Why Doesn't NASCAR Take Wins or Points For Cheating?

ladyspartan16

ladyspartan16

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It seems asinine to just say "they failed post race inspection." and then do nothing. The worst I've seen is suspending crew chiefs which really isn't a punishment.

Maybe I'm harsh, but maybe if NASCAR enforced the rules instead of making new ones, teams wouldn't be so bold about defying them.
 
Pretty much, i figure you might as well have a car cheated up to win the final four race and they probably wouldn't take away the championship.
 
Because it makes them look bad.

Before the race....hell before the weekend starts you have to go through pre-inspections like in 3 different places. Inspection for qualifying and finally, for the race itself and then after the race.

If they start taking away wins after that arduous process it makes them look incompetent.

I did like what they did to Logano though at least. Invalidating race wins for the chase is the closest NASCAR will ever get to taking away wins.
 
Nascar does take away points as part of the fines but never close to the amount you earned. Instead of a driver not being able to qualify for not passing inspection, just send the team home. I bet the next week they will.
 
Bill France Sr. wanted fans to know who the winner was.when they left the track. This was back in the days before universal social media coverage, when there was no regular coverage of the sport on the three TV networks, before TV audiences became more profitable than the ones at the track itself. In those days, fans may not have learned of a change for days or weeks.

This was especially true in sport's home in the Old South, where it might take a couple of days to find someone able to read the report to you. :D
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Bill France Sr. wanted fans to know who the winner was.when they left the track. This was back in the days before universal social media coverage, when there was no regular coverage of the sport on the three TV networks, before TV audiences became more profitable than the ones at the track itself. In those days, fans may not have learned of a change for days or weeks.

This was especially true in sport's home in the Old South, where it might take a couple of days to find someone able to read the report to you. :D
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Yea well it's 2017. Time for a change.
 
Cheating is apart of competition. If you're not cheating you are getting beat by those that are. Some get caugh, some dont but cheating will always happen.
 
Taking away wins is such a draconian thing to do though. If you dont do it then and there, then you cant do it hours or days after the race, imo.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Bill France Sr. wanted fans to know who the winner was.when they left the track. This was back in the days before universal social media coverage, when there was no regular coverage of the sport on the three TV networks, before TV audiences became more profitable than the ones at the track itself. In those days, fans may not have learned of a change for days or weeks.

This was especially true in sport's home in the Old South, where it might take a couple of days to find someone able to read the report to you. :D
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Bingo!!!!!
 
Simple Fan said:
Cheating is apart of competition. If you're not cheating you are getting beat by those that are. Some get caugh, some dont but cheating will always happen.
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I agree, and doping is a reality in many forms of athletic competition. You've posted this reality check in response to a thread about why NASCAR doesn't take away wins. I'm assuming your conclusion isn't that because competitors will cheat, there should be no punishment for it.

Unlike most sporting competitions, motorsports and otherwise, NASCAR doesn't strip wins from rules violaters because they treat their fans as children who would be too confused by such a thing.
 
gnomesayin said:
I agree, and doping is a reality in many forms of athletic competition. You've posted this reality check in response to a thread about why NASCAR doesn't take away wins. I'm assuming your conclusion isn't that because competitors will cheat, there should be no punishment for it.

Unlike most sporting competitions, motorsports and otherwise, NASCAR doesn't strip wins from rules violaters because they treat their fans as children who would be too confused by such a thing.
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You have to have punishment but that punishment no matter how hard it is, isn't going to stop the cheating. I think NASCAR making wins encumbered is about the best they can do. I'm against taking a win away and giving it to someone that didn't earn it and you cant have a race without a winner so encumbered wins is the best way to go.
 
Look, you all know that those who cheat do so because it is the fault of someone else and not because of their own actions. Maybe they didn't have good role models when they were raised, maybe they didn't have access to the best schools. It also could be they have attention deficit disorder and that keeps them from spending enough time to be legal. That is how things are nowadays. You can't be bullied into a position where you can't just be yourself.
 
