COT year 1

D

Digger

Guest
I know the season ain't over yet but how would you rate the Car of Tomorrow?

I say 6. It made a lot of races I'd normally turn off rather interesting. Pocono was fantastic both races with this COT.

And it's made the always fantastic road course races that much better. Plus the slingshot's back at the restrictor plate tracks.

The negatives - it doesn't perform on the big tracks. It's almost like the tracks have to not only have banking but progressive banking in order for the car to be any good on it. It's been alright at Phoenix and Dover and Richmond and I think Homestead will be exciting. But Texas, Atlanta, Chicago, Charlotte in the fall, Loudon, Michigan and the like have been real snoozefests. And let's not even talk about Indianapolis.:rolleyes:
 
Loudon was a snoozefest with the old car too. That's more about that track.

The big unknown coming into this season was how it would perform on the 1.5-mile and 2-mile tracks. Except for the Coke 600, where they spent 3 days testing two weeks before the race, those races have been bad. Atlanta is probably one of the raciest tracks on the circuit. The first race was plaqued with tire issues, yesterday's was just not good.

The thing I find interesting is these cars pushed like dump truck during the first half of the season and they are very loose in the second half. Teams haven't found the middle ground with these cars yet. If they do, the racing might improve.

In ABC showing the replay of the '05 Atlanta finish several times, it's odd to see the old car now. Even compare it to pics of cars from the early and mid 90's. NASCAR allowed those cars to get so out of line.
 
I think if Goodyear went and did their homework and NASCAR disallowed bumpstops and allowed more cooler openings in the front grille, things would be a little better.
 
As to the front grill I've often wondered why they didn't put in a mechanical louver system that could be opened and closed from the ****pit as the need arose. Much the same as they are able to change the brake bias between the front and back.

Doing away with the bumpstops would force the teams to do something about the car rolling over in the corners, with a larger spring or such, which would save the tires, perhaps.

And, if everyone had to play by the same rules then maybe we'd have some side by side.
 
The car is still too new for teams to have hit the sweet spot.

Plus, the dynamics of the car have played havoc with the load on the tires, and have thrown Goodyear for a loop.

Give it another off season, and another year of tinkering, and then we'll see.
 
Anything that requires a 2-1/2" sway bar to combat body roll is not a very well designed vehicle from a handling standpoint.
Handling and driveability the I'd rate the car a 2.
From a safety standpoint a 10+, with the horrible wrecks we've seen this year I think that the car, safety-wise has proven itself.
 
The thing that aggravates me about this car is the fact the dreaded "clean air" aspect is still a problem. NASCAR wanted to get away from aero dependant cars, but they still have that problem with this car.
 
COT, car of yesterday and so on. It's what we have and if we are going to continue to be fans, we have to accept what they put on the track for us to watch. Otherwise we'll be watching something like ARCA! :eek: (Actually, I love ARCA but this is just a dig on Andy).

I long for the days of the 80's, when the cars looked like those on the showroom floor. Yeah, the newer cars are much safer now, but there will always be a risk of death in this things and all the drivers know it. The real problem is technology and there isn't anything that can be done about that. But with the way they are now, all the cars being pretty much equal, the only way to gain a small advantage is through very expensive testing to see what minute setting can be changed to make that gain. Today's shops are nothing like they were back in the old days. Then backyard mechanics could and did build cars and race them. Some with success and some without. Now, there isn't a backyard mechanic that could even build one of those vehicles. Hell, they have to buy the templates that enable them to build the right car, and then that's just the body. Oh well, y'all know what I'm talking about. And aero? It's been the same for many years now and the COT hasn't changed that at all. But one thing has happened since the good old days and that is now instead of three or four cars capable of winning, there are more like 20 or so that can find the checkered flag first. At least that's better.
 
Article From Insider Racing News on COT (POS)

By Larry Van Zandt
Oct. 15 2008


As I have said in the past, I think the COT is a disaster. The COT is essentially NASCAR management telling the team owners (and car builders working for those teams), telling them how to do their job in building the cars. From a safety standpoint, I couldn't agree more, however, I am not entirely buying the 'safety' argument that keeps being relayed, ad-nauseum, by those in charge.

