2011 Daytona 500: An Opinion On The Two-Car Drafts

dpkimmel2001

dpkimmel2001

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A realistic look at what restrictor plate racing has become. For now anyway.

From link.

As a NASCAR fan, there are really only two ways to view the new two-car hookups which will undoubtedly dominate Sunday's Daytona 500.

Your first option is you can hate it. You can get upset that the famous pack racing is gone, scream at your TV and make angry phone calls to NASCAR about how they've ruined the Daytona 500.

Your second option is you can accept it and deal with it. Some of you can even grow to like it, though only about one quarter of you say you do right now.

Let's be honest: In the interest of reason, Option No. 2 is your best bet. I say this because there is nothing – at least nothing reasonable – that can be done about the two-car tandems.

The two-car drafts are here. And they're not going anywhere.

You may think that stinks. I don't disagree with you. But what are you going to do about it?

Heck, what can NASCAR do about it? It's really not NASCAR's fault this time. Don't you remember the huge pothole in the track last year? It had to be repaved. Repaving it was the only smart thing that could be done there.

And once the track was repaved, the door was opened for drivers to expand upon what they'd learned the last few years at Talladega. Let the pushing begin.

Maybe NASCAR didn't anticipate the drivers had figured out just how long they could push. That may have been a mistake. But even if NASCAR had seen this coming, what could they do?

Could NASCAR ban the push-draft? No, they've tried that. Passing a rule outlawing pairs racing would leave NASCAR in the same predicament it saw at Talladega in October '09.

You probably remember that race because it may have been the worst restrictor-plate race ever. And it's what ultimately decided on "Boys, have at it" as the new drafting policy.

So passing a rule is not an option. How about changing something technical on the cars?

That hasn't seemed to work, either. NASCAR already tried to break up the two-car drafts by mandating a pop-off valve and shrinking the grille opening in hopes the cars would start to overheat sooner – therefore discouraging the drafting.

It maybe limited the number of paired-up laps to four or five at a time, but it didn't do much else.

What else can NASCAR do?

Until the track wears out and begins to lose its grip – making cars slip and slide through the corners like on the old surface – this is the kind of racing we'll see at both Daytona and Talladega.

Pack racing is gone, folks. And it's not coming back...at least for the next five years or so.

Obviously, that's not ideal. The four restrictor-plate races each season became must-watch events because the pack racing was so compelling. Each event left viewers perched on the edge of their seats, holding their breath for 500 miles.

The Big One. The drama of having 30 cars cross the finish line within one second of each other. The lottery-ball nature of the winners.

All gone.

And now? We have a bunch of cars running around attached to one another like mating dragonflies.

So it's not great. But as viewers, it's what we're all going to deal with for 500 miles on Sunday.

The biggest positive about the two-car drafts is that even if the final 30 or 40 laps are green (which is unlikely), we're guaranteed an interesting finish. At the last second, the pushing car will try and pull out, likely creating a side-by-side finish for the Daytona 500.

And memorable finishes are often what make a race, right?

Unfortunately, there will likely be portions of the 500 miles that are strung out and dotted with two-car pairings all over the track. To longtime NASCAR fans, that's ugly.

NASCAR would be wise not to offer "most lead changes ever" and other similar statistics as "proof" that the race is great. Viewers know what they see, and statistics aren't going to change many opinions if the racing isn't compelling.

On the other hand, it also won't do you or me or anyone else much good to throw a temper tantrum about how much the two-car tandems suck compared to the big packs.

Getting angry at NASCAR for the two-car drafts is like being mad at a racetrack for not having a dome over it in the event of a rain delay. These situations – whether a thunderstorm or the perfect storm that created two-car drafting – is beyond everyone's control.

So when you sit down to watch the 200 mph do-si-do of synchronized racing on Sunday, it's OK if you don't love it. But the reality is this is what we've got, and you might as well just deal with it along with the rest of us.
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It is what it is and it ain't changin anytime soon pretty much sums it up.
 
That article reads like it was written by Brian France Jr's PR machine. It's not NASCAR's fault the drivers figured out how to drive faster! NASCAR just sets the rules!Well Brian. You should have figured out years ago that restrictor plates were not a viable long term option.