Simple Fan said:
You have to have punishment but that punishment no matter how hard it is, isn't going to stop the cheating. I think NASCAR making wins encumbered is about the best they can do. I'm against taking a win away and giving it to someone that didn't earn it and you cant have a race without a winner so encumbered wins is the best way to go.
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as usual, "encumbered" works pretty well for the CUP series. I personally think they should do what grass roots racing all over the country does myself, take the win, money, points, everything away. Where it gets stupid and to me doesn't make any sense is a cupper in the lower series who isn't in the points system? WTF?
 
Trucks, XFinity, Cup are the only series they don't take away wins. NASCAR tracks across the nation though (from ucars to late models to modifieds) it's almost a regular occurrence. It's not uncommon to see a mid-week press release from some NASCAR short track with a revised finishing order due to some sort of infraction.
 
VaDirt said:
Trucks, XFinity, Cup are the only series they don't take away wins. NASCAR tracks across the nation though (from ucars to late models to modifieds) it's almost a regular occurrence. It's not uncommon to see a mid-week press release from some NASCAR short track with a revised finishing order due to some sort of infraction.
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I think a person could say that is common racing practice in the U.S. for the most part. Especially in the Nascar type racing events. I know at the sprint car track I went to that was in place there and all over the 4 state area.
 
StandOnIt said:
as usual, "encumbered" works pretty well for the CUP series. I personally think they should do what grass roots racing all over the country does myself, take the win, money, points, everything away. Where it gets stupid and to me doesn't make any sense is a cupper in the lower series who isn't in the points system? WTF?
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But if you take that win away, who wins? Do you have no winner, or give the win to 2nd? Giving a win to 2nd place does more harm to NASCAR's integrity than cheating to me and having a race with no winner makes zero sense.
 
ladyspartan16 said:
Yea well it's 2017. Time for a change.
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Oh, I agree completely. I've never supported continuing to do something just because that's the way it's always been done.
  • Take the win.
  • Penalize the team an amount of time based on the infraction.
  • Add that time to the car's running time.
  • See where that time puts the car in the field.
  • If the car is still up front after the added time, move it back to second place.
 
Simple Fan said:
But if you take that win away, who wins? Do you have no winner, or give the win to 2nd? Giving a win to 2nd place does more harm to NASCAR's integrity than cheating to me and having a race with no winner makes zero sense.
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Yes, the top finishing 'legal' competitor wins. There's nothing foul about that whatsoever. When the gold medal winner is found to have cheated, the silver medal winner gets the gold. That is basically the definition of a competition with integrity. Preserving wins for proven cheaters is essentially the definition of corruption. In this case it happens because 'the show' is determined to be more important than the integrity of the competition.

I am not one to overly stigmatize cheating in sports. I agree that it's always going to be present. Serious high level competition demands looking for any way to get an edge. There will always be gray areas, and it will always be tempting to step over the line to win. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be appropriately punished and rules shouldn't be upheld. Take the win and all the bounty that comes with it away, and move on to the next contest. The convoluted mess they come up with trying to tiptoe around the subject is much worse.
 
Simple Fan said:
Crossed the line first though. Go ahead and encumber the win but giving a car the win that didn't earn it just sounds crazy to me.
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You say you've been watching racing your entire life, but not sure you've been paying attention. But that's the way it is at just about every track across America, with the exception of NASCAR's top-three series. Car goes through tech and fails, win goes to the first legal car across the line. Hell, I've been asked to shoot some victory lane pics the following week because the guy that was given the win didn't get a chance. And just two weeks ago, saw everything from 2nd on get moved up immediately because the red light (didn't make weight) came on at the scales.
 
gnomesayin said:
Yes, the top finishing 'legal' competitor wins. There's nothing foul about that whatsoever. When the gold medal winner is found to have cheated, the silver medal winner gets the gold. That is basically the definition of a competition with integrity. Preserving wins for proven cheaters is essentially the definition of corruption. In this case it happens because 'the show' is determined to be more important than the integrity of the competition.

I am not one to overly stigmatize cheating in sports. I agree that it's always going to be present. Serious high level competition demands looking for any way to get an edge. There will always be gray areas, and it will always be tempting to step over the line to win. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be appropriately punished and rules shouldn't be upheld. Take the win and all the bounty that comes with it away, and move on to the next contest. The convoluted mess they come up with trying to tiptoe around the subject is much worse.
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Even the NCAA and the IOc, organizations as greedy and obsessed with the show as any ever, have been known to negate wins.
 