Why?

Part of the COT's new design might have been enhanced safety for the drivers, and I like what has been done to increase the crush zones of the door areas on both sides of the car. After seeing Travis Kvapil trying to color outside of the lines with a hard hit into the SAFER barrier last night, during the Bank Of America 500 Points Down In The Stock Market, at Lowe's Motor Speedway, I am seriously impressed with the kind of hit these cars can take, and still allow drivers to at least stumble away, like watching a tipsy librarian trying to walk home after Prom night.

Of course, it doesn't do anything to reduce the immediate stress level increase a driver gets after the realization that he is about to follow Spock's advice, and become 'one' with the wall, although some teams are working on eliminating the stress of seeing the wall coming towards you at an unfriendly rate of speed; just look at the #45 Petty Racing Dodge, for example.

They are so concerned about drivers not encountering any stress during impending doom, that they have installed an experimental automatic hood-opening device that pops the hood up in case the car goes towards the wall at speeds over 100 mph, in order to block the driver's view of the accident, ensuring that the driver will remain calm instead of stressing out over something as silly as 'hitting the wall'.

We got to see it in action at Charlotte last night, although it appears there was a malfunction, as the #45 Sprint (or whoever is sponsoring that car this week) Dodge was sent out onto the race track with the hood up and back onto the windshield...and it didn't appear that it was in any danger of hitting the wall at the time. Or, it may be entirely possible that Petty Racing thought that the #45 was having too easy of a race to run, and were in too much danger of finishing in the top 43, so they thought that they needed to do something to prevent a higher finish in the final results.

As it is, the pesky driver, Chad McCumbree, finished in 35th place anyway, never mind that his crew chief, during later pit stops, also pulled other pranks to slow the driver down, such as putting itching powder down in his uniform, sending old ladies with walkers out in front of the car while Chad was trying to exit the pits, putting baseball cards in the wheel spokes, repeatedly telling him over the radio that a large bee flew into the car, and when none of that worked, during the last pit stop of the race, they went for it and casually sneaked a rabid badger into the car with him from the passenger side window, as they changed the tires on the driver's side.

After all of that, he still had to contend with a last lap drive for his life, with the spear-throwing, arrow-shooting, and dart-blowing Hovitos from the movie 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' were following him around the track in the back of a NASCAR Craftsman race truck driven by some French guy, the angry Hovitos trying to shoot out his tires with flaming arrows, darts, and spears, after the crew chief, seeing none of his plans working to slow Chad down, made a frantic phone call to Steven Spielberg with 5 laps to go...

Whoops....back to the COT disaster....

The reason why I don't buy the entire 'safety' argument of the COT? NASCAR has stepped on its own foot in sooo many different directions with this car...and I shall count the ways:

1. Deliberately building a car that is such an aerodynamic disaster, that it can only run in tight packs of 43 cars on certain high-speed tracks? The last time I checked, that wasn't the safest way to run a race, with forty-three 3500-pound cars all traveling at 190 mph, only inches apart. Gee, one would think that they were trying to cause more accidents.

Think of it this way: If you assembled 43 drunken grandmothers in wheelchairs, tied them all together with lengths of rope in order for them to stay bunched together (in the interest of 'parity'), placed them all on a 15-mile-long downhill road with a 30-percent grade, and then pushed them to get going, how many wheelchairs are going to be wiped out if one crashes? I don't know, but I do know that the resulting chaos would definitely generate more ratings...but if I made the wheelchairs safer, then what? If you are increasing the chance of accidents during the race, then how in the world is this a safer race car for the driver?

2. These cars were deliberately built to keep them closer together on tracks. If one worries more about the 'show' than enhancing the racing, the COT is exactly the car you are looking for.

3. If enhancing 'parity' was a strong concern in the design of the COT, in making sure everyone got the same car, how is it that the same few teams are still dominating every event? Because no matter how much you try to ensure that nobody dominates, or gets too far ahead, somebody is going to work harder AND smarter than the other guys.

