Buschwha...no wait, Nationwide raiders

buckaroo

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Just read an article at Scene Daily by Jeff Gluck about why are the Cup drivers allowed to race in the Nationwide series. Jeff admits that he is fairly new to the sport, but has always wondered why the lower tiered series allows Cup drivers to participate. This is an old subject and we've gone over it time and time again, but I just wanted to comment that it really wasn't all that long ago that the main challengers were not Cup drivers and a nice rivalry began, though it isn't so much now. Remember when the top driver in the Busch Series was Earnhardt Jr. and his main rival was Matt Kenseth? That was a good rivalry and many of us thought the rivalry would continue and for a while it did. Then Matt won his Cup title and it seems that since that time, that rivalry just wasn't what it was.

As Gluck writes, these days, that sort of rivalry just will never materialize because the top drivers in that series are the top drivers in the Cup series. The rivalries have already been established. Another thing that Gluck writes is that because the Cup drivers now dominate the lower series, those up and coming youngsters are having a hard time getting sponsorship, or even a ride. Last year's ROY hasn't even been in one race this year. Granted, sponsors want a known driver over an unknown, but those unknowns could become known if they were the ones on the track, making names for themselves.

Many of Gluck's readers have commented, and rightly so, that without those big time Cup drivers, the audience would wane, and of course, NASCAR and the media don't want that. But I say that it's a product of what NASCAR has sown. Some of those readers have made differing suggestions as to how to remedy this problem, yet it's clear to me that those who have commented really don't understand it all. Not one of the responders mentioned that the drivers use the Nationwide race to help them on Sunday.

I've said this time and time again that in order to make a sport of any kind popular, it has to be able to be seen and not just by a few, but in a venue that allows the most people to see it. As an argument, I know that if the NFL was only seen by people on a pay-per-view basis or in person, AND if the networks began to show the top high school teams (same top teams each week) play weekly, the popularity of the NFL would begin to wane and the popularity of those high school teams would grow nationally. The same for NASCAR. The Truck series grew somewhat when they were only on Speed, but that audience was very limited and that series has waned in the past couple of years. ESPN has a bigger audience and so the Nationwide Series at least has a larger population in which to garner fans, but it would be even better (for NASCAR to build a bigger fan base) if it were shown on one of the four networks. But of course, NASCAR requires an un-Godly amount of money to telecast their races and with lesser known drivers, it's a must for the networks to have drivers that are known, thus Cuppers. This has now become a Catch 22 situation. :(
 
I read the same article and I did respond. There was also an article regarding viewership down for the TNT Wide-open last weekend and how it sucked since it was so good to see. I also mentioned that some people may not have cable/sat. so they couldn't watch it. It didn't help it was on the 4th of July and it was a major holiday, so not really a good measure for that race.

Actually, Jeff isn't "new to the sport" anymore. He said when he was new to the sport, he wondered why Cup drivers were in it and after so many years of covering racing, he still has the same questions.

They might learn something for the race the following day, but the two cars are different enough that they can't always transfer information which works on Nationwide cars to Cup cars.
 
Yorkie, yes, I did read that, but I figure that anyone newer to the sport than me is still a newbie. To that, I'm a newbie to some of the really oldies. :)

Many years ago, the Busch series used six cylinder engines and because of that, little info was usable to the Cup drivers and so NASCAR would pay and supply cars to some of the Cup drivers to show up and help get an audience. But once NASCAR allowed V8 engines in that series, it changed the whole scene, and once the Cup teams learned that they could learn lots from racing on Saturday, the problem grew, and today, well...
 
I hear ya Buck. I'm still really a newbie to the sport, all considered. That being said, I'm always having to explain things to the hubby because I read EVERYTHING.. and get the scoop and he doesn't do that. LOL
 
I hear ya Buck. I'm still really a newbie to the sport, all considered. That being said, I'm always having to explain things to the hubby because I read EVERYTHING.. and get the scoop and he doesn't do that. LOL

Me too obviously but the brother-in-law; a 30+ year fan; asks me the scoop. He's a multi-sport fan, I'm a single sport fan so I can pay lots more attention.:growl:
 
I'm hardly a new fan; I've followed NASCAR since the late 50's and early 60's. So, from this perspective I have but one question/response. How in the world did the BGN, nee Sportsman Division, ever survive before the Cup Raiders and their raiding teams start competing in the series on a mass basis?

