Does anyone here know the RTA's Charter status?

dpkimmel2001

dpkimmel2001

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I get very confused by all of the pre-2017 maneuvering. Charters sold or being leased..... Are any of these going unused for 2017? The Wood Bro's went without one and still made every race in 2016. Did I miss them taking advantage of one of these team closures by leasing or purchasing one for 2017? Or..... did they come to realize that a Charter doesn't really even matter?

NASCAR granted the Charters after their meetings with the RTA before 2016. Do you think the RTA/owners are getting their money's worth from these or are they proving to be somewhat of a bust?
 
This is how I feel when trying to make sense of it. Or anything to do with Nascars decision making process.

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Johali said:
This is how I feel when trying to make sense of it. Or anything to do with Nascars decision making process.

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I hear ya but weren't the Charters more or less the RTA's idea? I don't think anyone other that the owners had a thing to gain from securing one. At this point I wonder if they are worth what they even intended them to be.
 
I have a reasonably good grasp on how the system works, but don't ask me if the RTA is satisfied with the first year's results.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I have a reasonably good grasp on how the system works, but don't ask me if the RTA is satisfied with the first year's results.
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Don't get me wrong, I know how the system works. I just don't know the current car count out there for 2017. Do we currently have some of these Charters going unused?
 
I think the charters are great for the sport and it makes it easier for new owners to get into NASCARs top series. I like it a lot better than drivers using owner points to make the race. Woods Brothers still don't have a charter that I know of and they showed this year they really don't need one but it would help them out financially if they were to secure one. HScott might have one available with a couple potential buys like the 77 or 21. Personally I feel like its a lot easier to keep up with over the old owners points system they used to use.
 
I have a reasonably good grasp on how the system works, but don't ask me if the RTA is satisfied with the first year's results.
dpkimmel2001 said:
Don't get me wrong, I know how the system works. I just don't know the current car count out there for 2017. Do we currently have some of these Charters going unused?
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the #7 Baldwin to #95 Leavine deal is already done.

From Jayski:
  • Charters that could / will switch / change
    #15-HScott Motorsports, looks like Scott will leave the sport and sell / lease Charter, maybe to #77 FRR team.
    #16-Roush Fenway Racing, Biffle leaves, team to lease the Charter to a 2nd JTG Daugherty team (announced)
    #32-Go FAS Racing, could lose Charter as the lowest full-time team, but it plans on coming back full time in 2017 and has some sponsors
    #33-Circle Sport, was leased to #95 Leavine Family Racing, must use it or sell it, can't lease it
    #46-HScott Motorsports, team leased Charter from Premium Motorsports and will close as Annett moves to NXS Series
    #62-Premium Motorsports (ran #55 & #98 in 2016), leased to #46 HScott Motorsports. The #46 will close as Annett moves to NXS Series
    #62-Premium Motorsports, could lose Charter as the 2nd lowest full-time team, and no announced 2017 plans

  • Teams Looking to buy / lease a Charter in 2017
    #21-Wood Brothers Racing / Ryan Blaney
    ?#59/?46/#74-JTG Daugherty Racing / Chris Buescher, leases #16 Charter
    #77-Furniture Row Racing / Erik Jones
 
Woods Brothers isn't apart of the RTA anymore and might not even want a charter.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Is there some sort of stipulation that you have to be a RTA member to get a Charter? I don't remember that.
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I don't think there is but I think Woods Brothers didn't like not reviving a charter and don't really like the charter system.
 
the problem with running without one is that team ends up winning less money for race winnings. That info we don't have a clue about as casual fans. we don't know if its 25% less or half whatever. making every race and getting more race winnings I suppose thats worth different amounts depending on the team and where they plan on running competitive wise that year.
 
From my post in the 2017 silly season thread. These are the rides that are not officially filled yet.

23 ???David Ragan - BK Racing - has charter
30 ??? Josh Wise/Gray Gaulding - The Motorsports Group (TMG) - no charter
32 ??? Not Jeffery Earnhardt nor Bobby Labonte - Go Fas Racing - has charter
33 ??? Casey Mears - Circle Sport Racing - Must use or sell charter, cannot lease it
34 ??? Front Row Motorsports - has charter
44 ??????? - RPM - has charter
83 ???Matt DiBenedetto - BK Racing - has charter
55/98 ???? - Premium Motorsports - gets charter back from HSM 46


I suspect the 33 will use their charter with Casey Mears at the wheel. The BK Racing team will re-up with Ragan and DiBenedetto, which leaves the 32, 34, and 98 open. I have to imagine Biffle in the 44, and that the 34 will keep their charter and find a driver. The 32 and 98 could lease or sell, but not sure that is the direction they want to go.
 
