Driver Looking Out For Themselves?

[muggle not]

OK, what do y'all think?

Drivers looking out for selves

BOB LIPPER
POINT OF VIEW Oct 6, 2005

Twenty laps of a Talladega Sunday was all it took to reconfirm the notion that Jamie McMurray and Kurt Busch knew exactly what they were doing.

Not on the asphalt.

In the negotiating sessions.

Twenty laps into Talladega's latest white-knuckler, Michael Waltrip did a couple of flips. This is cool if you're an Olympic gymnast in Athens. It is not so cool if you're going 180-some miles per hour through Turn 1 of an insanely banked speedway and there is mayhem all about you.

Waltrip's Chevy barrel-rolled twice after getting bashed in a multicar dustup and eventually came to rest on its roof. He was all shook up but left the building intact. Others through the years have not been so fortunate.

"To a certain degree, you are happy you're alive when you come out of here," Tony Stewart told reporters afterward. "But at the same time, you're happy to be alive when you walk out of every racetrack."

Big difference between auto racing and most other sports: You risk personal devastation in auto racing. You risk your life. You do this 36 times per year if you're a NASCAR major-leaguer, with add-ons for Speedweeks in Daytona and the all-star race in Charlotte and test sessions around the country and qualifying runs and happy hours . . .


And for being overextended and overexposed to danger, said drivers are grossly undercompensated, expecially when you consider their piece of the pie when sized up against the Shaqs and A-Rods and Tigers of this world.

Which brings us back to McMurray and Busch. Earlier this season, both made waves by announcing they were bolting their teams for more lucrative pastures come 2007 - McMurray switching from Chip Ganassi Racing to Roush Racing and Busch from Roush to Penske Racing.

These moves induced much teeth-gnashing and some criticism. Jeff Gordon called the new deals "a bit disrespectful."

What they really are is a bit of balancing the books.

Look, NASCAR drivers aren't destitute. Gordon and Rusty Wallace are doing fine. But at, say, the Kevin Lepage end of the spectrum, they're not raking it in, either. Fact is, compared with $4 million journeyman infielders and $6 million second-string quarterbacks, they're being low-balled - their take a skimpy fraction of the multibillion-dollar NASCAR pot that's made the ruling France family filthy rich.

The NBA Players Association would never put up with such nonsense - its members are guaranteed 57 percent of the league's revenues - but NASCAR drivers have no union. They have no pension fund. They pay for their own health and life insurance. You'd be on the money (so to speak) to assume the premiums are out of sight.

The real bottom line is NASCAR drivers are entitled to get what they can while they can. That's their leverage, and McMurray and Busch were wise to use it. They sideswiped conventional practice. They didn't play nicey-nice. But they maybe moved up a tax bracket or two. Good for them if they spark a trend.

"Unfortunately for the team and for the sponsor, sometimes what's best for you is not what's best for everyone else," McMurray said recently. "In my position, I did what I felt was the best choice for my career. Sometimes with what you do, you disappoint other people."

That's an unfortunate byproduct of impending divorce - but so be it. Playing their game of high-speed roulette week after week, NASCAR's drivers use spotters high atop the grandstands to help them maneuver through traffic. Otherwise, no one is looking out for them but themselves.

 

[bumpzter]

A lot of words saying nothing.

O wait, maybe he is saying something. Drivers are underpaid. Raise the ticket prices. Make the fans pay twice what they do now. Sure!

 

[Kyle48]

An unfortunate byproduct of the drivers getting what they deserve, in my opinion they should be the highest paid celebrities, would probably be higher ticket prices.

However, we'd pay it. Just like you're paying $3 for a gallon of gas - we'd pay it.

Unfortunately the France family somehow, in this age of high-powered sports agents has conviced these drivers they're not the show. Somehow they have been conviced the fans come to see the cars, and the circus that follows the races - not the drivers. In my case that's not true, and I think it's not true for the vast majority of us. if all of a sudden Junior wasn't behind the wheel of the 8 car, or Jimmie didn't pilot the 48, and so on and so forth; attendence would drop. Despite what the France family has these guys convinced of. Would NASCAR die? No, certainly not, but in juxtaposition with F1 drivers and the money generated by NASCAR, then toss in the explosive growth the sunday afternoon fair has garnered over the past couple years, it's a wonder more quality drivers like Stewart, Gordon, and Earnhardt haven't hopped into IRL, Champ Series or even F1.