If NASCAR insists on its paranoid quest for 'parity' they might as well just adopt the IROC series way of running things, and just toss the drivers out into 43 cars all built by the same shop. Oh, wait, IROC didn't work out too well, did it? Well, they might improve on the IROC model, by adding flaming rings to jump their cars through, or making machine gun pits where drivers have to duck live machine gun fire whizzing through the windows, all while doing 190 mph on the backstretch of Daytona....yep, that would make IROC interesting again....at least until the conspiracy theorists begin to circulate rumors that the Roush drivers all have to duck lower in the cars than everyone else...

4. Parity again raises its ugly head....if I hear the term 'clean air' ever again, I am going to toss my cookies at the TV screen. This is yet another failure of the COT, the fact that if someone gets into the lead...it's almost impossible to pass the guy. These cars have soooo little downforce, that the moment someone gets behind another car, what little downforce assistance they were getting in the corners disappears completely, the cars slide up the track...and then whoever is in the lead continues to stay in the lead, at least until a pit stop. So much for the 'parity' argument, again. COT = fail.

5. I am getting a bit off-topic with this one, but it includes NASCAR, and it's the subject of tires.

In NHRA Drag Racing, if you follow that series at all and have noticed the tire failures of the last few years, officially, there wasn't a rear tire problem with NHRA Top Fuel dragsters. Unoffically, if you listened to some of the drivers who dared to speak, the cars were simply too fast for the tires, and too much downforce was allowed to be generated by the huge rear wings they use, with some of the numbers generated showing somwhere north of 7500 pounds of rear downforce at the end of the 1/4 mile, squarely onto the rear tires.

This was being generated on tires that were only designed to go 300 mph, yet these cars were going 330+, with the hideous amount of downforce. The problem here? If you listened to the drivers, they were overloading the tires, and the tires simply couldn't handle the loads, therefore they were blowing out. A blowout isn't a fun thing at 190 mph, and it's certainly not a walk in the park to have one at 330 mph. However, after the death of driver Scott Kalitta, NHRA has finally slowed the cars down, by reducing the top-fuel class track length to 1000 feet, instead of 1320 feet.

It appears to have worked, as engine explosions have almost entirely ceased, and tire explosions have stopped for the most part. I apologize for mentioning the other race series, but there is an interesting parallel between the NHRA and NASCAR, on the subject of tires.

After watching almost a full season with the COT, and the tire disasters that have popped up, race after race, I am convinced that either Michelin or Firestone need to give NASCAR a call, or Goodyear needs to bow out in protest, for the following reason; Either Goodyear is dropping the ball, by producing crappy, inconsistent tires, or the COT, being the aero disaster that it is, is simply too much car for the tire being mandated by NASCAR.

I think both parties are a bit guilty here, as the tire inconsistency problems have plagued NASCAR as far back as I can remember, well before the COT was even a gleam in the eye of NASCAR. If you have a car that nothing is changed on during a pit stop, and the car goes from being the envy of the field to becoming a backmarker in less than 20 seconds, with this happening race, after race, after race....there is definitely a problem here.

Where does the COT come in?

With the reduced downforce, and horsepower 'creep' (engine horsepower slightly increases year to year, as we are now well over 800 HP on the non-restrictor-plate tracks), these 3500-pound behemoths can no longer generate the same corner speeds as the pre-COT cars, and any attempt to do so causes the cars to slide up the track, and shred the tire tread with the track surface cheese grater.

I am convinced that this is what happened at the Brickyard 400 this year, as tires were not lasting longer than 10 or so laps, before being ground down to the cords, blowing out, and sending the cars into the wall. This lack of downforce makes the teams go to drastic measures with negative camber or excessive air pressure, and we get blowout after blowout. Concerning Dale Jr's blowout last night at Lowe's Motor Speedway?