I imagine next year they will modify their bastard child aka the COT so that the front bumpers don't match up to the rear bumpers and we get something more like the Truck Race.
 
sloggie said:
That article reads like it was written by Brian France Jr's PR machine. It's not NASCAR's fault the drivers figured out how to drive faster! NASCAR just sets the rules!Well Brian. You should have figured out years ago that restrictor plates were not a viable long term option.

I imagine next year they will modify their bastard child aka the COT so that the front bumpers don't match up to the rear bumpers and we get something more like the Truck Race.
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I totally agree sloggie, this Nascars' fault from the get go, they reacted hastily right from the begining when they instituted the plates. Instead of really looking at the problem and solving it, they put a band aid on it in 1987. Since then it has been an aberration, looks like it isn't getting better any time soon either.
 
I will be glad when Daytona is over and real racing begins.

Don't care for tag-team racing.

Nascar has the B.S. pump in good working order.
 
Problem with the article is that I and many other fans don't like the pack racing either. The time has come to take the restrictor plates off the cars, slow them down with a smaller engine, and we will return to the racing of the past at Daytona and Talladega. I watched a replay of the 79 race on ESPN Classic the other day. Now that is way racing should be done on these big tracks. And I'm not talking about the finish. The first half of the race was fantastic with constant lead changes among multiple cars, each utilizing the draft. Watching a car pass without help at Daytona was great and brought back some fond memories. And yes I know times change, but this is one time that change was a bad thing. JMO
 
mickeysimzac said:
Problem with the article is that I and many other fans don't like the pack racing either. The time has come to take the restrictor plates off the cars, slow them down with a smaller engine, and we will return to the racing of the past at Daytona and Talladega. I watched a replay of the 79 race on ESPN Classic the other day. Now that is way racing should be done on these big tracks. And I'm not talking about the finish. The first half of the race was fantastic with constant lead changes among multiple cars, each utilizing the draft. Watching a car pass without help at Daytona was great and brought back some fond memories. And yes I know times change, but this is one time that change was a bad thing. JMO
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Thank you for re-affirming the smaller engine suggestion, I've been saying this for at least 10 years now, why Nascar does not look into this is beyond me.
 
Yeah, Im not sure about this 2 car system either. The most cool thing about it is watching them change positions.
 
I still don't get this smaller engine idea. If you are trying to lower the speeds by running a smaller engine wouldn't you then be limited by the speed at which the engine could run? What's the difference between that and the restrictor plate? If that's the case, how do you have any throttle response? Their foot would be on the floor as it is now with the restrictor plate.

I think the only way it would be possible is if the limitation is the handling of the car and not the engine. That's the way it is at every other non restrictor plate race. Make the car impossible to go through the corners wide open. Daytona and Talladega were built for speed. They just didn't know how much speed at the time. These cars are capable of going way faster than they are currently going and would still stick to the track. Here's a crazy idea..... Narrow the tires down to the point that they don't have as much traction. That will slow them down. They'll learn real quick that they can't run through these turns wide open but yet they have more than enough throttle response to make a pass even with a restrictor plate. Less grip has always produced better racing. That's the field separator between the good and not so good teams.
 
"A realistic look at what restrictor plate racing has become." Seems to me as though it is more "resigned" than "realistic."

There is a lot I wanted to say in reply to the original post but darn; sloggie and MickeySimzac beat me to it. Between the two responses they said almost all that I was ready to say. I remember back when NA__AR mandated the plates for the second time, after Bobby Allison's wreck at Talladega. The word put out then was that they would be a temporary solution, which everyone now seems to forget, or in the case of new fans, never knew in the first place.

The article writer's and NA__AR's attitude of, "Quit complaining. It's what it is and if you don't like it, too bad," is the height of arrogance. It's one of the reason's attendance and the TV number are going downward. Unfortunately for NSA__AR the long time fans aren't as stupid as they apparently think we are. We know good racing when we see it and we aren't seeing much of it this days. Racing was a team sport only insofar as the individual racing teams were concerned. It never was intended to be an on-track team sport.

Those who anxiously are awaiting today's happening (I really hate to call it "racing," I hope you enjoy it. I'll catch the fist 10 laps or so then find something else to do and tune back in about fifteen minutes before the program is scheduled to end. For me the actual season will begin next week and the racing will start then. However, with the playoff format and no real incentive to fight for a win but to only have a "Good points day," my hopes for actual racing next week ain't that bright either.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
I still don't get this smaller engine idea. If you are trying to lower the speeds by running a smaller engine wouldn't you then be limited by the speed at which the engine could run? What's the difference between that and the restrictor plate? If that's the case, how do you have any throttle response? Their foot would be on the floor as it is now with the restrictor plate.