Picture Bristol with Shelmerdine in the 8, Raines in the 29, and Hermie Sadler in the 38 banging bumpers through turn four fighting for the win.

Not quite as exciting as Gordon and Wallace tangling, huh?

Picture Todd Bodine in the 20 and Ashton Lewis in the 48 drafting down the backstretch at Daytona in the front at a measley 150 mph, because the restrictor plates have been enlarged so much due to the many wrecks that have happened since the mass exodus that is now known as the Great Strike of 2008.

Probably wouldn't buy a ticket if it were only $20 then, huh?

NASCAR drivers are the garage area laughing stock of the motorsports world, not because of lack of talent, but because they sign for peanuts of what other drivers do. Michael Shumacher is the highest paid sports star in the world - because he leveraged his talent versus the money that can be earned by getting to see him pilot an F1 car. If NASCAR was the world class sport the France family and SPEED channel have us convinced it is - why isn't Shumacher already driving a stock car on sundays? Because he knows the France famliy is a joke, and their strangle hold on the talent is almost illegal.

Penske has one of the most talented drivers today in Sam Hornish Jr. Rumors flew about him coming to drive the 2. Anyone that knows anything about motorsports knew the kid wasn't coming, as bad as we may have liked to see it. Even being under the same owner, Penske would leverage what other NASCAR drivers are making against Hornish. Penske should, that's good business. However, it doesn't make it right for the drivers.

The drivers are the show, and as I have brayed in thread after thread here; until they buck up, and call France's bluff, they're going to remain the worst treated sports stars in the world. And we'll never attract quality European drivers to solidify NASCAR as a worldwide motorsports powerhouse. It will remain, as it should with the way it's being run, a North American entertainment event to hawk products to people who are sunburned and consumed too much alcohol.

- k y l e

 

[Steve007]

I agree with most of what you said Kyle.
Except for the enlarging of the plates making the cars slower. I'm sure you meant making them smaller to do the same.

 

[BobbyFord]

Who the hell is Bob Lipper, anyway?

 

[buckaroo]

Kyle, I understand your gripe, but I disagree with the whole premise. What made Jeff Gordon, Rusty Wallace and the whole lot of the big time drivers is that they began driving. To say that no one would go to the races to see the likes of Shelmerdine, or Bodine, or even anyone that we've never heard of is out right wrong. While the attendance might drop for a race or two, it wouldn't take long for the fans to pick their new favorites and the sport wouldn't miss a beat. It's like I've always said, if the NFL wasn't televised and neither was college football and high school football was all that was seen on TV, nationally, there would be a huge fanbase for the sport and instead of the Dallas Cowboys being America's team, you might get something like Jenks, Oklahoma...America's Team. Yes, this is entertainment and it is flourishing.

Hearing Jeff Gordon speak ill of Busch and McMurray going to another team is about the silliest thing I've hear in a long time. Afterall, had not Rick Hendrick dangled a million dollar check in front of Jeffy, he would probably still be sitting behind the wheel of a Ford, or now a Dodge, or maybe a Toyota in the future. It was Bill Davis who put Jeffy in the seat of that Ford Thunderbird that Mark Martin was driving. They all had great plans for Jeff, but he did what he thought was the best of himself. As it turned out, he made a great decision, but now he is questioning other drivers who might do the same thing?

 

[Kyle48]

Kyle, I understand your gripe, but I disagree with the whole premise. What made Jeff Gordon, Rusty Wallace and the whole lot of the big time drivers is that they began driving. To say that no one would go to the races to see the likes of Shelmerdine, or Bodine, or even anyone that we've never heard of is out right wrong. While the attendance might drop for a race or two, it wouldn't take long for the fans to pick their new favorites and the sport wouldn't miss a beat. It's like I've always said, if the NFL wasn't televised and neither was college football and high school football was all that was seen on TV, nationally, there would be a huge fanbase for the sport and instead of the Dallas Cowboys being America's team, you might get something like Jenks, Oklahoma...America's Team. Yes, this is entertainment and it is flourishing.

