Deadline on charter system extension nearing

Discussion in 'NASCAR chat' started by FLRacingFan, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. FLRacingFan

    FLRacingFan Team Owner

    Shockingly, the teams think they deserve more money and the tracks don't want to to give it to them.

    NASCAR teams await word on charter payout
    https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2019/08/05/Leagues-and-Governing-Bodies/NASCAR.aspx

     
  2. AuzGrams

    AuzGrams Team Owner

    I'm sure the charter system is all fine and dandy for whatever reason, but as a fan it's beyond lame to only see 36 cars show up every week minimum.
     
  3. Team Penske

    Team Penske Team Owner

    However, many track executives are privately opposed to giving teams more money, with a rationale that the teams would just spend the added money on competition anyway and that over-spending is the problem.

    This is quite true. Some teams are struggling just to be back markers and could invest the money into building new, better cars. The top 5 teams would just spend more to find ways to make their cars more competitive. Nothing will change from the current deal.
    However, I think after 2014 without such a lucrative deal from the networks, NASCAR will become a whole new beast.
     
  4. sdj

    sdj Just a race fan

    However, many track executives are privately opposed to giving teams more money, with a rationale that the teams would just spend the added money on competition anyway and that over-spending is the problem.

    I gotta hit the Bull Shit.gif button on this statement.
     
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  5. Charlie Spencer

    Charlie Spencer Short tracks and road courses.

    I might agree if all 36 of those were competitive. They aren't.

    STICK AND BALL ALERT

    I was thinking earlier that NASCAR may be the only sanctioning body that has more participants at the top level than in each developmental series. Baseball has the fewest teams participating at the top, with an increasing number of teams as you move down the developmental ladder. There are hundreds of colleges feeding into a few dozen NFL and NBA teams. NASCAR actually has more participants at Cup level than in Xfinity, and more X than Truck teams.

    I realize sponsor, track, and payout considerations make this another comparison to stick and ball that ain't apples to oranges. However, I wish there was a way for NASCAR to have teams running at the level of competition appropriate for their resources; something besides the three-year charter withdrawal.

    Okay, I'm braced for abuse from people who think an Alan Kulwicki-style owner / driver is still possible in the 21st century.
     
  6. Charlie Spencer

    Charlie Spencer Short tracks and road courses.

    However, many track executives are privately opposed to giving teams more money, with a rationale that the teams would just spend the added money on competition anyway and that over-spending is the problem.

    And the problem with that is? How does that differ from the tracks spending money to add grandstands in the '90s and '00s, or upgrading them now? Would the tracks want the teams to spend it on, pray tell? People come to the tracks to see competitive teams; you'd think the tracks would encourage R&D spending.
     
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  7. StandOnIt

    StandOnIt Farm Truck

    over 7 million a car ;)
     
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  8. aunty dive

    aunty dive Team Owner

    So do I.

    What competitors do with their earnings is none of the track operators' business.
     
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  9. Privateer

    Privateer Team Owner

    STICK AND BALL ALERT

    In professional stick and ball, there's no such thing as buying your spot in the game or having to provide sponsorship in order to ensure you're starting? The people that are there are there because they have been deemed better.

    In American professional stick and ball, they have a draft system designed to give everyone a chance even if they had a bad last year. So the last-place finishing charter should have the right to pick the best driver from Xfinity or Trucks or whatever and they race with them once they agree to terms. "With the first pick, Rick Ware Racing selects Christopher Bell to drive for them in the 2020 season."

    In stick and ball, the actual competing teams actually lose money. What makes money is the venue selling tickets and the TV rights fees that the teams sell as a cohesive unit. So what should occur is all the race teams and car manufacturers are forced out of the sport, NASCAR fields all the cars themselves as an unbadged IROC-style competition, and the driver is effectively "team owner" by arranging his own sponsorship, buying the car, getting a crew, etc. Or as part the insane dumbassery that is NASCAR trying to exactly emulate stick and ball sports that has almost continuously failed to increase the size of the fanbase for the last 15 years, the tracks field and pay for their own cars as part of hosting a race, that way we can invent "home and away" competitors.
     