I think the only way it would be possible is if the limitation is the handling of the car and not the engine. That's the way it is at every other non restrictor plate race. Make the car impossible to go through the corners wide open. Daytona and Talladega were built for speed. They just didn't know how much speed at the time. These cars are capable of going way faster than they are currently going and would still stick to the track. Here's a crazy idea..... Narrow the tires down to the point that they don't have as much traction. That will slow them down. They'll learn real quick that they can't run through these turns wide open but yet they have more than enough throttle response to make a pass even with a restrictor plate. Less grip has always produced better racing. That's the field separator between the good and not so good teams.
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Throttle response is: lift off the pedal, car slows down push down on the pedal, you have that response there to accelerate. With a restricted plate engine it takes it a lot longer to get up to speed. A non restricted engine does not , you have that response at the ready, granted with a 500hp engine vs a 750hp engine, the 750hp will have more throttle response with the added hp, but the concept remains the same. So if you put a smaller engine in these cars, with less HP, but non restricted they will have more ability to pull out and pass, lessen the chances that you will have these 2 car teams, and actually create passing like it used to be....sling shotting to the lead, that kind of stuff. Like back in 1979...lol.
 
Mopardh9 said:
Throttle response is: lift off the pedal, car slows down push down on the pedal, you have that response there to accelerate. With a restricted plate engine it takes it a lot longer to get up to speed. A non restricted engine does not , you have that response at the ready, granted with a 500hp engine vs a 750hp engine, the 750hp will have more throttle response with the added hp, but the concept remains the same. So if you put a smaller engine in these cars, with less HP, but non restricted they will have more ability to pull out and pass, lessen the chances that you will have these 2 car teams, and actually create passing like it used to be....sling shotting to the lead, that kind of stuff. Like back in 1979...lol.
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Thanks for the lesson but I don't have a problem understanding what the definition of throttle response is. My question was, how are you possibly left with any throttle to respond with when it's already pushed to the floorboard because of the limitation of the engine. Whether it's restricted by a plate or simply by size?
 
John Galt said:
Those who anxiously are awaiting today's happening (I really hate to call it "racing," I hope you enjoy it. I'll catch the fist 10 laps or so then find something else to do and tune back in about fifteen minutes before the program is scheduled to end. For me the actual season will begin next week and the racing will start then. However, with the playoff format and no real incentive to fight for a win but to only have a "Good points day," my hopes for actual racing next week ain't that bright either.
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This isn't really a good way to start the NASCAR season, is it Bob? Everyone was saying that this is the rebound year, gonna be one of the best seasons we've seen, and right out of the box people are saying they don't care to watch the biggest race. Not a good sign of things to come if you ask me.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Thanks for the lesson but I don't have a problem understanding what the definition of throttle response is. My question was, how are you possibly left with any throttle to respond with when it's already pushed to the floorboard because of the limitation of the engine. Whether it's restricted by a plate or simply by size?
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Think about how the draft used to be. The guy drafting wasn't using 100% throttle. When he pulled out, two things happened. The guy leading would lose a bit, and guy following would have the throttle resonse to actually make something happen. With the plates, that throttle resonse just not there.
 
Jameswnh said:
This isn't really a good way to start the NASCAR season, is it Bob? Everyone was saying that this is the rebound year, gonna be one of the best seasons we've seen, and right out of the box people are saying they don't care to watch the biggest race. Not a good sign of things to come if you ask me.
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Oh, there are lots of folks who will watch it, James. The number of folks who accept this "Team racing" as actual racing is of good size, and since it is a new concept they'll eat it up. That's good for them for it if what they enjoy then more power to them.

However, it's not the type of racing I care for. The fact that they had "X" number of lead changes impresses me not in the least. As I've stated before, lead changes do not a good race make.

What worries me about this race today is the horrendous closing speeds they achieve. To me it's perscription for someone getting badly hurt, either on the track or in the stands.

Nothing will change at either Daytona nor Talladega until they bulldoze about 15 degrees off the banking and make the drivers have to lift going through the turns and then get back on it on the straights. And that just isn't going to happen with NA__AR for it would constitute them admitting to making a mistake and the egos in Daytona Beach are far too fragile for that.
 