That's not the main point - the talent level would drop because of what NASCAR would force us to watch. The absense of a product, or quality product, due to the France family monopoly is exactly what we're discussing. The players of the NFL, if disbanded, would find another outlet or stage to preform on, because that's what the people want. The same bears true in NASCAR's absence of talent - Johnson would run someplace else. Wallace would run someplace else. Gordon(s) would run someplace else. Thus, the fans would watch something else, thus NASCAR would suffer - not stock racing as a whole. Just as in your hypothesis, football would still be played - just not as the NFL. Until the drivers grasp this, and it appears some of them are (see McMurray/Busch), we'll still see the same dumb rules, the same underpaid drivers, on the same high-banked, crash-filled tracks.

Hearing Jeff Gordon speak ill of Busch and McMurray going to another team is about the silliest thing I've hear in a long time. Afterall, had not Rick Hendrick dangled a million dollar check in front of Jeffy, he would probably still be sitting behind the wheel of a Ford, or now a Dodge, or maybe a Toyota in the future. It was Bill Davis who put Jeffy in the seat of that Ford Thunderbird that Mark Martin was driving. They all had great plans for Jeff, but he did what he thought was the best of himself. As it turned out, he made a great decision, but now he is questioning other drivers who might do the same thing?

Very solid point on Gordon.

- k y l e

 

[Eagle1]

Kyle, I understand your gripe, but I disagree with the whole premise. What made Jeff Gordon, Rusty Wallace and the whole lot of the big time drivers is that they began driving. To say that no one would go to the races to see the likes of Shelmerdine, or Bodine, or even anyone that we've never heard of is out right wrong. While the attendance might drop for a race or two, it wouldn't take long for the fans to pick their new favorites and the sport wouldn't miss a beat. It's like I've always said, if the NFL wasn't televised and neither was college football and high school football was all that was seen on TV, nationally, there would be a huge fanbase for the sport and instead of the Dallas Cowboys being America's team, you might get something like Jenks, Oklahoma...America's Team. Yes, this is entertainment and it is flourishing.
Hearing Jeff Gordon speak ill of Busch and McMurray going to another team is about the silliest thing I've hear in a long time. Afterall, had not Rick Hendrick dangled a million dollar check in front of Jeffy, he would probably still be sitting behind the wheel of a Ford, or now a Dodge, or maybe a Toyota in the future. It was Bill Davis who put Jeffy in the seat of that Ford Thunderbird that Mark Martin was driving. They all had great plans for Jeff, but he did what he thought was the best of himself. As it turned out, he made a great decision, but now he is questioning other drivers who might do the same thing?

I agree with you Buck on this and totally disagree with Kyle.

That is what I've been saying all along is the difference between a RACE fan and a DRIVER fan.

I'm a race fan, have been for a lot of years Loooong before there was ever a Jimmie Jam, Jr, JG or the likes of most of these guys. In fact before NASCAR ever heard of Ricky Rudd, Dale Jarret or even Dale E. and I haven't left yet.
These guys want to step out of the cars because they think it's to tough, let em go. I gaurantee you there's some young up and coming racers out there that NASCAR won't miss a beat. Probably bring in a whole crowd of new fans, some will be driver fans like you, but many will become NASCAR racing fans no matter who's racing.

You really don't have a clue to what you speak do you??
LEAVE NASCAR to go to the IRL!!!!! For what, a fraction of what they make now??

JG, Ryan Newman and a bunch others came FROM USAC because of the money!
JJ Yeley, Tony Stewart are the ONLY Triple Crown winners in USAC, but the Money is better in NASCAR.
Tony Stewart is an IRL Champion, but the money is better in NASCAR.

Why do you think drivers from ALL other forms of racing except F=1 are dying to get into NASCAR?
Do a little research, show me any other racing series that the drivers make more than the NASCAR other than F-1.
Remember it costs over $400,000,000 a year to run an F-1 team, NASCAR top teams get $20,000,000 a year so do the F-1 drivers make 20 times that of a NASCAR driver?
I think when you actually research it you'll find the lower level teams in NASCAR pay their drivers as much or more than teams in IRL and CCWS.