From my experience with race cars in general, a small puncture wound, like the track reporter so graciously showed the audience ("Goodyear says THIS caused the flat!") with the destroyed tire from the #88 Amp Energy Drink Chevrolet, does not cause a giant 'bang' and blow half of the fender off, when the tire begins to lose air from that small of a hole. It simply loses air, in a somewhat controlled manner, and goes flat rather quickly, but not in an explosive manner. So, my dear Watson, is it the tires, or the car? Or was it the one-armed man?

Find out in next week's action-packed episode of 'As the Sunoco Burns'....

Well, enough with the COT rants. I just hope the drivers develop a spine someday, and refuse to drive until NASCAR yanks this heap off of the track, and replaces it with something resembling a Mustang, Camaro, or Challenger.Whatever car is used, give it downforce, a 4-liter V8, along with a 500-pound diet, and let a car dominate for a change. Socialism belongs in Politics 101, not NASCAR.
 
The thing that aggravates me about this car is the fact the dreaded "clean air" aspect is still a problem. NASCAR wanted to get away from aero dependant cars, but they still have that problem with this car.
I remember the clean air thing was a huge problem earlier in the decade, but it really ceased in past years (2004, 2005, 2006). Now, the problem is back and worse than it's been in a while. It's hard to pass because this heavy clunker pushes when it gets into dirty air and the end result is the trainraces we've seen this season.
 
COT, car of yesterday and so on. It's what we have and if we are going to continue to be fans, we have to accept what they put on the track for us to watch. Otherwise we'll be watching something like ARCA! :eek: (Actually, I love ARCA but this is just a dig on Andy).
ARCA's going to implement the COT in 2010 (2011 at the latest).

I really hope they don't, but it's imminent. Hopefully, by then, NA$CAR will have this thing figured out.
 
I agree that the racing leaves something to be desired at times with the new car, but after Michael McDowells crash at Texas qualifying I am sold on this car. I don't think he would have survived that in the old car. That fact alone has made enough of a difference for me. I think they can solve the problems with this new car by eliminating bump stops, wider tires, lowering the center of gravity, or any combination of these things. The car will provide good racing if NASCAR allows teams to experiment a bit. Open up the box a little and let crew chiefs work a little magic. I think that they need to keep the bodies in check though so that the cars don't turn into the crab looking creations that the old car turned into.
 
I agree that the racing leaves something to be desired at times with the new car, but after Michael McDowells crash at Texas qualifying I am sold on this car. I don't think he would have survived that in the old car. That fact alone has made enough of a difference for me. I think they can solve the problems with this new car by eliminating bump stops, wider tires, lowering the center of gravity, or any combination of these things. The car will provide good racing if NASCAR allows teams to experiment a bit. Open up the box a little and let crew chiefs work a little magic. I think that they need to keep the bodies in check though so that the cars don't turn into the crab looking creations that the old car turned into.

Agreed. The safety aspect of this car is amazing, but the problem is that even with the current tire situation, which was not present with the previous car, NASCAR has chosen to wait out the season until they attempt to remedy the COT/tire/handling problem. Not only is it a problem for the teams with regard to INCREASED per-car spending (in an attempt to find a legal solution) but the fans are also suffering by attending/watching less than exciting stock car racing. The COT was supposed to lessen the costs for fielding a Cup car and level the playing field, thus providing a more economic approach to competitive, exciting racing. NASCAR, so far has stepped on their own................elbows.
I understand that extreme changes sometimes require a lot of adjustments but NASCAR has chosen to wait out the season as opposed to attempting to address the current problems at hand.
I hope NASCAR sees that not only do changes need to be made to their beloved COT but also to the Chase format. The recent changes that NASCAR has made to Cup racing have been directly reflected by lack of attendance as well as a considerable drop in TV viewer ratings. I realize that the current economy is partly to blame for a small percentage of the decreased attendance but the opinions expressed by drivers, fans, here on this forum, as well as in the media are clearly a result of overall disappointment with the sport.
Changes need to be made to the COT and the Chase format.
 
make bumpstops illegial

make the tires 2 inches wider (from 10.5 to 12.5 i believe?)