VaDirt said:
You say you've been watching racing your entire life, but not sure you've been paying attention. But that's the way it is at just about every track across America, with the exception of NASCAR's top-three series. Car goes through tech and fails, win goes to the first legal car across the line. Hell, I've been asked to shoot some victory lane pics the following week because the guy that was given the win didn't get a chance. And just two weeks ago, saw everything from 2nd on get moved up immediately because the red light (didn't make weight) came on at the scales.
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Just because its done that way across America doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I just happen to think NASCAR does it the right way.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Even the NCAA and the IOc, organizations as greedy and obsessed with the show as any ever, have been known to negate wins.
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I know and I think its a sham. Those teams still won those games and championships even if the NCAA wants to negate them.
 
Simple Fan said:
I know and I think its a sham. Those teams still won those games and championships even if the NCAA wants to negate them.
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No, they didn't win. They cheated. Remember that old saying "winners never cheat, cheater never win?" Well, it holds true (or should.) Letting the win stand, "encumbered" or not, doesn't stop the cheating.
Simple Fan said:
Just because its done that way across America doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I just happen to think NASCAR does it the right way.
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You're in the minority then. Letting a known cheater keep a win does nothing but encourage cheating. Period.
 
VaDirt said:
No, they didn't win. They cheated. Remember that old saying "winners never cheat, cheater never win?" Well, it holds true (or should.) Letting the win stand, "encumbered" or not, doesn't stop the cheating.

You're in the minority then. Letting a known cheater keep a win does nothing but encourage cheating. Period.
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I have no problem being in the minority and know I am. There would be no post race inspection if it was up to me. Should be one before the race and thats it.
 
Can't believe I'm in near complete agreement with @StandOnIt. I knew it could happen!

Simple Fan said:
Just because its done that way across America doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I just happen to think NASCAR does it the right way.
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The right way? It might be the expedient way, but "right", if that word is to mean anything at all?

Simple Fan said:
I know and I think its a sham. Those teams still won those games and championships even if the NCAA wants to negate them.
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Hmm. As always your logic is...challenging. You are seemingly making an argument that anything goes. But maybe not. Is there any conduct you would disqualify and change results for? Do you just believe that punishment should only come in the form of other sanctions? I'm struggling to understand why you think preserving results that are found to be illegitimate is not just okay, but desirable.
 
Simple Fan said:
I know and I think its a sham. Those teams still won those games and championships even if the NCAA wants to negate them.
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Just of interest, because it doesn't look like we'll agree on this one, how do you feel about penalties on individual plays? Say, leaving the pit box with equipment, throwing a spitball, or having too many men on the field?
 
StandOnIt said:
Stewart's track doesn't fool with them

Five Disqualified Following the Dirt Late Model Dream at Eldora Speedway
http://www.eldoraspeedway.com/2016/...the-dirt-late-model-dream-at-eldora-speedway/
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What makes it even more galling that grass roots dirt tracks are willing to take a stand and NASCAR isn't is that the disqualified drivers sued Eldora over that. It was later thrown out by the court and withdrawn, but a lawsuit could be a major impediment for a smaller operation. No established team would sue NASCAR over a disqualification unless they wanted to be blackballed and ruined.
 
gnomesayin said:
Is there any conduct you would disqualify and change results for? Do you just believe that punishment should only come in the form of other sanctions? I'm struggling to understand why you think preserving results that are found to be illegitimate is not just okay, but desirable.
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To me its all about the driver. Why punish a driver by taking a win when he had nothing to do with the car's splitter being off a bit or something silly like that. They suspend the CC chief which is the right thing to do in my opinion. Alot of what NASCAR deems cheating is laughable and yeah they have way to much inspection as it is I think. To me racing is about winning and if you take the win away you have nothing, the race meant nothing and if you give it to someone else that didn't earn it, that makes NASCAR look like a joke in my opinion.
 
The thing is the amount of inspections make cheating pretty hard and minor compared to things like late models where you can **** with the tires and car weight quite a bit
 
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