 

[Eagle1]

That's not the main point - the talent level would drop because of what NASCAR would force us to watch. The absense of a product, or quality product, due to the France family monopoly is exactly what we're discussing. The players of the NFL, if disbanded, would find another outlet or stage to preform on, because that's what the people want. The same bears true in NASCAR's absence of talent - Johnson would run someplace else. Wallace would run someplace else. Gordon(s) would run someplace else. Thus, the fans would watch something else, thus NASCAR would suffer - not stock racing as a whole. Just as in your hypothesis, football would still be played - just not as the NFL. Until the drivers grasp this, and it appears some of them are (see McMurray/Busch), we'll still see the same dumb rules, the same underpaid drivers, on the same high-banked, crash-filled tracks.



Very solid point on Gordon.

- k y l e

This is what really jerks my strings, someone spouting of "their opinion" as if it were fact.
IF it's your opinion, state that! It is YOUR opinion the talent level would drop
The FACT is that over 50 years drivers have come and gone constantly recylcing the talent and there has ALWAYS been a great deal of talent at any given time in NASCAR.

So just what is Kyle Busch, Kasey Khane, Carl Edwards? Chop Souy? I gaurantee you there's ample talent out there racing today that could step in and make almost as good a showing as these guys have.

Besides, as I stated in my last post none of these guys are going anywhere to race for peanuts. It's only people sitting on their couch thinking how smart they are that can't think past the end of their nose that thinks this stuff.

Show ME and everyone that posts here how legally NASCAR is a monopoly. I'm tired of such ignorant unsubstanciated BS trying to be passed off as fact.

It's been pointed out by several people that actually do have knowledge of the laws governing business how NASCAR is NOT in fact a monopoly but a Privately owned and opporated business.

NASCAR is a registered Trade name for a specific business. Period !!!
#1 It is NOT a sport! The sport is auto racing.
#2 It is NOT the only auto racing series in the USA!
#3 It is NOT the only "Stock Car" auto racing series in the USA!
#4 NASCAR DOES race at tracks that "Other" sanctioning bodies of auto
racing hold events at.
#5 NASCAR does NOT penalize its drivers or teams for taking part in other sanctioning bodies racing events.
#6 ISC DOES hold events by other sanctioning bodies at tracks it
owns other than just NASCAR events. ( which it doesn't have to for egalities, but to make more profits for it's shareholders.)
#7 Many big businesses have seperate Corporations set up to deal with the real estate side of their business for purchasing, building and maintanence there of. There is NO difference if that building be a huge shopping center to put a Home Depot in or a race track, they are both the the facilities needed for the type of business each is engaging into.
#8 It is also advised to do this because of legal liabilities. If you get hurt at the shopping center you sue the Corp. that owns it, not Home Depot. If you get hurt at the track you sue ISC, not NASCAR.
#9 ALL other racing sanctioning bodies could buy or build tracks it raced on if it so desired to, no one is stopping them.

The problem with people passing off such misinformation which is really only their opinion as "FACT" is there are many new fans that read all kinds of NASCAR racing boards and don't know the difference and think it's true. Which just spreads the disease of misinformation even further. So I take it upon myself to point out the FACTS and misrepresentations by the uninformed lacking the knowledge to understand the facts.

I own my own business.
I registered my Trade Name and logo.
I make all decisions and rules regarding how I run my business.
I decide who I will and who I won't do business with.
I set the hours & days I do business.
I set my prices and if you don't like them you are more than welcome to get someone else to do the service I'm bidding on.
I own my own building in which conduct my business.
I own my own vehicles and equipment.
If I decide to expand I will purchase more buildings to conduct my business in.
I hire and fire my employees as I determine neccessary.
I will not allow anyone to do business using my registered trade name.

Is my business a monoploy?

There is NO difference between my business and NASCAR as far as the legalities governing monopolies

 

[buckaroo]

Kyle, I'll ask you if you've ever heard of the likes of Tim Brown (not the NFLer), Burt Myers, Jr. Miller, Bobby Hutchens or Pudin Swisher? Unless you live around Winston Salem, you probably haven't with the exception of Bobby Ray who is Richard Childress' chief engineer. However, did you know that he is also a race car driver and drives exclusively NASCAR races? The point is that though Burt Myers has tried out with Jack Roush and that Jr. Miller has actually raced in several Cup races a long time ago, they are the top dogs at several tracks in this area and of course, being so, are famous in their own right. During the season that Bowman Gray Stadium is racing, which is only on Saturday nights, the track seldom fails to fill the stands of over 10,000 people. Not something that a big track on the Cup circuit would brag about, but when it comes to local Saturday night racing, that's a huge number. Guess what, when a Cup race is raced on Saturday night, BGS still fills the stands and most of those people are also avid Cup fans, but they still go to their local races.

