SO I AM READING A BOOK....

[Revman]

So, I hate reading.....but I found a book that I cannot put down......It is Indy Split by John Oreovicz. Obviously, the book is about the Indy Car/Champ Car split and open wheel racing, However, there are many elements of the book that spur thoughts about NASCAR. One is the divide between USAC and the owners (who would eventually evolve into CART) over boost levels in the late 70s. So, this got me thinking about engine formulas for NASCAR into the future. I think we all understand that eventually there will be some sort of electrification in the short term......and likely it will be utilizing the pushrod V8. What about further down the line? Clearly, other manufacturers shy away from NASCAR, and IMO will continue to do so as the V8 becomes extinct. It appears to me that the "new" V8 is a boosted 6 with hybrid power. My thinking is that if this is the case, the discussion about horsepower changes drastically doesn't it....as we think about boost levels, etc. circling back to my original point. What about a boosted hybrid which is the engine of the future with the ability to change boost levels and horsepower?

 

[Charlie Spencer]

Interesting questions, although I know even less about the subject than I do about ICEs.

Heck, I'm still trying to accept that you can read.

 

[gone]

The Busch Series used a V6 during the mid-1980s through the mid-1990s. A lot of people complained about how it sounded. Since that technology is about 30 years old it could take some effort to apply it to today's V6 engines. Of course, those were naturally aspirated and worked without incorporating a second power source. But if that were the rules I'm confident that mechanics would be up to the challenge.

Racing a hybrid would be interesting. Particularly if they limited the battery size, so teams would have to strategically utilize their battery power boost. Sort-of like how some F1 and Indy cars had limited use of turbo boost. I might use battery boost on restarts, or if there was a place on the track (probably a road course) where I could slingshot out of a curve to pass somebody, or if I thought I could use it while out-braking somebody. If everybody had the same amount of limited boost available, it would be interesting to figure out how to use it better than they do.

Might be able to adapt some hybrid technology from F1, although F1 engines are more exotic than street engines. Other than a few supercars, here are no hybrid street cars that have a V8 engine. But NASCAR already only pretends than its cars follow the form and function of street cars...

 

[Greg]

I am kind of surprised that Nascar has not set up a maximum fuel limit per race (at least I don't think they have any current limits). A team would get so many gallons per race and if you exhausted that amount you would be done for the day.

That limit would drive some new development, innovations and race strategies. But it would cost more as well $o that will not happen, they will keep running what they got a$ long it i$ working.

 

[StandOnIt]

 

[Charlie Spencer]

A team would get so many gallons per race and if you exhausted that amount you would be done for the day.

That would probably kill unlimited GWCs, so it sounds like a win for everyone

 

[Greg]

View attachment 75531

Endle$$ billboard opportuniti$

 

[StandOnIt]

TheRunning on empty 500

 

[Charlie Spencer]

TheRunning on empty 500

Post-race concert by Jackson Browne? Come for the race, stay for 'The Load Out'!

 

[Greg]

View attachment 75531

I still think going with a hybrid power unit/ wind up booster would be the way to go.

The cars would start the races with a comination battery + ICE power unit with a supplememtal wind up and the mobile wind up key for the pit stops to increase their overall horse power.

Visualize a pit stop without a gasman who is now using his athletic skills to insert the keyway and then apply as many turns as possibile during a tire change. The visual would be something incredibile to behold as the commentators counted off with glee about who got the most turns and boost during pit stops. It would also be easy to understand as the car(s) with the most windup demonstated their newfound horsepower advantages.
The wind-up man would becone the new rock stars.

Just think of the gerbil heaven and ecstasy that Jeff Burton would be experiencing and expressing....

 

[StandOnIt]

Other forms of propulsion needs to be included. It might be outlawed as it will singe the fur off of careless gerbils if they get too close when they are babbling and wandering aimlessly on the track.

 

[Revman]

Twin turbo hybrid with the ability to adjust boost. Want more power? Spin the dial. The fact that we are racing 8's is going to catch up with us very, very quickly if it hasn't already. Find an 8 cylinder in anything anymore. I know they don't want to spend money on it, but I fear that very soon it will be laughable to race an 8 in a stock car series. There is literally 0 chance that any other manufacturer comes to this series without an engine formula change.

 

[FLRacingFan]

Smaller displacement V8 with a mild spec hybrid. I think at least Ford and GM still see value in the V8, and I don’t think the series and fan base are ready to part with it yet. The powertrain regulations two cycles away is where the big changes will come.

 

[Charlie Spencer]

Visualize a pit stop without a gasman who is now using his athletic skills to insert the keyway and then apply as many turns as possibile during a tire change. The visual would be something incredibile to behold as the commentators counted off with glee about who got the most turns and boost during pit stops. It would also be easy to understand as the car(s) with the most windup demonstated their newfound horsepower advantages.

It's all fun and games until a car leaves the pits with the key still in...

 

[Revman]

Smaller displacement V8 with a mild spec hybrid. I think at least Ford and GM still see value in the V8, and I don’t think the series and fan base are ready to part with it yet. The powertrain regulations two cycles away is where the big changes will come.

