“Put anyone in that car and they will win”

BobbyFord said:
Like with Mark, consistency is all driver, not car. Get on a radio and listen to Kyle when he’s driving junk and still beating half of the field. A good driver can wheel a bad car. A bad driver can struggle with a good car.
Anyone think Cope would win in the 4,18, 2, 22, 41?
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It's both. I mean, if Mark Martin went to Yates in 1994 or Hendrick in 2000, who is to say the wins aren't more frequent? Like Harvick with RCR, and Chase with Hendrick now, Mark Martin carried Roush for a decade.
 
jaqua19 said:
I just find it funny how its, "car wins", for everyone except Kyle Busch, as if he's the only one who can makeup a tenth or two on the best cars all year.

Despite other drivers doing it year after year.

Someone holds off Kyle, or finds an extra tenth or two on a final run? Car. 18 does it? Its all Kyle. 5

But yeah, its Kyle who wins on skill, and would be a 7x champion if it was all skill. Despite there being a 7x champion who has won 30+ races on clutch driving, and has a better resume when it comes to winning with non dominant cars.

Fact of the matter is that prime JJ won more races with non-dominant cars than Kyle has, so whats the difference?


Its a fair balance between driver and car. Today, just a tad more than car.

But lets not pretend Kyle is the Only driver who can find an extra tenth or two. Its ignorant and disrespectful to other good drivers

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Michael Schumacher made his mark as one of the best drivers ever (I hear ya Senna fans) by driving a piece of **** Ferrari in 1996. It wasn't until then, that fans realized that he was worth 2-5 tenths just strapping in. I think that NASCAR is more brutal than that, but I do believe that Kyle Busch is worth two to three tenths. Look at him relative to the competition and look at him relative to his teammates. To not appreciate that is to miss out on enjoying a tremendous talent. Kyle has put Toyota on the map. There are no manufacturers titles or drivers titles (including MTJ) without him. Period. Much like Schumacher, Kyle forced Toyota and TRD to raise the bar. Yes, the Camry is good, but it isn't what it is without Kyle Busch.
 
Revman said:
Michael Schumacher made his mark as one of the best drivers ever (I hear ya Senna fans) by driving a piece of sh!t Ferrari in 1996. It wasn't until then, that fans realized that he was worth 2-5 tenths just strapping in. I think that NASCAR is more brutal than that, but I do believe that Kyle Busch is worth two to three tenths. Look at him relative to the competition and look at him relative to his teammates. To not appreciate that is to miss out on enjoying a tremendous talent. Kyle has put Toyota on the map. There are no manufacturers titles or drivers titles (including MTJ) without him. Period. Much like Schumacher, Kyle forced Toyota and TRD to raise the bar. Yes, the Camry is good, but it isn't what it is without Kyle Busch.
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Michael who?
 
BobbyFord said:
I didn’t know he was gone.
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Not gone --- "On 29 December 2013, Schumacher suffered a traumatic brain injury in a skiing accident. He was placed in a medically induced coma for six months until 16 June 2014. He left the hospital in Grenoble for further rehabilitation at the University Hospital of Lausanne. On 9 September 2014, Schumacher was relocated to his home where he continues to receive medical treatment and rehabilitation privately. As of 2016 he remained unable to walk or stand." From Wikepedia.

Next to Senna, he was my favorite.
 
Revman said:
Yeah, the car has everything to do with it, and I love it. Manufacturers (and teams) need to step up before NASCAR takes the car out of the equation, and we have a spec series which will be the death blow for NASCAR. Right now, Ford has the package (handed to them by NASCAR). I love it. This is absolutely their championship to lose on the driver's and manufacturer's side. I love MY Toyotas as the underdogs, and take huge joy in the listening to the crickets as the Fords tend to be 1-2 tenths better especially on the 1.5's. Remember Kez's "rude awakening" bull****? Seems like a long time ago. Anyway, it boggles my mind that NASCAR went to a package next year to "level the playing field." What separates this sport from others is the car, and we do everything we can to take it out of the equation. ******* why? WHY? Take that element away, and we are left to compare our athletes to the likes of Lebron. There is no comparison.
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I’ll give you that Ford was handed aero package if you’ll concede that NASCAR intervened and cut hp with tapered spacer because YOUR TRD engine department couldn’t figure out how to build a V8 with enough hp that wouldn’t hand grenade itself.
 