I've heard the argument about "the best" vs. "mediocre" many times before, but it's what's in front of the fans that counts. Jimmie Johnson didn't build a national fan base until he finally made the big leagues. Even when he was driving Busch cars, few people knew what he was like. The same for all the other guys with few exceptions. Now you may tell me that you wouldn't watch Cup races without those guys that you think are the best, but how would you know they were the best if you hadn't seen them? And, if they were to boycott the races, how soon would they be forgotten? How long would they stay out anyway since they would be missing those big paychecks. No, Gordon, Wallace or even Richard Petty didn't make stock car racing what it is, they were just able to take advantage of the sport and it paid off for them. If they hadn't been there, someone else would have been.

 

[Kyle48]

This is what really jerks my strings, someone spouting of "their opinion" as if it were fact.
IF it's your opinion, state that! It is YOUR opinion the talent level would drop
The FACT is that over 50 years drivers have come and gone constantly recylcing the talent and there has ALWAYS been a great deal of talent at any given time in NASCAR.

This is a discussion forum, unless I cited exact links to sources one would think the typical reader would understand this is always an opinion. if you can't understand the simple nuance between fact and opinion I bet you get pretty upset by virtually every post you read here.

As far as talent level goes - we're to believe the guys running the 43 vehicles on the track aren't the best driver available to the Cup team owners? You went on a nice little diatribe regarding your business ownership, would you hire a less worthy employee just...beacause? No, no you wouldn't. The talent level would drop, to stand as fact to back up that point I call your attention to every other stock car racing series going right now in competition with NASCAR. If their talent level were as high, they'd have a truly comparable product, and as a good business owner you are, you'd attempt to truly compete and leverage your way into the spotlight. The fact is they don't. The top drivers of stock cars are racing on sundays in NASCAR.

I gaurantee you there's ample talent out there racing today that could step in and make almost as good a showing as these guys have.

Yeah- and they do every week wrecking at the back of the field. Nice thinking.

Besides, as I stated in my last post none of these guys are going anywhere to race for peanuts. It's only people sitting on their couch thinking how smart they are that can't think past the end of their nose that thinks this stuff.

Show ME and everyone that posts here how legally NASCAR is a monopoly. I'm tired of such ignorant unsubstanciated BS trying to be passed off as fact.

It's been pointed out by several people that actually do have knowledge of the laws governing business how NASCAR is NOT in fact a monopoly but a Privately owned and opporated business.

NASCAR manipulates the competitive business environment to facilitate their company as the only feasible, or accessable option. Sometimes through pure cash, other times through subtle intimidation. (See Kentucky Speedway lawsuit, and the subsequent ban of Cup series car testing allowed there; mandated by NASCAR) Since you're so big on opinion and fact - Judges deem law, especially in civil suits, as law (as fact) - everything else is an opinion of the law.

NASCAR is a registered Trade name for a specific business. Period !!!
#1 It is NOT a sport! The sport is auto racing.
#2 It is NOT the only auto racing series in the USA!
#3 It is NOT the only "Stock Car" auto racing series in the USA!
#4 NASCAR DOES race at tracks that "Other" sanctioning bodies of auto
racing hold events at.
#5 NASCAR does NOT penalize its drivers or teams for taking part in other sanctioning bodies racing events.
#6 ISC DOES hold events by other sanctioning bodies at tracks it
owns other than just NASCAR events. ( which it doesn't have to for egalities, but to make more profits for it's shareholders.)
#7 Many big businesses have seperate Corporations set up to deal with the real estate side of their business for purchasing, building and maintanence there of. There is NO difference if that building be a huge shopping center to put a Home Depot in or a race track, they are both the the facilities needed for the type of business each is engaging into.
#8 It is also advised to do this because of legal liabilities. If you get hurt at the shopping center you sue the Corp. that owns it, not Home Depot. If you get hurt at the track you sue ISC, not NASCAR.
#9 ALL other racing sanctioning bodies could buy or build tracks it raced on if it so desired to, no one is stopping them.