Reduce minimum weight by 100 pounds

Set min and maximum left/right weight distribution ratios (either side can't be less than 45% or more than 55% of total car weight) (decreases weight transfer and body/weight roll)

Allow one more brake duct per corner

require 2 batteries

A car must re-pass template inspection if any body panels come off the car after an accident

Re-shape the splitter and/or nose so that the splitter does not exceed the dimensions of the nose
 
I'm all for the safety upgrades, but they need to incorporate those into a car which can run decently without a minor adjustment totally throwing it out of whack, a car which can PASS on the track more easily, not just on pit row, a car which isn't such a tank it's killing the tires, etc. They need to listen to DW and what he says in the booth with his comments on what the car needs and what the drivers and fans are saying. Let's face it, for the most part, the racing has been a snooze with this new car. The teams are stuck into such a tight box, there's very little they can do to make them better. I know the economy is bad, but the obvious lack of fans in the stands and those turning to football because the races are a snooze, should get NASCAR's attention and encourage them to work with some engineers/teams to make improvements. France (NASCAR) is just too darn stubborn to admit there is something lacking and they just may have been wrong about something. I renewed my tickets for next year even though I wasn't going to - mainly because I have a 4-day window to call in and upgrade or move my seats if I want and I'm not sure if I want to keep the seats we had, but this is the first year I'm in a position to do that. I'd much rather have my parents back than have the money I have to use for things such as tickets, but there's a heck of a lot of other people who are in the position I've been in most of the time where I don't have the luxury of spending that much money.

My husband is constantly expressing how much he misses the cars looking like REAL cars like they used to. Now I think you can just interchange the names on the front of the car and no one will know the difference. It's not like we're seeing the engines inside the cars.

So for safety, I give the car an A. For racing, I give the car a D or worse at times.
 
MH,
I agree with no more bump stop.

Adding 2" more inches of tire width would be a nightmare. In which direction would the added width go? Outboard you'd need to change the physical size of the car, can't have the tire outside of the sheetmetal. Inboard you'd face even more brake heat and melting beads issues. You'd need to change rim dimesions too to handle the added width and what about backspacing? Taller yes, but that's going to cause it's own set of problems. Wider I don't see.

They already have weight requirements which I believe is very close to your 55/45.

More brake ducts, yes.

Dropping minimum weight 100 pounds and adding a second battery, which some teams do carry now is doable.

A template inspection while the race continues? Might as well put it on the trailer for the time it'll take.

Eliminate the splitter and wing, go back to the valance and spoiler.

Just my opinion.
 
MH,
I agree with no more bump stop.

Adding 2" more inches of tire width would be a nightmare. In which direction would the added width go? Outboard you'd need to change the physical size of the car, can't have the tire outside of the sheetmetal. Inboard you'd face even more brake heat and melting beads issues. You'd need to change rim dimesions too to handle the added width and what about backspacing? Taller yes, but that's going to cause it's own set of problems. Wider I don't see.

They already have weight requirements which I believe is very close to your 55/45.

More brake ducts, yes.

Dropping minimum weight 100 pounds and adding a second battery, which some teams do carry now is doable.

A template inspection while the race continues? Might as well put it on the trailer for the time it'll take.

Eliminate the splitter and wing, go back to the valance and spoiler.

Just my opinion.
On tires, combination all of the above. Having it wider reduces contact pressure- less contact pressure = less heat = less pressure built during a run (requires limiting camber, as the CC's would likely crank it to make more heat). Maybe not the full 2", but whatever can be safely achieved with a combination of backspacing and re-shaping the inner fenders. Height would make the tire rotate slower, less centrifical forces.

Adding one more brake duct (NASCAR limits them apparently) would allow more inner bead and caliper cooling

Dropping minimum weight by 100 pounds is 100 pounds that likely won't be transferred at that high CG to the right side tires. Second battery would place more static right side load on the car, as well and lower the CG just barely bu having that extra 40 pounds or however much down low at axle height.

Wouldn't have to be a complete template inspection- just to make sure whatever panels a blown tire rips off, are replaced back where they're supposed to be *cough* 55 car *cough*
 
Im still a fan of the wedge cars. Yes they were getting out of control with body shape, but atleast they were still race cars that could be worked on and modified a little bit.