I just don't buy into this NA__AR claim that without the Raiders the series would evaporate.

I admit to having a biased view but, to me, it seems the racing was more popular with race fans prior to the mass invasion.
 
The technology crossover has little to do with it these days. If you were a race promoter, wouldn't you rather have a race with names like Carl Edwards, Dale Earnhardt Jr., Kyle Busch and other 'Cup stars than a field of unknown up & comers? Likewise, if you were a sponsor with dollars to spend would you rather put your name on Tony Stewart's car or Danny O'Quinn Jr.'s?
 
The technology crossover has little to do with it these days. If you were a race promoter, wouldn't you rather have a race with names like Carl Edwards, Dale Earnhardt Jr., Kyle Busch and other 'Cup stars than a field of unknown up & comers? Likewise, if you were a sponsor with dollars to spend would you rather put your name on Tony Stewart's car or Danny O'Quinn Jr.'s?
I don't allow myself the luxury of looking at it from a promoter's perspective; I look at it from MY perspective.

The perspective is that the BGN Series was once a great feeder series for Cup, a place where new drivers and teams learned how to win in a major league setting. For the past few years it seems all they've learned how to do is lose gracefully and quietly to Cup drivers, often using their more experienced Cup pit crew and the Cup technology.

For me, watching most BGN races, especially the races accompanying Cup races, are painful, almost like watching someone bringing a knife to a gun fight. Every so often someone will get a lucky slice in but in the end the bullet trumps the blade 95% of the time.

I can see the rationale for a promoter to want one or two Cup drivers to put driver-fan butts in the seats. I really don't have much of a problem with that. It's been done since the early 80's. But I just think a regular influx of 10-15 Raiders, who are obstensively running for the BGN championship, is wrong on a lot of different levels.

I realize that I'm in the vast minority but I quit following BGN a couple years ago for the very reason apparently people now like it, the preponderance of Cup Raiders. But, that's just me.
 
Na$car opened Pandora's box by allowing cup drivers to run the Busch series.
At first it was just companion races and just a few cup drivers. Reason? To boast attendance and give us the chance to see more of our cup favorites run. Then it spread like poison ivy.
No small nnw team can compete with the likes, and resources, of Gibbs, Hendricks, Childress etc.
When was the last time a nnw regular won the championship? Or even a race?
 
Year
Winner
Points Margin
Runner-up


2007
Carl Edwards
678
David Reutimann

2006
Kevin Harvick
824
Carl Edwards

2005
Martin Truex, Jr.
68
Clint Bowyer

2004
Martin Truex Jr.
230
Kyle Busch


2003
Brian Vickers
14
David Green

2002
Greg Biffle
264
Jason Kellar

2001
Kevin Harvick
124
Jeff Green

2000
Jeff Green
616
Jason Keller

1999
Dale Earnhardt Jr.
280
Jeff Green

1998
Dale Earnhardt Jr.
48
Matt Kenseth

1997
Randy LaJoie
266
Todd Bodine

1996
Randy LaJoie
29
David Green

1995
Johnny Benson
404
Chad Little

1994
David Green
46
Ricky Craven

1993
Steve Grissom
253
Ricky Craven

1992
Joe Nemechek
3
Bobby Labonte

1991
Bobby Labonte
74
Kenny Wallace

1990
Chuck Bown
200
Jimmy Hensley

1989
Rob Moroso
55
Tommy Houston

1988
Tommy Ellis
239
Rob Moroso

1987
Larry Pearson
382
Jimmy Hensley

1986
Larry Pearson
20
Brett Bodine

1985
Jack Ingram
29
Jimmy Hensley

1984
Sam Ard
426
Jack Ingram

1983
Sam Ard
87
Jack Ingram
 
Year
Winner
Runner-up
Primary NASCAR affiliation in parenthesis
2008
Carl Edwards (Cup Regular - 2004)
Kyle Busch (Cup Regular - 2005)


2007
Carl Edwards (Cup Regular - 2004)
David Reutimann (Cup Regular - 2007)

2006
Kevin Harvick (Cup Regular - 2001)
Carl Edwards (Cup Regular - 2004)

2005
Martin Truex, Jr. (BGN Regular)
Clint Bowyer (BGN Regular)

2004
Martin Truex Jr. (BGN Regular)
Kyle Busch (BGN Regular)

2003
Brian Vickers (BGN Regular)
David Green (BGN Regular)

2002
Greg Biffle (BGN Regular)
Jason Kellar (BGN Regular)

2001
Kevin Harvick (Cup regular - 2001)
Jeff Green (BGN Regular)

2000
Jeff Green (BGN Regular)
Jason Keller (BGN Regular)

It's been basically an All Cup show since 2006.
 