...where did anyone even question anything listed on your little list? I looked through the thread twice. It's a nice little list, but bears nothing to what the topic was even about.

The problem with people passing off such misinformation which is really only their opinion as "FACT" is there are many new fans that read all kinds of NASCAR racing boards and don't know the difference and think it's true. Which just spreads the disease of misinformation even further. So I take it upon myself to point out the FACTS and misrepresentations by the uninformed lacking the knowledge to understand the facts.

...how benevolent.

I own my own business.
I registered my Trade Name and logo.
I make all decisions and rules regarding how I run my business.
I decide who I will and who I won't do business with.
I set the hours & days I do business.
I set my prices and if you don't like them you are more than welcome to get someone else to do the service I'm bidding on.
I own my own building in which conduct my business.
I own my own vehicles and equipment.
If I decide to expand I will purchase more buildings to conduct my business in.
I hire and fire my employees as I determine neccessary.
I will not allow anyone to do business using my registered trade name.


Is my business a monoploy?

There is NO difference between my business and NASCAR as far as the legalities governing monopolies

...see my first quoted response. If you intimidate, or manipulate the competitive environment to facilitate your business or interlocking directorates accumulating $1 million or more (of worth) to make a profit, then yes in regards to the Clayton Antitrust act as an amendment to the Sherman Antitrust act, then - yeah, you are. Of course, that's just an opinion of a guy who took business law in college, and the fact would have to be determined by a judge. =)

...although none of this post except my second response has anything to do with the original topic; The drivers need a union, or some type of separate governing body to help with retirement and salary negotiations as a whole. That's my opinion. =)

- k y l e

 

[Kyle48]

Kyle, I'll ask you if you've ever heard of the likes of Tim Brown (not the NFLer), Burt Myers, Jr. Miller, Bobby Hutchens or Pudin Swisher? Unless you live around Winston Salem, you probably haven't with the exception of Bobby Ray who is Richard Childress' chief engineer. However, did you know that he is also a race car driver and drives exclusively NASCAR races? The point is that though Burt Myers has tried out with Jack Roush and that Jr. Miller has actually raced in several Cup races a long time ago, they are the top dogs at several tracks in this area and of course, being so, are famous in their own right. During the season that Bowman Gray Stadium is racing, which is only on Saturday nights, the track seldom fails to fill the stands of over 10,000 people. Not something that a big track on the Cup circuit would brag about, but when it comes to local Saturday night racing, that's a huge number. Guess what, when a Cup race is raced on Saturday night, BGS still fills the stands and most of those people are also avid Cup fans, but they still go to their local races.

I've heard the argument about "the best" vs. "mediocre" many times before, but it's what's in front of the fans that counts. Jimmie Johnson didn't build a national fan base until he finally made the big leagues. Even when he was driving Busch cars, few people knew what he was like. The same for all the other guys with few exceptions. Now you may tell me that you wouldn't watch Cup races without those guys that you think are the best, but how would you know they were the best if you hadn't seen them? And, if they were to boycott the races, how soon would they be forgotten? How long would they stay out anyway since they would be missing those big paychecks. No, Gordon, Wallace or even Richard Petty didn't make stock car racing what it is, they were just able to take advantage of the sport and it paid off for them. If they hadn't been there, someone else would have been.

Buck, I agree. I think people are missing what I'm saying. The dirvers would go race someplace else. I'd still watch NASCAR, but I'd be more apt to watch whatever series they were in as well, cutting NASCAR's profits.

I keep thinking, strike football in the 80's, that was horrible, we still watched it, but the tickets didn't sell. How about the USFL? That sucked. Why does the AFL play in the summer? Because they realize what every other fledgling football league didn't - they don't have the talent level to compete. This coming from a guy that LOVEs, I can't stress that enough LOVES Arena Football. But if it were on up against the NFL, no way I'd be watching.

That's my point - if the drivers would leverage the power they have NASCAR would be forced (and the owners too) to start treating them like the superstars they are, and not a commodity.