  10. Johali

    Johali Team Owner Contributor

    This is my personal response and does not in any way mean to take away from the seriousness of the esteemed member that posted it.

    :XXROFL::XXROFL::XXROFL:
     
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  11. Charlie Spencer

    Charlie Spencer Short tracks and road courses.

    If we could set economic and sponsorship constraints aside, I'd prefer something similar to what I understand happens in European football. The poorly performing car / team would be forced down to X, and the championship-winning X team would have the option to move up. If that championship team would put an owner over the four-car limit, or if the team doesn't want to move up, then the next highest-finishing team would be offered the chance.

    But I acknowledge that independent ownership and the sponsorship model makes that impossible.
     
  12. sdj

    sdj Just a race fan

    Does anyone really think folks like Humpy Wheeler gave, and or give, a flying sh!t what teams spent, no, they cared about keeping every dollar they could for the track and themselves.
     
  13. Johali

    Johali Team Owner Contributor

    Yep.
     
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  14. Formerjackman

    Formerjackman Team Owner

    I was never in favor of the charter system in the first place, so it will suit me fine if it crashes and burns.
     
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  15. Acs

    Acs Team Owner

    Yep, it's absolutely insane that 65% of the TV revenue goes straight to tracks that are used one, maybe two weekends a year. Plus they keep all the gate receipts and race sponsorship 100% to themselves. NASCAR has never had a more lucrative TV deal than it does now and yet we see record low fields and top-tier teams struggling to stay afloat. Taking ISM and SMI public was such a dumb greedy move.
     
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  16. aunty dive

    aunty dive Team Owner

    It won’t.

    People seem blissfully unaware that the car owners have a lot of drag.

    The owners, drivers and teams are the show.
     
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  17. Formerjackman

    Formerjackman Team Owner

    And the show goes on whether you show up or not. There will always be somebody there to take your place.
     
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  18. aunty dive

    aunty dive Team Owner

    Yeah ... some of those fabulous back-marker ARCA teams ... they’d finally make the big time.

    NASCAR will settle with these people. Bookmark it.
     
  19. gnomesayin

    gnomesayin Team Owner

    The reality that the major professional team sports leagues are owned by their franchisees, and that league executives are employed by the team owners should render these comparisons about how they are structured and operate as faulty. I believe there is more utility in comparing NASCAR to other professional racing series. Team-owned racing series (or series-owned teams) have existed, but have rarely flourished.

    That said, the comparisons you're thinking of are out of alignment. College football and basketball are not owned by the NFL and NBA. The NCAA's revenue doesn't come from those leagues. 99% percent of college players don't go on to play professionally. If anything, the hundreds of short tracks all over the country are more akin to these college sports. The Xfinity series relates more to the NBA's G League or summer league, which they own.

    But really, far more so to GP2, Moto2, Indy Lights, and so on.
     
  20. Team Penske

    Team Penske Team Owner

    One poster made a mistake and that is the tracks keep all the money. One reason the tracks get such a larger share of the TV money is that they have to pay out winnings after each race. In other words the teams already get a cut of that money.

    OR THEY USED TO.
     
  21. aunty dive

    aunty dive Team Owner

    They still do.

    The sad reality is that the harsh criticism reserved for the RTA is founded in ignorance.
     
  22. gnomesayin

    gnomesayin Team Owner

    My understanding is that the 25% figure commonly tossed around is the relative amount of TV revenue that is applied to purse money, points fund, etc. Not that a chunk of the 65% tracks receive is paid to the teams via purse money.

    I do not believe that the teams are receiving 'purse money' (which of course is far more complicated than traditional race winnings) plus a separate 25% of TV revenues through some sort of additional payments.

    Am I incorrect?
     
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  23. aunty dive

    aunty dive Team Owner

    Yes. The tracks pay prize money for each race ... sourced from their revenue streams - TV money, ticket sales, at- track and race sponsor advertisers, “box” and box catering dollars and so on.

    NASCAR pays an additional 25% of their TV revenues to teams ... the RTA Agreement money.

    The teams want more of the dollars track operators currently receive. They know that the tracks are profitable. Most of that information is public knowledge.
     