TexasRaceLady said:
Not gone --- "On 29 December 2013, Schumacher suffered a traumatic brain injury in a skiing accident. He was placed in a medically induced coma for six months until 16 June 2014. He left the hospital in Grenoble for further rehabilitation at the University Hospital of Lausanne. On 9 September 2014, Schumacher was relocated to his home where he continues to receive medical treatment and rehabilitation privately. As of 2016 he remained unable to walk or stand." From Wikepedia.

Next to Senna, he was my favorite.
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I had no idea. I’ve never been a fan of open wheel.
 
Revman said:
Michael Schumacher made his mark as one of the best drivers ever (I hear ya Senna fans) by driving a piece of sh!t Ferrari in 1996. It wasn't until then, that fans realized that he was worth 2-5 tenths just strapping in. I think that NASCAR is more brutal than that, but I do believe that Kyle Busch is worth two to three tenths. Look at him relative to the competition and look at him relative to his teammates. To not appreciate that is to miss out on enjoying a tremendous talent. Kyle has put Toyota on the map. There are no manufacturers titles or drivers titles (including MTJ) without him. Period. Much like Schumacher, Kyle forced Toyota and TRD to raise the bar. Yes, the Camry is good, but it isn't what it is without Kyle Busch.
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I completely agree.

My point is that this isn't exclusively a Kyle Busch characteristic. He isnt the only cup driver who could find an extra tenth or 2.

Remember 2015 at Texas? Brad leads 300+ of the 325 laps. No one stayed within a second for longer than 2 laps. JJ ran at best 3 all day, and somehow found an extra 3 tenths that final run.

I remember the race thread, on this site. People were saying things like, "48 still the best driver in NASCAR" "if it was any other driver, Brad wins that race". Jimmie's entire career is being worth 2+ tenths in clutch situations.

2016 at Kansas. Carl Edwards has the race locked up, Harvick gets a killer restart. And manages to gain a 10th, relative to the previous run. Matching laptimes vs Carl.

Tony Stewart did this countlessly too.

It absolutely a sign of Kyle's talent, and to deny it would be absurd. At this point, he may be the best in the garage, given we are in the middle of a turnover. But Kyle's fans tend to talk about this as if its something Kyle has that other drivers don't. The fact of the matter is that for 10+ years of his career, there were two other drivers who also posessed this quality while putting up similar, and superior numbers.

Kyle is one of the best raw talents, but he is absolutely not the only driver today who can gain you an extra tenth or two, and most certainly not the only driver of the last 15+ years to do so. That's all. Kyle is as good as any other all time great shy of maybe 5-10 drivers who could do the same thing. Acknowledging other drivers were just as reliable for extra speed is no knock against Kyle at all.

Its just that when you are as good as he is, he is gonna naturally start to be measured against his contemporaries and superiors which itself is ratified air for someone only 34.

Kyle has longevity on his side which is amazing...hes gonna break some long term records, and starts and put up a lot of wins. During the first 10+ years of his career he was only outdriven by TWO drivers in arguably the most competitive era in the history of the sport. One of ehich is arguably the GOAT of NASCAR, and the other is a 3x champ, who has won championships in every professional racing series he's been in, is regarded as one of the best race car drivers ever across the board, and arguably a top 10 nascar driver all time. The latter of which he will probably have a superior career to.



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Justin Marks is good at road courses (and it was rain), Ross Chastain admittedly has been a little surprising, JHN & Bowman have already shown their talent. It's not like these guys are slouches.
 
jaqua19 said:
I completely agree.

My point is that this isn't exclusively a Kyle Busch characteristic. He isnt the only cup driver who could find an extra tenth or 2.

Remember 2015 at Texas? Brad leads 300+ of the 325 laps. No one stayed within a second for longer than 2 laps. JJ ran at best 3 all day, and somehow found an extra 3 tenths that final run.

I remember the race thread, on this site. People were saying things like, "48 still the best driver in NASCAR" "if it was any other driver, Brad wins that race". Jimmie's entire career is being worth 2+ tenths in clutch situations.

2016 at Kansas. Carl Edwards has the race locked up, Harvick gets a killer restart. And manages to gain a 10th, relative to the previous run. Matching laptimes vs Carl.

Tony Stewart did this countlessly too.

It absolutely a sign of Kyle's talent, and to deny it would be absurd. At this point, he may be the best in the garage, given we are in the middle of a turnover. But Kyle's fans tend to talk about this as if its something Kyle has that other drivers don't. The fact of the matter is that for 10+ years of his career, there were two other drivers who also posessed this quality while putting up similar, and superior numbers.