- k y l e

 

[Mopardh9]

WOW...... some cool opinions and facts here. I think i stated this in another thread ...the one about what Nascar could do to make things better for next season or maybe it was a different one. Anyway it comes down to the fact that the drivers need to UNIFY....yes a UNION. They have needed this for sometime, all the other major sports are union.....NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB...not sure about soccer, but don't you think ( genralizing here not singling anyone out) that the drivers are pretty sick of getting pushed around. Mikey is always yapping about stuff Nascar should be doing to make the sport better, Spencer does it also, it will just be a matter of time before there is a UNION in Nascar. We the fan will probably absorb some of the costs, but is that a bad thing if the sport is a better product in the long run? BTW this post is just MY OPION ....lol.

 

[dsdjtlts]

Yes, I agree, the drivers need to do something to gain more control over their job, what they race, where they race, the size of the tracks and for sure have lots more input regarding the rules and regulations..I understand there will always be a grey area but Nascar spends to much time and effort expanding the grey area just so it is always "their" interpretation...like the Johnson/Busch deal, they were legal but Nascar acted like they weren't...Nascar is a mess, a total mess!

 

[dsdjtlts]

"I" personally don't like it....but you can't really argue with them, they are right, if you don't take care of yourself who's going to .....

 

[dsdjtlts]

Who the hell is Bob Lipper, anyway?

Believe he is a writer for the Richmond Times Dispatch......

 

[dsdjtlts]

Buck, I agree. I think people are missing what I'm saying. The dirvers would go race someplace else. I'd still watch NASCAR, but I'd be more apt to watch whatever series they were in as well, cutting NASCAR's profits.

I keep thinking, strike football in the 80's, that was horrible, we still watched it, but the tickets didn't sell. How about the USFL? That sucked. Why does the AFL play in the summer? Because they realize what every other fledgling football league didn't - they don't have the talent level to compete. This coming from a guy that LOVEs, I can't stress that enough LOVES Arena Football. But if it were on up against the NFL, no way I'd be watching.

That's my point - if the drivers would leverage the power they have NASCAR would be forced (and the owners too) to start treating them like the superstars they are, and not a commodity.

- k y l e

NASCAR manipulates the competitive business environment to facilitate their company as the only feasible, or accessable option. Sometimes through pure cash, other times through subtle intimidation. (See Kentucky Speedway lawsuit, and the subsequent ban of Cup series car testing allowed there; mandated by NASCAR) Since you're so big on opinion and fact - Judges deem law, especially in civil suits, as law (as fact) - everything else is an opinion of the law.

Oh Kyle you said Nascar & monopoly in the same sentence !!!! AMEN to that. In my OPINION Nascar is a monopoly...just tell me how they get away with it......

 

[boB]

You folks who are saying that the drivers need a union and more say as to where and when they race need to take the time to check on who those drivers are actually working for.

They do not work for NASCAR. The only agreements those drivers have with NASCAR are those they make when they apply for a NASCAR license.

NASCAR does not own any race tracks. NASCAR is a privately owned company which sanctions races for track owners, including ISC, SMI, Dover Downs, and a couple of independent track owners. Not even a hint of monopoly there. So where does all this monopoly talk come from anyhow?

Any drivers' union agreements would have to be between the drivers and their team owners as well as the sponsors as that is who the drivers are under contract to.

As for the arguments about Kentucky Speedway; the owners were told, and it was well reported in the media at the time, that NASCAR had no interest in bringing its top tier series into that market area in the foreseeable future before any construction was started.
Where is there any basis for the lawsuit?
There is none!

 

[bumpzter]

Amen, boB.

 

[Kyle48]

Bob, I love your posts. =)

You folks who are saying that the drivers need a union and more say as to where and when they race need to take the time to check on who those drivers are actually working for.

They do not work for NASCAR. The only agreements those drivers have with NASCAR are those they make when they apply for a NASCAR license.

The water got muddied there with Eagle's post. I understand this, and agree.

NASCAR does not own any race tracks. NASCAR is a privately owned company which sanctions races for track owners, including ISC, SMI, Dover Downs, and a couple of independent track owners. Not even a hint of monopoly there. So where does all this monopoly talk come from anyhow?

NASCAR doesn't own tracks, but ISC does, and the France family (owners of NASCAR) control ISC. That's a conflict of intrest when they're closing tracks, or not returning to tracks and adding ISC owned ones to the schedule or adding additional events. Which they have, and will continue to do until checked.