Na$car opened Pandora's box by allowing cup drivers to run the Busch series.
At first it was just companion races and just a few cup drivers. Reason? To boast attendance and give us the chance to see more of our cup favorites run. Then it spread like poison ivy.
No small nnw team can compete with the likes, and resources, of Gibbs, Hendricks, Childress etc.
When was the last time a nnw regular won the championship? Or even a race?

Mike Bliss won the rain shortened Charlotte race.

Brad Keselowski won at Dover, but he doesn't count since he races for Hendrick and competes in half the Cup races.

If you banned the Cup drivers, Brad Keselowski (who basically is a Cup driver) and Jason Leffler would win every race... it wouldn't be any different than now because Keselowski already has a Cup ride and Leffler failed twice in Cup.
 
Mike Bliss won the rain shortened Charlotte race.

Brad Keselowski won at Dover, but he doesn't count since he races for Hendrick and competes in half the Cup races.

If you banned the Cup drivers, Brad Keselowski (who basically is a Cup driver) and Jason Leffler would win every race... it wouldn't be any different than now because Keselowski already has a Cup ride and Leffler failed twice in Cup.

We're not talking races Andy but Championships:growl:
 
We're not talking races Andy but Championships:growl:
I'll talk races.

If between 25%-33% of all accompanying races fields weren't Cup Raider teams and/or drivers there would very likely be a larger number of entries. I believe this would be because the field would not be slanted so sharply toward the Cup teams and Cup close affiliations. Without the close affiliations I don't think you'd see the domination you predict.

Sure, you would have dominant teams but that's sports for you.

But every accompanying BGN race you have multiple smaller teams and relatively unknown drivers who get sent home because they fail to make the field due to the disparity between the Cup-affiliated teams and drivers and themselves. They just can't hope to compete. These are teams who, if given a chance could one day become viable BGN teams and maybe even, down the road, aspire to Cupdom? But, like flowers in an untended garden, they are overtaken by weeds and choked to death without ever being afforded to opportunity to bloom. The Cup Raiders come in and take valuable starting spots and what meager prize money there is.

Jason Leffler was mentioned as being a potential dominant force... Jason is being yanked out of his ride for a number of races next season because the sponsor wants a big name Cup raider in the seat for visibility. <Poof!> Just like that. If you check situations like that happen on a fairly regular basis.

Just maybe, IF there were some some of limit on Cup Raiders, maybe some of the BGN sponsors would come to Cup and support some of the failing teams? This might leave the door open for smaller sponsorship in BGN which might lower the cost racing in the series which might lead to new teams and drivers which might lead to new future stars in Cup. Stars without a "rabbi" like Mark Martin who tells the media, "This kid's the real deal!" about the time the kid is potty trained.

The way I personally see it is that NA__AR exhibited typical 21st Century thinking when it encouraged the Cup Raiding. It "might" put a few more driver-type fan's butts in some seats (but really not that many) but what does it do for the long term future? Hendrick, Roush and Childress aren't going to be around forever. Who is going to replace them, successful team owners?

Bottom line is I just don't see any fairness in the current system. Don't get me wrong. I don't buy into a Pollyanna vision of everyone BGN being "equal." Ain't ever going to happen in life, let alone racing. But, I would like to see everyone have a more-or-less equal chance at success, what they do with their chance is their responsibility. Right now in BGN, that theory is strictly a myth, thanks to the Cup Raiding.

But this is just one race fan's opinion and what do I know, anyway?
 
"The way I personally see it is that NA__AR exhibited typical 21st Century thinking when it encouraged the Cup Raiding. It "might" put a few more driver-type fan's butts in some seats (but really not that many) but what does it do for the long term future? Hendrick, Roush and Childress aren't going to be around forever. Who is going to replace them, successful team owners?"


Thats a very good question. I agree 100 percent.
 
Hendrick, Roush and Childress aren't going to be around forever. Who is going to replace them, successful team owners?"
the same people that replaced petty, johnson, the wood brothers, etc.... stewart, waltrip, harvick, earnhardt....
 