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aunty dive said:
The Woods' "reward" is a smaller paycheck every week.
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By a large amount. I can't imagine they don't want one. Yet, here we are and people are making moves and they still don't have one.
 
DUN24 said:
By a large amount. I can't imagine they don't want one. Yet, here we are and people are making moves and they still don't have one.
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It's a question of return on investment, of how much they'll have to pay up front to get the charter vs. how long it will take for those larger paychecks to cover that cost. I recall from an early Bidness 101' class that most companies look for 3- to 5-year return.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
It's a question of return on investment, of how much they'll have to pay up front to get the charter vs. how long it will take for those larger paychecks to cover that cost. I recall from an early Bidness 101' class that most companies look for 3- to 5-year return.
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Yes. I don't know how the Penske / Blaney / Wood Brothers arrangement is structured financially, but it seems unlikely that they would be able to run full-time if Penske weren't parking a driver there and assisting. I suspect it is viewed as a year-to-year agreement. It wouldn't make a lot of sense for the Woods to pay market rate for a charter that they will make back over several years if they have no assurance they will continue as a full-time team. Competitively they have proven that they don't need it; guaranteed spots in the field mean very little right now if you have good equipment. The price is going to be considerably less this off-season than last. I would think Penske might just buy one and lease it to them until they finally expand.
 
Wood Bros. isn't losing 6 million in prize money and that was the buy out price for the Waltrip deal.
The only teams that benefit are the bottom feeders that can't run in the front. I predict there will be more charters than teams willing to pay for it.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
NASCAR granted the Charters after their meetings with the RTA before 2016. Do you think the RTA/owners are getting their money's worth from these or are they proving to be somewhat of a bust?
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This is a 100% RTA deal. NASCAR rubber-stamped it.

Are the original charter holders getting their money's worth? I'd say yes ... the initial cost for each of the 36 quasi-franchises was $0.00.
 
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Team Penske said:
Wood Bros. isn't losing 6 million in prize money and that was the buy out price for the Waltrip deal.
The only teams that benefit are the bottom feeders that can't run in the front. I predict there will be more charters than teams willing to pay for it.
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Some people, including the billionaires and multi-millionaires holding these things, are inclined to take a somewhat longer view.

How much the Wood Brothers give up in prize money depends on how long they operate without a charter. The market will determine the lease or sale value of these things from one season to the next. Commerce 101.
 
As I said from the beginning the problem with charters is that there is an oversupply so they are not worth anything of great value on the open market as I don't think you can start and park with one of them and retain it. I am not knocking the charter system as in theory it is a great idea but in all practicality nothing of great substance as if Rick Hendrick wanted to get out of Nascar and sell his charters there would be no buyers. .
 
The advert showing the DJ masquerading as a financial adviser always makes me laugh.
 
I stated "my opinion" as did another. Then there are those that just trash opinions rather than voice any facts. So I guess all they have is opinions as well.
 
Team Penske said:
I stated "my opinion" as did another. Then there are those that just trash opinions rather than voice any facts. So I guess all they have is opinions as well.
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I trashed your opinion?

Please point me to the post where I did that.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
As I said from the beginning the problem with charters is that there is an oversupply so they are not worth anything of great value on the open market as I don't think you can start and park with one of them and retain it. I am not knocking the charter system as in theory it is a great idea but in all practicality nothing of great substance as if Rick Hendrick wanted to get out of Nascar and sell his charters there would be no buyers. .
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Well I think we are going to find out if there are any buyers real soon if RFR goes under. They can only lease the 16 charter for 1 year and then have to sell or use it.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
As I said from the beginning the problem with charters is that there is an oversupply so they are not worth anything of great value on the open market as I don't think you can start and park with one of them and retain it. I am not knocking the charter system as in theory it is a great idea but in all practicality nothing of great substance as if Rick Hendrick wanted to get out of Nascar and sell his charters there would be no buyers. .
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I'm sure you can't start and park AND avoid losing your charter under the 'Bottom Three' clause. But with the trouble finding a series sponsorship and the obvious decline of money in the sport, S&P may no longer be a profitable business model, esp. if you're making payments on the loan for the charter.
 
