. If that's the case, I may be able to get behind it.
 
I guess these most recent changes are this NASCAR generation's equivalent of the Chase implementation. Personally I think the segment and damage rules are minute in comparison to the change from the old means of crowning a champion to today's Chase, err, playoffs method. To me, the most recent changes are nothing more than points paying cautions. The new damage rules are mostly meaningless and something that they probably should have implemented years ago.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
I guess these most recent changes are this NASCAR generation's equivalent of the Chase implementation. Personally I think the segment and damage rules are minute in comparison to the change from the old means of crowning a champion to today's Chase, err, playoffs method. To me, the most recent changes are nothing more than points paying cautions. The new damage rules are mostly meaningless and something that they probably should have implemented years ago.
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Pure speculation; I wonder where NASCAR would be today if they left the point system alone, didn't implement any playoff format and simply make technical and safety advances.
It just seems to me the past few years NASCAR has been trying to stem the blood flow after chopping off it's own head.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
If they'd take the downforce away from those cars on the restrictor plate tracks enough so that it's impossible to take a corner at full speed, separation in the field would be the result. It would then come back to the best driver with the best setup. That's what separates the cars at every other single track on the schedule. It would happen there too. They are already running a different aero package at these two restrictor plate tracks, change it even more. Make the car hard to drive. Get rid of the excessive downforce. These drivers will adapt.
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I understand what you're saying, but I don't have the aerodynamics expertise to know if that's a practical idea or not. The cars also get traction in the corners from centrifugal force, but seem to be spinning out as they transition to the straightaway. Could it be that we reach a situation where you can go as fast as you can on the banking, but you have to slow down on the straight to maintain control? :idunno:

Do the cars need a certain minimum of aerodynamic downforce to keep them from lifting off into flight? I don't know.
 
It's just the nature of the tracks...... the extreme banking is what complicates matters.... To me..... the only way to rid the matter of the plates is to lower the banking... that isn't going to happen... and to be honest...... I'd hate to see it. I love both Daytona and 'Dega races.... always have.... plates or not....
 
A 1000 HP and a 10" wide tire would take care of this...
 
LewTheShoe said:
I agree, DPK has it down pat. The current plate motors make about 415 to 420 bhp, IIRC. They lack throttle response because the aero drag at racing speed consumes all of the power the motor generates. There is no power available for acceleration because you're already at terminal velocity. That would remain the same with smaller motors without plates... limited by displacement rather than by restricted air flow.

If you're lifting for the corners at Daytona and Talladega, it's because your speed on the straightaway is higher than today's cars can make. And cars will fly at those speeds. It is the great Catch-22 of Daytona and Talladega. The only way to accomplish what Mr. Mopar wants is to lower the banking.

And I'm not holding my breath waiting for that!
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You are totally incorrect, you can achieve speed with a 450-500 horsepower motor and throttle response. Watch the old Iroc series, prime example, there is no need to lower the banking.
 
BobbyFord said:
Pure speculation; I wonder where NASCAR would be today if they left the point system alone, didn't implement any playoff format and simply make technical and safety advances.
It just seems to me the past few years NASCAR has been trying to stem the blood flow after chopping off it's own head.
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They have been doing this for years.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Yeah, I'll keep screaming that into the darkness without expecting any results. Some positions are worth sticking to. :rolleyes:
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You guys aren't either paying attention to the facts or aren't old enough to remember the way racing was when there were no plates. You don't need a 800 horsepower motor with no plates to accomplish what I've been talking about.
 
BobbyFord said:
Pure speculation; I wonder where NASCAR would be today if they left the point system alone, didn't implement any playoff format and simply make technical and safety advances.
It just seems to me the past few years NASCAR has been trying to stem the blood flow after chopping off it's own head.
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A good question to ask. I miss the Winston Cup points system. But willing to give this format a chance, I feel like full season consistency is rewarded more with playoff points and in my eyes, the Champ is a bit more legit. Anxious to see how the stages work this weekend and upcoming races. Maybe not this series sponsor or the next one, but I still think in my lifetime NASCAR will wake up and see all this Chase/Playoff points format was an epic failure and they will go back to a full season point system with wins being worth more points.
 