I hear you, but the industry is moving fast. V8 already seems archaic....and if the engine doesn't matter, then we go spec.....or you all go spec because I will be out. Won't support that. I checked out on the trucks when they went that way.

 

[FLRacingFan]

I hear you, but the industry is moving fast. V8 already seems archaic....and if the engine doesn't matter, then we go spec.....or you all go spec because I will be out. Won't support that. I checked out on the trucks when they went that way.

When was the last time the engine formula really had anything in common with road cars? The Cup Series is still big enough that manufacturers are seemingly okay with building bespoke racing engines. Lots of work has been done to make engines last longer, for sure, but if Hamlin is anyone to go by the engine leases aren’t any cheaper anyways.

I think there is some degree of paralysis by analysis with how they’ve had been kicking the can down the road with trying to decide the next set of rules and attract another OEM. Industry trends change fast, so whatever is en vogue one year is out of style the next. I think a smaller displacement makes sense because we aren’t maximizing the full potential of these engines anyways. A mild hybrid could make for some interesting strategy depending on how it’s implemented. Ultimately the whole package could retain the traditional sound, be more powerful and, by NASCAR standards, be innovative enough to be technologically interesting. And if another car company really wanted to be here, they would be.

 

[FLRacingFan]

Sounds like Ford are gonna race V8s as long as they’re allowed.

"What other car in the world races on six continents on any given weekend? And that’s because we have a V8 engine,” said Farley.

You'll Have To Pry The V8 Mustang Out Of Ford's Cold, Dead Hands

The Ford Mustang's V8 engine is something that will continue well into the future, at least according to Ford CEO Jim Farley.

www.motor1.com

 

[Revman]

When was the last time the engine formula really had anything in common with road cars? The Cup Series is still big enough that manufacturers are seemingly okay with building bespoke racing engines. Lots of work has been done to make engines last longer, for sure, but if Hamlin is anyone to go by the engine leases aren’t any cheaper anyways.

I think there is some degree of paralysis by analysis with how they’ve had been kicking the can down the road with trying to decide the next set of rules and attract another OEM. Industry trends change fast, so whatever is en vogue one year is out of style the next. I think a smaller displacement makes sense because we aren’t maximizing the full potential of these engines anyways. A mild hybrid could make for some interesting strategy depending on how it’s implemented. Ultimately the whole package could retain the traditional sound, be more powerful and, by NASCAR standards, be innovative enough to be technologically interesting. And if another car company really wanted to be here, they would be.

The GTD class in IMSA....and that series is attracting a lot of manufacturers. New OEMs won't come to NASCAR, but they will go there. The engine has to be an expression of something that is relevant to road cars IMO, and pushrod V8s ain't it. WRC has it right IMO--although there is internal bitching about it--4 cylinder turbo hybrids. WEC.....turbo 6 hybrid......Again, I don't know if there is squat for carry over into road cars, but I feel like racing should be an expression of a brand....and an expression that embraces a formula that is basically dead with all due respect to the article @FLRacingFan posted is not the right direction. I get that NASCAR teams don't want to drop the cash right now, but can you imagine the stir a new engine formula would draw against a back drop of a quasi-spec series? I think it would be pretty cool, and attractive to new OEMs.

 

[Revman]

Sounds like Ford are gonna race V8s as long as they’re allowed.

You'll Have To Pry The V8 Mustang Out Of Ford's Cold, Dead Hands

The Ford Mustang's V8 engine is something that will continue well into the future, at least according to Ford CEO Jim Farley.

www.motor1.com

Great post man! Thank you! HUGE props to Ford and Farley for sticking to their guns, and pushing the brand identity from an OEM perspective. I freaking love this. I feel like what he is talking about is the crucial element that has been lost in the NASCAR narrative. There is way too much emphasis on the drivers, and not enough on their rides. The brand identity and connectedness to an OEM is what attracts me to this sport obviously. Again, big respect for Ford.....but as I noted the 8 ain't it, but the passion and brand identity is it. Kinda makes me wonder if Farley isn't throwing down a gauntlet? Hmmmmmmmm........

 

[FLRacingFan]

The GTD class in IMSA....and that series is attracting a lot of manufacturers. New OEMs won't come to NASCAR, but they will go there. The engine has to be an expression of something that is relevant to road cars IMO, and pushrod V8s ain't it. WRC has it right IMO--although there is internal bitching about it--4 cylinder turbo hybrids. WEC.....turbo 6 hybrid......Again, I don't know if there is squat for carry over into road cars, but I feel like racing should be an expression of a brand....and an expression that embraces a formula that is basically dead with all due respect to the article @FLRacingFan posted is not the right direction. I get that NASCAR teams don't want to drop the cash right now, but can you imagine the stir a new engine formula would draw against a back drop of a quasi-spec series? I think it would be pretty cool, and attractive to new OEMs.

Well, I can’t disagree that there’s a lot of manufacturer involvement in GT3 racing at the moment. As it relates to the original point, GT racing has yet to go hybrid, and in some cases (Ferrari 296, Acura NSX) they’ve had to decouple the electric component from the road car to go to racing. And many of those engines are still naturally aspirated and/or V8 architecture - including the new Corvette, Mustang, Lexus, and quite possibly the 2026 Lexus as well.