The 'Cup team owners are watching the Nationwide series for talent. They may not win championships or a lot of races, but the younger drivers are getting noticed. Tony Stewart and Jimmie Johnson weren't very successful in the then Busch series, but look at them now.
 
the same people that replaced petty, johnson, the wood brothers, etc.... stewart, waltrip, harvick, earnhardt....

Petty was bought out almost lock, stock and barrel by a man who had only marginal interest in racing.

While Junior and the Wood Brothers were uber successful operations but weren't on a par with the current mega teams, even on an inflation basis.

Junior sold his team to Brett Bodine and another former driver whose name escapes me at the moment. The Wood Brothers are still operating independently, albeit at a lesser level but one resembling their involvement in their hey day.

The problem as I see it, is that without a large measure of success in BGN a team owner there has a very small chance of drawing the attention of a Cup-level sponsor. Competing against the Cup raiders sure isn't going to help their success record. The days of a team owner moving up to Cup with a very good driver, good equipment and a lot of guts are gone. True, some don't see that as a minus. I do.

It was also mentioned that the Cup teams are looking at BGN talent. That's all well and good BUT... How many good drivers, in equipment not capable of running with the Raiders but could compete adequately with the other BGN regular teams, miss the show each week because some guber from the Cup ranks with a Cup-equivalent team/car, comes down and scarves up the valuable seat time and exposure the unknown driver could sorely use?

For my view the entire concept of mass invasion by Cup Raiders just plain stinks. But that's just me and we can agree to disagree. It's merely an opinion and opinions are never wrong to the person holding them.
 
It was also mentioned that the Cup teams are looking at BGN talent.
Another point to my argument is to look at the current lineup of Cup drivers. How many of them came up through the lower series? While there are some, there are others who didn't and that shows that the big teams are looking at all racing series. And, the current trend is to get younger and younger drivers.
 
ya know, there have always been drivers douoble dippin..... the thing is, 10, 20 years ago, it was usually a handfull of guys like Earnhardt, Waltrip, Gant, Bodine, etc that was there with there own equipment, and the like of Ard, Ingram, Ellis, and the likes could give as good as they got. and I think it was good for the sport. We got to get a taste of what these drivers could do, while at the same time, for less money, fans got to see a few big name drivers. The problem came in a few years ago when drivers that really weren't that good in Cup were in the Busch races..... nextg thing ya know, the Roush's, Hendricks, Gibbs and etc are all over the sport..... Same thing in the local series and ARCA. I'm sorry but if I put "next hot thing" in a HMS car and ship him out to Salem to run a race, there should be no surprise if he wins....... he has millions backin him. Look at the race a few weeks ago, Bush and Edwards show up as nearly the only Cuppers there, start at the back, and with in the first 50 miles they are running 1-2 and lapping the field. This week the top qualified Busch (NATIONWIDE) driver qual 7th, and he was a start and park????? It's easy to win like that. I bet if ya put any of several drivers in the 60 car and sent them to a non companion event, they would at least place top 10 or top 5..... then the media would be like " oh here is the real deal...... he's a rsing super star......then go to Cup and fail miserably..... just look at the long list of drivers in the last couple of years that have been highly touted, and under achievin......
Give the NWS back to the grass roots guys. Run the local bull rings with occasional support cup weekends. Let these guys make a name for themselves there, then vie for a Cup ride. Dont give them super cars, and kick underfunded teams teeth down their throats, and tell us how great these guys are.........
Personally, everyone is afraid if the Cuppers dont show, then you will have pitiful fields.... I think just the opposite is true..... If a team knows they can show up and race, and be on at least close to even playing field, more teams would be there, and more drivers would wanna show what they got.
 