Any drivers' union agreements would have to be between the drivers and their team owners as well as the sponsors as that is who the drivers are under contract to.

...agreed.

As for the arguments about Kentucky Speedway; the owners were told, and it was well reported in the media at the time, that NASCAR had no interest in bringing its top tier series into that market area in the foreseeable future before any construction was started.
Where is there any basis for the lawsuit?
There is none!

Sure there is. You cannot manipulate the competitive business environment to facilitate yourself (your business) as the only viable option. Which NASCAR has. If there was no basis for the lawsuit, and NASCAR deemed it as such, why ban testing there too? (I understand why, it's a rhetorical question before you go on in four paragraphs why) It's business, it's unfair and illegal, but again NASCAR leveraged their power to cut proceeds to a track that brought a lawsuit against them in an effort to choke off cash that could possibly be used to prolong a lawsuit in which they'll simply out spend the track owners. (Wow, that was a run-on sentence if I ever typed one =) )

Yes, there are other series that can race at that track.
Yes, Kentucky will go on.
Yes, NASCAR will win the lawsuit, but not because they're right, or just, they'll just out spend the KY owners.

- K y l e

 

[Mopardh9]

Good points Kyle, when you come right down to it....the bottom line is that Nascar( France) controls everything and that is wrong IMO. Drivers need to be independent of Nascar and have their own voice.

 

[buckaroo]

The last I'll probably write about this (I reserve the right to correct myself on that) is that while I will argue forever that NASCAR is not a monopoly, I do understand where all those who argue that it is come from, or where their arguments come from. One can argue with great success that NASCAR is very much like Microsoft. Both are huge and have the competition by the ba... er I mean by a wide margin. We have seen what the government feels about Microsoft and what they have required that company to do. I'm sure that in many ways, NASCAR understands this and will do everything they can to placate those who threaten lawsuits against the giant. Witness the Francis Ferko suit and now that we have two races at Texas. I think that is just how this country deals with very successful corporations. You gotta share the wealth. Keeping this in mind, something will change, whether sooner or later. The only thing about this whole thing that involves me, since I don't own any shares of ISC, SMI or any tracks out there, involved with NASCAR or not, I really don't care as long as I can continue to view the races at no more of a cost than it already is for me.

 

[Handymac]

I do not understand how a person who owns a huge house, a jet, a helicopter, a half million dollar bus and several cars can be considered underpaid.

NASCAR is a business, as stated. It is actually a stand alone business---there are really no other competitors. Drivers/owners do not have to accept the pay/deals under the NASCAR rules---they choose to do so for many reasons---chief reason is because the money is good.

NASCAR can---and does on a sometimes hourly basis----change the rules as it sees fit. You don't like the rules/changes----there is the door. Same as in any other sport/business.

I don't like the trend Brainless France is taking----Yup---I know where the door is.

 

[barelypure]

1) The France family is worth ~ $1.6Billion dollars. Let's get that out of the way so people don't go fretting about them missing a meal or something.

2) Drivers are independent contractors; they hire themselves out for the season to the best team possible. Which is the contract they sign with the owner. Each driver negotiates his own financial arrangement with the owner of his race team, so no two deals are alike. However, all drivers receive income from three basic sources: (1) racing, (2) personal endorsements, and (3) licensing revenue. Some drivers' contracts include clauses that compensate them for awards they would have won but didn't because their car owner doesn't carry a particular decal.

3) Salaries range between $500,000 and $800,000 a year, plus 30 to 50 percent of the winnings. In a season, a top ten driver will win between $1 million and $3 million for the team. The driver's take, on top of his salary, could be anywhere from $300,000 to $1.5 million.
An example is Casey Atwood who received an annual salary of $240,000 and other lucrative benefits as a NASCAR Busch Series driver, according to a lawsuit filed against his former team. In addition to his salary from FitzBradshaw Racing, Atwood also received 40% of the team's winnings, which last season totaled $629,070 for the 29 races in which Atwood competed.

Remember Brook got $15M in her divorce settlement with Jeff. And even after all that I don't think he's missed many meals. So while they are not paid like other top athletes (NFL, NBA, ML they do OK for someone that drives around in circles...