VaDirt said:
Think about how the draft used to be. The guy drafting wasn't using 100% throttle. When he pulled out, two things happened. The guy leading would lose a bit, and guy following would have the throttle resonse to actually make something happen. With the plates, that throttle resonse just not there.
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This is still the case but the 2nd car is pushing the front car instead of slingshotting by.

Change happens guys. Roll with it.

People used to use horses for transportation as well.
 
Can't say I dislike it but don't really know if I do. It's still racing and thats fine with me.
I do think if the spoiler was raised maybe an inch for drag to slow them down a bit then they could put a much bigger plate on them to have a shot at pulling out and passing.
Just a thought.
 
VaDirt said:
Think about how the draft used to be. The guy drafting wasn't using 100% throttle. When he pulled out, two things happened. The guy leading would lose a bit, and guy following would have the throttle resonse to actually make something happen. With the plates, that throttle resonse just not there.
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I don't know if you've ever driven a big truck, Va but running with a plate is probably about the same. Most trucking companies govern their engines to between 65-75 MPH. If you going hammer down and pull out to pass you just do not have any throttle and if the guy you're passing is set at 70 and you're at 72 it takes awhile to make the pass.
 
John Galt said:
I don't know if you've ever driven a big truck, Va but running with a plate is probably about the same. Most trucking companies govern their engines to between 65-75 MPH. If you going hammer down and pull out to pass you just do not have any throttle and if the guy you're passing is set at 70 and you're at 72 it takes awhile to make the pass.
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There's a big difference between big tricks that are governed and race cars. And while you may have forgotten, the loss of throttle response that was introduced with the plates was indeed part of the reason the slingshot became a thing of the past.
 
I have to say after watching the race today, I have changed my mind about the 2 car tango. It was a very interesting race. Much better than the pack racing of the past.
 
mickeysimzac said:
I have to say after watching the race today, I have changed my mind about the 2 car tango. It was a very interesting race. Much better than the pack racing of the past.
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Actually I like the pack racing better. Keeps me on the edge of my seat. This 2x2 racing puts me on the edge of dreamland....
 
VaDirt said:
Actually I like the pack racing better. Keeps me on the edge of my seat. This 2x2 racing puts me on the edge of dreamland....
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I just don't see it the way you do. But everyone is entitled to their opinion.
 
John Galt said:
I don't know if you've ever driven a big truck, Va but running with a plate is probably about the same. Most trucking companies govern their engines to between 65-75 MPH. If you going hammer down and pull out to pass you just do not have any throttle and if the guy you're passing is set at 70 and you're at 72 it takes awhile to make the pass.
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But this would ALSO be the case, if you swapped the engine for a V6. That is what some are suggesting here as the fix.

The only way to get back to the old style of drafting and such is for the cars to have too much motor to keep them wide open all the way around the track. This leaves two choices:

1. Take the restrictor plates off and let them run as fast as they can. This may not guaranty that they couldn't figure out a way to keep them wide open anyhow.
2. Make some change to the spoiler, tires of springs to cause the cars to be more unstable.

EITHER of these choices lead back to making the cars less safe for the drivers and fans.

OR they could just leave it like it is.
 
zevious said:
This is still the case but the 2nd car is pushing the front car instead of slingshotting by.

Change happens guys. Roll with it.

People used to use horses for transportation as well.
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Change for the worst, how is this tag team stuff in any way good for this sport?
 
VaDirt said:
There's a big difference between big tricks that are governed and race cars. And while you may have forgotten, the loss of throttle response that was introduced with the plates was indeed part of the reason the slingshot became a thing of the past.
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Seems to me if you were to look up a race from oh say 3 or 4 years ago you would still see the slingshot, they were still able to do this with plates, just not with this package they have now.;)
 
buckaroo said:
Your opinion. I kind of liked what I saw, something different for a change.
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I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you Buckaroo, what I saw yesterday was no better than your typical ARCA race, it had 15 caution in total, 15!!, and the Sprint Cup is suppose to be the top tier of stock car racing, where you have the best of the best. I'm sorry, but yesterday's race looked like amateur hour and I blame the two car racing team for it.
 
My initial thought about the 2-car team racing was that I didn't like it since it would give even more of an advantage to the multi-car teams who could orchestrate the partnering up. I always like the idea that a lesser team (even a one car team) with a Cinderalla story driver could actually win the 500. MY theory was that with the obvious need to team up, that couldn't happen.