Team Penske said:
I stated "my opinion" as did another. Then there are those that just trash opinions rather than voice any facts. So I guess all they have is opinions as well.
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Like I said the other day the more I think of the RTA and why Kauffman was so eager to get things going was so he could pocket 10 million from the sale of the 2 MWR charters. I don't think the charters are a bad idea as if you got one for free and it guarantees you a starting spot in each race plus a bigger purse than what you would get otherwise what isn't to like? At least at this point the charters are not worth anything, or very little, on the open market as no one needs one. If a new manufacturer wanted to enter Nascar with 4-6 cars they could be worth something but I don't see that happening.

Don't worry about Aunty as he is from the land of Raif Mair, Mike Harcourt, Gordon Campbell, Stockboy Day, Hedy Fry, Wacky Bennett and Wacky Jr. And the greatest hockey player ever born in BC (Steve Yzerman) moved to Ontario as a youngster so he could learn what it is all about.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I'm sure you can't start and park AND avoid losing your charter under the 'Bottom Three' clause. But with the trouble finding a series sponsorship and the obvious decline of money in the sport, S&P may no longer be a profitable business model, esp. if you're making payments on the loan for the charter.
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What you say makes sense and I can't imagine a team wanting to pay much for a charter if they were a fringe player like so many cars in the bottom 20 are. We often hear the term "mid-pack" and while that is technically correct for drivers finishing 16-25th in the standings in reality there is the top 12 and then everyone else.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
Like I said the other day the more I think of the RTA and why Kauffman was so eager to get things going was so he could pocket 10 million from the sale of the 2 MWR charters. I don't think the charters are a bad idea as if you got one for free and it guarantees you a starting spot in each race plus a bigger purse than what you would get otherwise what isn't to like? At least at this point the charters are not worth anything, or very little, on the open market as no one needs one. If a new manufacturer wanted to enter Nascar with 4-6 cars they could be worth something but I don't see that happening.
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Irrespective of the amount of smoke you're willing to blow about this issue, a Cup series charter has a value of X. X will vary from one season to the next based upon supply, demand, the price tags attached to recent sales, which organizations individual charters belong to and so on. Rather like franchises in other sports, real estate, various and sundry financial instruments, etc.

One of your previous declarative statements valued the HMS charters at zero. A declarative statement that appeared to be posing as a fact .... or was that just your opinion?
 
aunty dive said:
Irrespective of the amount of smoke you're willing to blow about this issue, a Cup series charter has a value of X. X will vary from one season to the next based upon supply, demand, the price tags attached to recent sales, which organizations individual charters belong to and so on. Rather like franchises in other sports, real estate, various and sundry financial instruments, etc.

One of your previous declarative statements valued the HMS charters at zero. A declarative statement that appeared to be posing as a fact .... or was that just your opinion?
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What is something worth that no one needs or wants? Common sense says not a whole heck of a lot.
 
FLRacingFan said:
Adam Stern ‏@A_S12
.@GanassiChip says charter system working, but on charter values, "I think we won't fully realize the benefit of that for 10 years or more."
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The only problem is that the charters go poof when the current TV contract expires so no one really owns a charter anyway. At the rate Nascar is bleeding fans in 10 years a half a beef may be worth more.
 
aunty dive said:
The longer view. The stock in trade of millionaires and billionaires.
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It will be interesting to see if a significant demand ever develops for a charter as I would think they would be worth less and less the deeper we get into the current TV contract as they may disappear for good at that point. If new deep pocketed owners were clamoring to get into the series I could see a charter selling for a few million bucks but how many of those types have entered Nascar in the past 10 years?
 
The Charters were given FREE under certain conditions. As Aunty mentioned the charter holders get a bigger cut of the purse of each race. I have no idea what amount that entails, or how much more that would be over the previous years. If the amount is substantial then that means the bottom teams without a charter are being paid poorly and will struggle even more. Those bottom teams that lease their charter can only do so for one year and then they must use it or lose it. Eventually ( in my opinion) Nascar will take back those charters and give them to other teams. If this happens then I say the charters are really worthless in the long run. Yes a couple may get sold but I doubt the demand will increase and I believe Nascar will just take them back.
Roush may lease their 16 charter for one year but I think the fee will be more for their driver than any money. After 2017 Roush will either run another car or let Nascar take it back.

I think many teams right now are praying that MONSTER can take control of the sport and just use BF as a front man.
 
NASCAR has little to do with the charter system. It's an issue completely separate from their business ... it has everything to do with the business of the team owners and nothing to do with racing.

Why people are bothered, upset or annoyed by this stuff is beyond me.
 
If a team like Premium Motorsports loses a charter due to the "bottom three" clause, what happens to it? Would a team like the Wood Brothers be awarded the vacant charter based off of their qualifications, or would it simply be available to the highest bidder?
 
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