Kyle is one of the best raw talents, but he is absolutely not the only driver today who can gain you an extra tenth or two, and most certainly not the only driver of the last 15+ years to do so. That's all. Kyle is as good as any other all time great shy of maybe 5-10 drivers who could do the same thing. Acknowledging other drivers were just as reliable for extra speed is no knock against Kyle at all.

Its just that when you are as good as he is, he is gonna naturally start to be measured against his contemporaries and superiors which itself is ratified air for someone only 34.

Kyle has longevity on his side which is amazing...hes gonna break some long term records, and starts and put up a lot of wins. During the first 10+ years of his career he was only outdriven by TWO drivers in arguably the most competitive era in the history of the sport. One of ehich is arguably the GOAT of NASCAR, and the other is a 3x champ, who has won championships in every professional racing series he's been in, is regarded as one of the best race car drivers ever across the board, and arguably a top 10 nascar driver all time. The latter of which he will probably have a superior career to.



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Fair post man. I think that the Kyle Nation stuff sounds louder against the hater backdrop. Anytime a driver does the unthinkable, that fanbase is going to go off. Take Jimmie for example, against the vanilla backdrop and the lukewarm appreciation this sport has always had for him, his fanbase's voice sounds quieter. I hear you man. Good stuff.
 
Revman said:
Yeah, the car has everything to do with it, and I love it. Manufacturers (and teams) need to step up before NASCAR takes the car out of the equation, and we have a spec series which will be the death blow for NASCAR. Right now, Ford has the package (handed to them by NASCAR). I love it. This is absolutely their championship to lose on the driver's and manufacturer's side. I love MY Toyotas as the underdogs, and take huge joy in the listening to the crickets as the Fords tend to be 1-2 tenths better especially on the 1.5's. Remember Kez's "rude awakening" bull****? Seems like a long time ago. Anyway, it boggles my mind that NASCAR went to a package next year to "level the playing field." What separates this sport from others is the car, and we do everything we can to take it out of the equation. ******* why? WHY? Take that element away, and we are left to compare our athletes to the likes of Lebron. There is no comparison.
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Wasn't all of this stuff already tried before with IROC?
 
TexasRaceLady said:
Not gone --- "On 29 December 2013, Schumacher suffered a traumatic brain injury in a skiing accident. He was placed in a medically induced coma for six months until 16 June 2014. He left the hospital in Grenoble for further rehabilitation at the University Hospital of Lausanne. On 9 September 2014, Schumacher was relocated to his home where he continues to receive medical treatment and rehabilitation privately. As of 2016 he remained unable to walk or stand." From Wikepedia.

Next to Senna, he was my favorite.
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I didn't mean dead....but gone. Can't see him. Can't hear from him. Cheated of his memory of what he did. What he was thinking. What Ferrari meant to him. Damn, he was just amazing. Just fabulous. I remember Mayalsia after he came back from a broken leg in 1999. He was trying to help Eddie Irvine win the Championship. He got in front of Hakkinen to block for Eddie. Michael changed his breaking points almost every lap. He wore Mika out. Hakkinen just about passed on on the podium. Michael was even one of the greatest ever running second. LOL.
 
“You can’t drive a slow car fast”-Kevin Harvick

Engineering and resources are everything. Look at what HMS did before they got their OSS system they looked out to lunch. Once they got it Chase won a couple weeks later and looks to be a strong contender for Homestead
 
Tumbleweed said:
Wasn't all of this stuff already tried before with IROC?
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Revman said:
Yes.
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nope, one company built and designed all of the cars. different people were employed over the years when they used different brands of vehicles
The First IROC Chevrolet Camaros Built by Roger Penske and Mark Donohue in 1974
http://www.superchevy.com/features/...ilt-by-roger-penske-and-mark-donohue-in-1974/

StandOnIt said:
It is impossible to make the cars the same. Very similar if the same company built all of them, but they don't.
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did ya forget from one page to the next

Revman said:
Of course it's impossible, and there is nothing wrong with that. Part of the awesomeness of this sport is to watch Kyle Busch take a car clearly 1-2 tenths slower than the SHR Fords, and watch him wheel it to get close. If you are spec, that aspect is gone, and it is simply driver v. driver in a sport which is more than that. It is a shame that when a manufacturer gets an edge, the obsession of this fan base is to take it away......I should have said when MY Toyotas get an edge. Love the sound of those crickets. Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirp.....
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End of today's race was a perfect example. Kyle Busch ran Chase Elliott down then couldn't do anything. Kyle Larson ran both down and couldn't do anything. That had absolutely nothing to do with talent. Dale Jr even said as much when he said, as Busch was closing, that he would hit a brick wall once he got within a certain point.