ya know, there have always been drivers douoble dippin..... the thing is, 10, 20 years ago, it was usually a handfull of guys like Earnhardt, Waltrip, Gant, Bodine, etc that was there with there own equipment, and the like of Ard, Ingram, Ellis, and the likes could give as good as they got. and I think it was good for the sport. We got to get a taste of what these drivers could do, while at the same time, for less money, fans got to see a few big name drivers. The problem came in a few years ago when drivers that really weren't that good in Cup were in the Busch races..... nextg thing ya know, the Roush's, Hendricks, Gibbs and etc are all over the sport..... Same thing in the local series and ARCA. I'm sorry but if I put "next hot thing" in a HMS car and ship him out to Salem to run a race, there should be no surprise if he wins....... he has millions backin him. Look at the race a few weeks ago, Bush and Edwards show up as nearly the only Cuppers there, start at the back, and with in the first 50 miles they are running 1-2 and lapping the field. This week the top qualified Busch (NATIONWIDE) driver qual 7th, and he was a start and park????? It's easy to win like that. I bet if ya put any of several drivers in the 60 car and sent them to a non companion event, they would at least place top 10 or top 5..... then the media would be like " oh here is the real deal...... he's a rsing super star......then go to Cup and fail miserably..... just look at the long list of drivers in the last couple of years that have been highly touted, and under achievin......
Give the NWS back to the grass roots guys. Run the local bull rings with occasional support cup weekends. Let these guys make a name for themselves there, then vie for a Cup ride. Dont give them super cars, and kick underfunded teams teeth down their throats, and tell us how great these guys are.........
Personally, everyone is afraid if the Cuppers dont show, then you will have pitiful fields.... I think just the opposite is true..... If a team knows they can show up and race, and be on at least close to even playing field, more teams would be there, and more drivers would wanna show what they got.
I basically agree BUT it'll never happen. The "Brain Trust" ("Brain used in its loosest context) at NA__AR HQ in Daytona Beach has allowed this thing to grow and fester, looking at the short term gain and discounting the long term effects, while at the same time pandering to the new Driver Fan while discounting the long time Race Fan. Now the toothpaste is out of the tube and I don't see any realistic way to get it back in.

BGN has become Cup Lite and just like the current blatantly biased and inequitable Welfare for Mega Teams (a.k.a. Chosen 35, or Top 35 in Owner Points) Rule, we're stuck with it. It's a brave new world we've got.
 
The 'Cup team owners are watching the Nationwide series for talent. They may not win championships or a lot of races, but the younger drivers are getting noticed. Tony Stewart and Jimmie Johnson weren't very successful in the then Busch series, but look at them now.
Different time, different series. :rolleyes:

The only driver to come out of Nationwide in to Cup to win a race recently was Brad Keselowski and that was on sheer dumb luck (that's all restrictor plate racing is).

Joey Logano doesn't count because he was already guaranteed a Cup ride before he went in to Nationwide.

Where's Stephen Leicht? Brad Coleman? Kelly Bires?

The drivers that are getting noticed are getting noticed in ARCA or the Camping World Series or Grand-Am.:rolleyes:
 
ya know, there have always been drivers douoble dippin..... the thing is, 10, 20 years ago, it was usually a handfull of guys like Earnhardt, Waltrip, Gant, Bodine, etc that was there with there own equipment, and the like of Ard, Ingram, Ellis, and the likes could give as good as they got. and I think it was good for the sport. We got to get a taste of what these drivers could do, while at the same time, for less money, fans got to see a few big name drivers. The problem came in a few years ago when drivers that really weren't that good in Cup were in the Busch races..... nextg thing ya know, the Roush's, Hendricks, Gibbs and etc are all over the sport..... Same thing in the local series and ARCA. I'm sorry but if I put "next hot thing" in a HMS car and ship him out to Salem to run a race, there should be no surprise if he wins....... he has millions backin him. Look at the race a few weeks ago, Bush and Edwards show up as nearly the only Cuppers there, start at the back, and with in the first 50 miles they are running 1-2 and lapping the field. This week the top qualified Busch (NATIONWIDE) driver qual 7th, and he was a start and park????? It's easy to win like that. I bet if ya put any of several drivers in the 60 car and sent them to a non companion event, they would at least place top 10 or top 5..... then the media would be like " oh here is the real deal...... he's a rsing super star......then go to Cup and fail miserably..... just look at the long list of drivers in the last couple of years that have been highly touted, and under achievin......
Give the NWS back to the grass roots guys. Run the local bull rings with occasional support cup weekends. Let these guys make a name for themselves there, then vie for a Cup ride. Dont give them super cars, and kick underfunded teams teeth down their throats, and tell us how great these guys are.........
Personally, everyone is afraid if the Cuppers dont show, then you will have pitiful fields.... I think just the opposite is true..... If a team knows they can show up and race, and be on at least close to even playing field, more teams would be there, and more drivers would wanna show what they got.

:beerbang::beerbang::beerbang::beerbang:
 
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