I guess THAT theory is shot out the window. :pbjtime:
 
Tony1930 said:
My initial thought about the 2-car team racing was that I didn't like it since it would give even more of an advantage to the multi-car teams who could orchestrate the partnering up. I always like the idea that a lesser team (even a one car team) with a Cinderalla story driver could actually win the 500. MY theory was that with the obvious need to team up, that couldn't happen.

I guess THAT theory is shot out the window. :pbjtime:
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Pretty much luck right there, with out a drafting partner Bayne would not have won that race. Even though I liked seeing him win, it was all chance due to the GWCs and the 2 car tag team stuff. Granted he had a strong car, but had all the other major player been there at the end, I doubt the kid would of won.
 
zevious said:
But this would ALSO be the case, if you swapped the engine for a V6. That is what some are suggesting here as the fix.

The only way to get back to the old style of drafting and such is for the cars to have too much motor to keep them wide open all the way around the track. This leaves two choices:

1. Take the restrictor plates off and let them run as fast as they can. This may not guaranty that they couldn't figure out a way to keep them wide open anyhow.
2. Make some change to the spoiler, tires of springs to cause the cars to be more unstable.

EITHER of these choices lead back to making the cars less safe for the drivers and fans.

OR they could just leave it like it is.
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I didn't see anyone here suggest a V-6, they used to run those back in The Busch series back in the 80s. They sounded like a pack of bees buzzing around the track.
 
Mopardh9 said:
Pretty much luck right there, with out a drafting partner Bayne would not have won that race. Even though I liked seeing him win, it was all chance due to the GWCs and the 2 car tag team stuff. Granted he had a strong car, but had all the other major player been there at the end, I doubt the kid would of won.
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:beerbang: All the major players, Johnson, Earnhardt Jr., Hamlin, Kenseth, etc. were all taken out which led to Bayne winning the 500. Honestly that what I hated most about the race yesterday, all of the major drivers were taken out by wrecks. By the end of it, you had less than half the field on the lead lap and all the drivers who are usually running up front were in the garage because of the horrible racing.
 
Mopardh9 said:
Pretty much luck right there, with out a drafting partner Bayne would not have won that race. Even though I liked seeing him win, it was all chance due to the GWCs and the 2 car tag team stuff. Granted he had a strong car, but had all the other major player been there at the end, I doubt the kid would of won.
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Agreed. Without the carnage to the other contenders it would have been a lot harder if not impossible.

Who knows...maybe Mikey was feeling a bit guilty about letting the kid go and (knowing Trevor was running up front) said to himself "here's one for you kid" (spin, spin, screech, bang, bang, crunch, bang, crunch, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, crunch)
 
Tony1930 said:
Agreed. Without the carnage to the other contenders it would have been a lot harder if not impossible.

Who knows...maybe Mikey was feeling a bit guilty about letting the kid go and (knowing Trevor was running up front) said to himself "here's one for you kid" (spin, spin, screech, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang)
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You think that Mikey was to blame? I really think that was a product of the racing yesterday. Seems to me i don't remember any of the drivers singling out Mikey, in fact, forget which driver it was, said that it wasn't Mikeys' fault.
 
Mopardh9 said:
You think that Mikey was to blame? I really think that was a product of the racing yesterday. Seems to me i don't remember any of the drivers singling out Mikey, in fact, forget which driver it was, said that it wasn't Mikeys' fault.
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Yeah, you are correct about the quote...I think it was the first guy he spun out that said that. The second guy wasn't saying nuthing (since MW is his boss). DW thought Mikey was innocent.

(I was basically joking on the previous post...but MW does seem to manage to be involved in these things a lot)
 
Mopardh9 said:
You think that Mikey was to blame? I really think that was a product of the racing yesterday. Seems to me i don't remember any of the drivers singling out Mikey, in fact, forget which driver it was, said that it wasn't Mikeys' fault.
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Kyle Busch
 
The verdict is still out for me with this two-car draft deal. When plate racing first started, I didn't like it. Then when you saw the tight packs of cars and thrilling finishes, it was thrilling and I looked forward to every plate race. Over time, I've gotten a little tired of it. This deal is different. I don't think it's any worse than the packs of cars. At least this way, the weaker cars couldn't hang on to the draft and were quickly disposed of.
 
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