With the Gen-6 car, talent doesn't matter as much.

Used to be that you could see someone take a 20th place car and run in the top-5. You'd see a bunch of "average" teams make noise. That doesn't happen anymore.

I think Kyle Busch is the most talented driver in history but there is no way he could get in David Ragan's car and runs up front consistently.

Conversely, a subpar driver won't get in an elite car and rattle off wins.

However, in today's NASCAR which has been ruined by aerodynamics and engineering in more ways than one, it's more likely you'll see a subpar driver have a great run in a good car than it is to see a good driver have a great run in a subpar car.
 
Revman said:
Michael Schumacher made his mark as one of the best drivers ever (I hear ya Senna fans) by driving a piece of sh!t Ferrari in 1996. It wasn't until then, that fans realized that he was worth 2-5 tenths just strapping in. I think that NASCAR is more brutal than that, but I do believe that Kyle Busch is worth two to three tenths. Look at him relative to the competition and look at him relative to his teammates. To not appreciate that is to miss out on enjoying a tremendous talent. Kyle has put Toyota on the map. There are no manufacturers titles or drivers titles (including MTJ) without him. Period. Much like Schumacher, Kyle forced Toyota and TRD to raise the bar. Yes, the Camry is good, but it isn't what it is without Kyle Busch.
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But Hamlin took Toyota to the final race and Carl took them to the final lap.
KB sure is part of the success story as it was probably his suggestions ( and changing CC's)
that brought Toyota their success.
Was it Jeff who brought HMS the success for JJ ??
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
End of today's race was a perfect example. Kyle Busch ran Chase Elliott down then couldn't do anything. Kyle Larson ran both down and couldn't do anything. That had absolutely nothing to do with talent. Dale Jr even said as much when he said, as Busch was closing, that he would hit a brick wall once he got within a certain point.

With the Gen-6 car, talent doesn't matter as much.

Used to be that you could see someone take a 20th place car and run in the top-5. You'd see a bunch of "average" teams make noise. That doesn't happen anymore.

I think Kyle Busch is the most talented driver in history but there is no way he could get in David Ragan's car and runs up front consistently.

Conversely, a subpar driver won't get in an elite car and rattle off wins.

However, in today's NASCAR which has been ruined by aerodynamics and engineering in more ways than one, it's more likely you'll see a subpar driver have a great run in a good car than it is to see a good driver have a great run in a subpar car.
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for once I agree with Andy, but some solutions are in place to counteract the problems that will hopefully change it from the F-1 type science projects they have on track now. Most fans aren't in awe of engineering projects, they want to see a close hard fought battle, and cars that obviously aren't as fast as the top teams but with a good driver they can get a decent finish, not some driver who because of more money and technology is able to run out front in clean air and be virtually unpassible. F-1 is in that shape, and most of F-1 fans are casuals who show up for a big must see event once a year in their country rather than avid racing fans. nothing wrong with that it works for them. It isn't working as well for Nascar because many fans come from the smaller tracks, dirt or pavement where the style of racing is a different animal.
 
StandOnIt said:
for once I agree with Andy, but some solutions are in place to counteract the problems that will hopefully change it from the F-1 type science projects they have on track now. Most fans aren't in awe of engineering projects, they want to see a close hard fought battle, and cars that obviously aren't as fast as the top teams but with a good driver they can get a decent finish, not some driver who because of more money and technology is able to run out front in clean air and be virtually unpassible. F-1 is in that shape, and most of F-1 fans are casuals who show up for a big must see event once a year in their country rather than avid racing fans. nothing wrong with that it works for them. It isn't working as well for Nascar because many fans come from the smaller tracks, dirt or pavement where the style of racing is a different animal.
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This is an excellent post. The sad part of the story is that F-1 tried all kinds of ways to defeat physics, and they failed too. Not sure that the All Star Package is going to give you what you are looking for. There simply is no replacement for well funded teams and manufacturers IMO. These science projects which everybody hates are mirrored by similar process on the consumer side. You cannot go back, and really, who would want to? The only reason we screw with this is to contain costs. You blow this wide open, you will get your racing back. However, you will also run the sport into the ground. I get that. I have never believed that gimmicky fixes are the answer. Widening the box is IMO, but I get that it is a slippery slope. I believe that next year's package is a crucial turning point for the sport. It is going to cost a ton of money to do this. If it fails--and I think we will end up with something similar with what we have, but instead pissed off and bored drivers--I think that NASCAR will be in real trouble. You cannot attract a fanbase with drivers who hate the sport.
 