BobbyFord said:
Where the hell have you been????
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I got off of here for awhile again, moved around, stayed more current with the local racing scene around New England than the national stuff. Started watching the Cup races again because of Elliots' kid and Truex going to the 78. I know a few people connected to the Furniture racing team based in Colorado so it became interesting to me again. Still feel as you have gathered from my recent posts, that Nascar is still making the same mistakes in addressing problems, they continually put band aids on issues rather than cure.
 
Mopardh9 said:
Yeh no kidding...duh! Nascar has added gimmick after gimmick to Daytona to make the racing "better" for the last 25 years, it's the same BS over and over again. They need a smaller engine displacement generating about 450-500hp without plates. This would provide plenty of speed, throttle response and increase the drafting ability. follow the leader pack type racing only leads to millions of dollars of equipment being torn up in the "Big One". At least half the field was not running at the end this year. I don't want to see a huge wreck every race at daytona take out all the good drivers, it's getting old, and fans are becoming fed up with it, especially older ones who know what racing really is!
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Goody's Dash cars had smaller engines ... speed ... drafting ability and huge wrecks.

They're gone now ... maybe the fans who know what racing really is put the run on them.

 
Mopardh9 said:
You guys aren't either paying attention to the facts or aren't old enough to remember the way racing was when there were no plates. You don't need a 800 horsepower motor with no plates to accomplish what I've been talking about.
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There also wasn't the downforce that is generated by today's Cup cars. It's not even close to the same in that respect. That's where the difference is IMO.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
There also wasn't the downforce that is generated by today's Cup cars. It's not even close to the same in that respect. That's where the difference is IMO.
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I used to like restrictor plate races, but now kind of over the demolition derbies that have become Daytona/Talladega. Wish there was a way to run without the restrictor plates but not so sure with the aero rules. You gents/ladies have thrown around interesting ideas on this topic.
 
BobbyFord said:
Pure speculation; I wonder where NASCAR would be today if they left the point system alone, didn't implement any playoff format and simply make technical and safety advances.
It just seems to me the past few years NASCAR has been trying to stem the blood flow after chopping off it's own head.
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No way to tell, but my uninformed opinion is NASCAR would be pretty much where it is today in terms of attendance, TV audience, and series sponsor contract.
 
Mopardh9 said:
Yeh no kidding...duh! Nascar has added gimmick after gimmick to Daytona to make the racing "better" for the last 25 years, it's the same BS over and over again. They need a smaller engine displacement generating about 450-500hp without plates. This would provide plenty of speed, throttle response and increase the drafting ability. follow the leader pack type racing only leads to millions of dollars of equipment being torn up in the "Big One". At least half the field was not running at the end this year. I don't want to see a huge wreck every race at daytona take out all the good drivers, it's getting old, and fans are becoming fed up with it, especially older ones who know what racing really is!
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I'm 55 and I have been watching NASCAR since the 70's and I happen to like restrictor plate racing.

Nice attempt at an insult though! Kudos! :booya:
 
aunty dive said:
Goody's Dash cars had smaller engines ... speed ... drafting ability and huge wrecks.

They're gone now ... maybe the fans who know what racing really is put the run on them.

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Watch the races from the late 60s and early 70s at Daytona, that is what racing should be like there. There is no reason why the cars can't be like that , with less downforce, a little less horsepower and the drafting and passing would be 100 percent better. There would not be the huge pack racing like today which is leads to big wrecks taking out 15 or more cars at a time. Who wants to see that , especially when your favorite driver is involved!?? I find it amazing that some fans actually like this form of racing, if you can call it that, it's like Nascar has brainwashed you into thinking this is the way it should be....wake up!
 
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