  24. gnomesayin

    gnomesayin Team Owner

    If that is the case, then that has been entirely missing from the reporting on these issues. The basic 65-25-10 split has been reported and unchanged since the last TV agreements, which were negotiated before the establishment of the RTA and charters.

    Here's Bob Pockrass in 2015 characterizing it as "25 percent to the teams through the purse":

    https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nas...team-owners-nascar/1wz7zn27zmydz1g83sfupj4dwc

    I apologize, but I'm confused.
     
  25. FLRacingFan

    FLRacingFan Team Owner

    It's evident with the quarterly and annual findings, or more conspicuously the numerous high-dollar renovations going on, that the tracks are hardly hurting financially. I think it's a combination of simple greed, wanting to shift blame for some of the sport's shortcomings, and the belief that the next TV deal could very well be worth less than the current one (ISC published some projections detailing this recently) so they want four more years of such a high percentage of that FOX and NBC bread.
     
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  26. AuzGrams

    AuzGrams Team Owner

    There's about 33-34 competitive cars. The 51 Rick Ware car is chartered and sucks, the 77 sucks too. Cope's 00 team & Jay Robinson having Ross Chastain in his car are at least somewhat competitive to an extent IMO.

    Go back to the 2015 system where the top 36 in speed make the show, and 4 provisional based on points. I don't care for the charter system.
     
  27. LewTheShoe

    LewTheShoe Team Owner

    You are correct, by and large. The teams get 25% of the TV money, and that 25% constitutes the vast majority of the RTA agreement payments. Before the charter system, the 25% was paid via purses and points funds. Now there are purses and points funds plus some fixed payments to charters, but the purses are smaller to compensate. (Smaller traditional purses offset by a schedule of payments to each charter... this was an objective of the RTA from the beginning.)

    Track operators also contribute toward the purse, but it is "small beer" in almost every case. Basically, they pocket their 65% share of the TV money. In fact, the entry form for every race details the total purse and shows how much of it is that 25% of TV money channeled in from Nascar. Entry forms are confidential, but Bob Pockrass has reported the TV money dominates the contributions from the promoters.

    The charter system has not cost Nascar or the tracks even one dollar compared to pre-charter payouts. Some teams get more and some get less, but collectively the race teams get the same amount from Nascar and the tracks.

    I believe the teams need and deserve a higher share. The tracks are flush, and so is Nascar, while the teams struggle and sometimes disappear. I believe the greatest risk to the future of the sport is... adequate supply of high quality race teams to show up and put on the show every week. This risk is greater than attendance trends or TV ratings, IMO.
     
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  28. AuzGrams

    AuzGrams Team Owner

    Also to add to the back of the field - I still have no clue (I'm not claiming to be informed) why they have a system that doesn't have any cars missing the show anymore. Having more than the field cap makes 1st practices and/or qualifying more entertaining. I remember when qualifying was very entertaining to see who goes home. Even in 2015 there was teams missing the field.

    God it'd be nice to even have 41, 42, 43 cars vying for 40 spots on a weekly basis. The non-charter payout is so paltry.
     
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  29. Formerjackman

    Formerjackman Team Owner

    Yes, I think NASCAR will settle, because one, I don't think it's a fight they want to have, and two, I don't think it has makes a hell of a lot of difference to them one way or another.
     
  30. Privateer

    Privateer Team Owner

    Depends on your definition of competitive. There's a semi-dark line around 24th and there's a much darker line around 30th, with the best car beneath that being the Go FAS 32. Front Row expanding from 2 cars to 3, they seem to have fallen back competitively into this group as the 32 is in front of 2 of them in owner points.
     
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  31. LewTheShoe

    LewTheShoe Team Owner

    Can't have it both ways, not in today's world. You are wanting both large car counts and procedures that ensure some of them fail. The most sure-fire way to reduce the life span of a race team is to send 'em home after qualifying. It's plenty hard to find sponsors even with guaranteed starting spots. It's plenty hard to get the financial books to balance without missing races entirely.