It just seems like the COT was designed with things like Weight Percentages (Left, Rear, Cross) as very low priority. I realize this car was about safety, but without being able to find what a car needs for its weight distribution its hard to make the cars drive better that would lead to better side by side racing. Like others have stated they need to open up some of this and let the real experts that have slept under racecars for years like chad knaus work out this rubik's cube of a race car. jmo
 
It's funny how the old cars provided some of the best racing back in the mid to late 90's. They didn't have the bodies all skewed, spoilers out to the side, etc, and they still somewhat resembled the cars they were derived from. They didn't make as much downforce, slid around a lot, but still could race side by side. I think that's what NASCAR was going for with the COT. But, they ended up with a car that was too tall and too heavy. I still dont understand the splitter and the wing. Did they do any research at all? Heavy, tall, and boxy will rip right side tires to shreads. I thought this would be obvious, but I guess not.
 
brewer just said the tires are 10.5 inches wide and 88 inches circumference (28 diameter). No wonder the tires cant keep up with the new car. Height is good, but still too narrow...I still say needs to be closer to 12 or 12.5.
 
Everham said on one of the shows recently that the tire needs to be taller.
We've got 2 good CC who can't agree.:confused:

I still don't know where they'll get clearance for a additional 2" of tire width or even 1" unless they allow major body changes.
 
nascar has the mods on 15 inch tires.....lol it would be crazy lookin, but if it helps it helps lol
 
nascar has the mods on 15 inch tires.....lol it would be crazy lookin, but if it helps it helps lol
They run one race at Bowman Gray Stadium with those 15 inchers and the drivers don't like it. Normally, the mods run 10 inch tires on that flat quarter mile track.
 
I "think" in the last month or so, I heard them talk about having a wider wheel, but not wider tire for next year. Now NASCAR says no "major changes" or was that "no changes?" I think they all look the same and they made the racing boring most of the time. But what do I know? I let my husband take care of everything on our cars. I'm lucky I know how to turn it on and jump-start them in a pinch. LOL :D
 
brewer just said the tires are 10.5 inches wide and 88 inches circumference (28 diameter). No wonder the tires cant keep up with the new car. Height is good, but still too narrow...I still say needs to be closer to 12 or 12.5.
I think it's 10.5" wide but it's wider in the center of the tire than on the front if you know what I'm saying.

I think NA$CAR just needs to use the Nationwide COT in Cup and eliminate Cup-Lites (Nationwide).
 
I "think" in the last month or so, I heard them talk about having a wider wheel, but not wider tire for next year. Now NASCAR says no "major changes" or was that "no changes?" I think they all look the same and they made the racing boring most of the time. But what do I know? I let my husband take care of everything on our cars. I'm lucky I know how to turn it on and jump-start them in a pinch. LOL :D
They did mention wider tires after the cluster**** they called "The 15th Allstate 400 at the Brickyard".

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/43806-wider-tires-in-nascars-future
 
Mods are running 13" tires.

"Hoosier Racing Tire Corp. was selected by NASCAR to be the exclusive tire provider to the NASCAR Whelen Modified Tour."

"The Modified Tour is NASCAR's only open-wheeled division. The cars weigh 2,610 pounds and are powered by a "small block" 350 to 360 cubic-inch engine mounted on monstrous 13" wide bias-ply tires manufactured at Hoosier's hi-tech production facility in Plymouth, IN. The 17-race series competes mainly in the northeast on tracks ranging in length from 1/4-mile to the 1.058-mile New Hampshire International Speedway."

http://www.hoosiertire.com/mt071706.htm

John Blewitt, the guy in the pic, was killed at Thompson last year. He was racing with his brother and they got tangled up. A NEMA (New England Midget Association) driver was also killed there recently. Tommy Baldwin's dad was killed here in a mod 4 years ago. The track is 5/8ths of a mile and "wicked" fast, 18.457 secs, 121.905 mph.
 
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