The car is a factor but not the only factor. The driver and the team are also part of a win. Plus the car, the driver, or the team can lose a race.
 
Kurt Busch was a midpack driver in James Finch's cars. Alex Bowman was a backmarker for Premium Motorsports or whatever garbage team, then he goes to the 88 and immediately competes for the win at Phoenix. Bowyer runs terrible in Harry Scott's cars, then look at what he does in the 14.

Look at Chastain's dramatic improvement going to the 42. Look at Preece going to the 18. The "most talented driver ever" Kyle Busch wins half his Xfinity races in the Gibbs cars, yet he couldn't win a single race in his KBM cars.

It's clearly more about the car than the driver.
 
Revman said:
This is an excellent post. The sad part of the story is that F-1 tried all kinds of ways to defeat physics, and they failed too. Not sure that the All Star Package is going to give you what you are looking for. There simply is no replacement for well funded teams and manufacturers IMO. These science projects which everybody hates are mirrored by similar process on the consumer side. You cannot go back, and really, who would want to? The only reason we screw with this is to contain costs. You blow this wide open, you will get your racing back. However, you will also run the sport into the ground. I get that. I have never believed that gimmicky fixes are the answer. Widening the box is IMO, but I get that it is a slippery slope. I believe that next year's package is a crucial turning point for the sport. It is going to cost a ton of money to do this. If it fails--and I think we will end up with something similar with what we have, but instead pissed off and bored drivers--I think that NASCAR will be in real trouble. You cannot attract a fanbase with drivers who hate the sport.
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There have always been drivers who at some point hate the sport. Most always loved the money.
 
2 Sweet said:
Kurt Busch was a midpack driver in James Finch's cars. Alex Bowman was a backmarker for Premium Motorsports or whatever garbage team, then he goes to the 88 and immediately competes for the win at Phoenix. Bowyer runs terrible in Harry Scott's cars, then look at what he does in the 14.

Look at Chastain's dramatic improvement going to the 42. Look at Preece going to the 18. The "most talented driver ever" Kyle Busch wins half his Xfinity races in the Gibbs cars, yet he couldn't win a single race in his KBM cars.

It's clearly more about the car than the driver.
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And Kurt won with FRR pre-JGR. :idunno:
 
There are certainly guys who still manage to drag their car through the field and put it in places where it shouldn't be. And there are guys who could be (and are) given good equipment and don't do much with it. Equipment and crew chief probably mean more than they should given how costs still haven't fallen to a place reasonable enough for the current state of NASCAR though. But compared to some other motorsport categories, NASCAR manages to place a better emphasis on driver than many. I suspect in the future NASCAR will make more parts of the car common/spec parts but it's hard to turn back the clock.
 
I think of it like this. Senna drove a piece of crap when he first started and almost won. Sr. could drive a crap car to the front too. But if you put timmy hill in kyle busches car he might not do well.
 
BobbyFord said:
Like with Mark, consistency is all driver, not car. Get on a radio and listen to Kyle when he’s driving junk and still beating half of the field. A good driver can wheel a bad car. A bad driver can struggle with a good car.
Anyone think Cope would win in the 4,18, 2, 22, 41?
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I think he won in the 10
 
It takes a good team to built a first class car and a driver can make a difference. Get the right combo and you can dominate - for awhile (e.g. the 48).
 
StandOnIt said:
I'll go with driver makes A difference, but in today's Nascar you are not going to do much unless you have one of the chosen few cars out there.
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Not a Amirola fan, huh?
 
Larsonfan1995 said:
He never won but he did have a couple second places, and then Truex ran 20th with the car all the next year. Not sure if the equipment got worse or not in 2014.
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They had an alliance with RCR who replaced Harvick's input with Austin Dillon's...so the equipment likely got worse.
 
StandOnIt said:
I'll go with driver makes A difference, but in today's Nascar you are not going to do much unless you have one of the chosen few cars out there.
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I'll agree with this, but you can say the same for series that are largely spec too. Better teams will always get more out of the equipment regardless of how many common parts there are.
 
Revman said:
Not a Amirola fan, huh?
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Big fan of Almirola, while in the 43 he kept the fenders on it and did the best he could with the equipment he had to work with. There is more than one driver out there doing the same thing that isn't in one of the handful of faster cars. Hopefully next year will take a bit of the gap away in the mid pack ranks and there will be more racing for spots in the mid pack area.
 
The 2019 rules should dumb things down enough and penalize the best teams to the point of making things closer for the lesser teams.
 
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