    I'm much more worried about the other end of the grid... the front of the grid where races are won and championships are on the line. Consider the advanced age of the few owners who have figured out how to make it work in this adverse business environment. They operate with much greater risk, and far lower reward, than anyone else in the stock car racing industry. There is no guarantee that HMS will survive as a competitive team without the savvy and passion of Rick Hendrick. Same for all the others... Penske, Childress, Roush, Haas, Gibbs, etc. Keep in mind... there has never been a successful passing of a Nascar Cup team to the next generation. Nascar needs to find a business model that is attractive to new entrants.
     
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  32. StandOnIt

    StandOnIt Farm Truck

    I'm not worried about any of it.

    [​IMG]
     
    Charlie Spencer likes this.
  33. Charlie Spencer

    Charlie Spencer Short tracks and road courses.

    Yeah, that one's going over so many heads...
     
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  34. aunty dive

    aunty dive Team Owner

    I was sure I had read this during the switch-over to RTA:

    https://www.espn.com/racing/nascar/...-financial-filing-sheds-light-nascar-concerns

    "Dover will receive $30.7 million in television money for its two Sprint Cup weekends -- one a tripleheader weekend, another with Xfinity and Cup races -- and it will increase anywhere from $1.1 million to $1.4 million a year through 2020. That television money is 90 percent of the overall television money of the event -- 10 percent goes straight to NASCAR -- and then Dover puts 27.78 percent of the money it receives (25 percent of the overall television money) into its purse and sanction fees."

    This is a look at Speedway Motorsports' 2018 financials:

    https://www.globenewswire.com/news-...018-and-Provides-Full-Year-2019-Guidance.html

    ISC:

    http://www.annualreports.com/HostedData/AnnualReports/PDF/NASDAQ_ISCA_2018.pdf

    The SMI report offers more revenue and expense detail than that of ISC.

    What is more interesting to me are the expense items described as NASCAR event management costs. A euphemism for sanctioning fees ... and they're huge and they're more than half of the TV revenues.
     
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  35. Charlie Spencer

    Charlie Spencer Short tracks and road courses.

    Wouldn't 'event management fees' also include stuff like parking attendants, gate operators to scan tickets and check coolers, police and highway patrol fees, and other costs I'm probably forgetting or don't know about?
     
  36. aunty dive

    aunty dive Team Owner

    The tracks do all that stuff ... employees.

    There are also concerts, car shows, racing schools, etc. using the various facilities. For a price.
     
  37. aunty dive

    aunty dive Team Owner

    The NASCAR weekly crew - timing + scoring, inspection, race control and so on is expensive. It wouldn’t surprise me if those costs were passed on to the track operators.
     
    Charlie Spencer likes this.
  38. AuzGrams

    AuzGrams Team Owner

    I don't think the 36 car (31st in owner points) is that uncompetitive, personally I think Tifft just isn't very talented whatsoever. Just look at what Reddick is doing in the 2.

    You can make the argument that Jay Robinson's 15 & Derrike Cope's 00 are still slow and probably win the argument. I still consider them somewhat competitive, at times.

    The 27 & 77 with Premium are junk, Rick Ware's 2 chartered cars & open car are junk, Carl Long 66 car really tries, but is junk.

    I really hope Gaunt Brothers Racing & GMS Racing make their way into the Cup Series as chartered teams soon.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2019
  39. Privateer

    Privateer Team Owner

    I actually met Tifft once. In a previous job I attended the Waste Expo in Las Vegas and he was there for a sponsor commitment when he was still in Xfinity.



    (The Premium #27 is an unchartered car.)

    What charters are Gaunt and GMS buying/leasing? Although they could just enter, because only a couple races reaches 40 entries.

    The Gaunt Brothers #96 car is actually ahead of 1 of the Rick Ware chartered cars in owner points, in spite of not doing half the races. NASCAR has never taken a charter away from anyone, and the charter owners invented this leasing bullcrap to in part get around the regulations that allow them to do that. Then you have the insanity that the Spire #77 charter according to NASCAR was series champion 2 seasons ago.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2019
  40. AuzGrams

    AuzGrams Team Owner

    Tifft should have stayed in Xfinity. Doesn't seem like he's some entitled a**hole out there, he's just not very fast.

    I have no clue if Gaunt or GMS are actually interested in a charter, but those teams would actually be competitive unlike Rick Ware.
     

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