ETHANOL

R

robbybee

Guest
NA$$CAR began using an Ethanol Blend Fuel in 2011. In 2012 it seems that American Ethanol has stepped up their propaganda campaign in an effort to convince Americans that Ethanol is the motor fuel of the future for America. I'm not so sure about that, based upon the fact that it takes more energy to create a gallon of Ethanol than can be created in the burning of a gallon of Ethanol. And the fact that American Taxpayers are on the hook for an $8 Billion annual subsidy for the American Ethanol Industry does not make me feel all warm and fuzzy about Ethanol.

THIS NA$$CAR fan is ready to raise the flag! :bsflag:

What say you?
 
http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2011/01/ethanol-lobby-finds-friends-foes.html

This bipartisan group of 15 senators signed a letter in late November demanding an extension of U.S. ethanol subsidies, and they have received notable campaign contributions during the past six years from pro-ethanol companies and interest groups.

These senators each collected, on average, $5,000 from bioengineering and agricultural chemical company Monsanto, $4,100 from farming giant Archer Daniels Midland, $1,600 from the National Corn Growers Association, $1,200 from ethanol producer POET LLC and $200 a piece from Growth Energy and the Iowa Renewable Fuels Association. (You may download a spreadsheet showing the Center's calculations of these totals and the itemized totals for all senators signing either letter here: EthanolMoney2010.xls)

Sens. Kit Bond (R-Mo.), Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) and Ben Nelson (D-Neb.), who all signed onto Grassley's letter, have each received at least $20,000 to their campaign committees and leadership PACs from these same ethanol-supporting political action committees since January 2005, according to the Center's research.

And Sens. John Thune (R-S.D.) and Kent Conrad (D-N.D.), who likewise signed the pro-ethanol letter, each received between $10,000 and $15,000 from these interests as well.

American sewer politics at work.
 
FlFlash said:
Well at least the goverment is throwing away Our money in Our country instead of some ****hole third world country who's people will kill our soldiers over a book.
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What is going on with your avitar .Have you been neglecting your back yard pool?
 
FenderBumper said:
http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2011/01/ethanol-lobby-finds-friends-foes.html

This bipartisan group of 15 senators signed a letter in late November demanding an extension of U.S. ethanol subsidies, and they have received notable campaign contributions during the past six years from pro-ethanol companies and interest groups.

These senators each collected, on average, $5,000 from bioengineering and agricultural chemical company Monsanto, $4,100 from farming giant Archer Daniels Midland, $1,600 from the National Corn Growers Association, $1,200 from ethanol producer POET LLC and $200 a piece from Growth Energy and the Iowa Renewable Fuels Association. (You may download a spreadsheet showing the Center's calculations of these totals and the itemized totals for all senators signing either letter here: EthanolMoney2010.xls)

Sens. Kit Bond (R-Mo.), Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) and Ben Nelson (D-Neb.), who all signed onto Grassley's letter, have each received at least $20,000 to their campaign committees and leadership PACs from these same ethanol-supporting political action committees since January 2005, according to the Center's research.

And Sens. John Thune (R-S.D.) and Kent Conrad (D-N.D.), who likewise signed the pro-ethanol letter, each received between $10,000 and $15,000 from these interests as well.

American sewer politics at work.
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This is typical of how things work, that's why this country is so messed up. Ethanol has been a joke from the get go.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
This looks like a great thread for the Podium. ;)
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Yeah... I understand. You want it moved. Point taken.
Hey! Here's an idea...ignore the thread if'n ya don't like it!

SunocoE15EthanolBlendStupidAss****Fuel is part of everyday life in NA$$CAR! We should be able to discuss the merits here, don'tcha think?
 
robbybee said:
Yeah... I understand. You want it moved. Point taken.
Hey! Here's an idea...ignore the thread if'n ya don't like it!

SunocoE15EthanolBlendStupidAss****Fuel is part of everyday life in NA$$CAR! We should be able to discuss the merits here, don'tcha think?
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I agree. NASCAR made it a key part of their product. We talk about their rules, enforcement, etc, why not their BS?

Did I just repeat myself? ;)
 
All I know is my mechanic hates the stuff he showed me the inside of an engine that ran on it and one that didn't. The one that ran on ethenol was black on the inside, the one that never ran on the crap was nice and clean. He says when he has to overhaul an engine that ran on ethenol he has to do twice as much work cleaning the internal parts before putting the engine back together.
 
blue92 said:
All I know is my mechanic hates the stuff he showed me the inside of an engine that ran on it and one that didn't. The one that ran on ethenol was black on the inside, the one that never ran on the crap was nice and clean. He says when he has to overhaul an engine that ran on ethenol he has to do twice as much work cleaning the internal parts before putting the engine back together.
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I've heard the same type of stuff from some mechanics I know also. There is no need for ethanol, it is cost prohibitive, it is all political and Nascar got on the bandwagon with it.
 
While I agree with all of your comments, I wonder if the Nascar engine builders might not be the only ones who are capable of making this fuel work.
 
ted@economy said:
While I agree with all of your comments, I wonder if the Nascar engine builders might not be the only ones who are capable of making this fuel work.
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It's the gov't NOX rules that screw things up with ethanol. Dragsters and race cars don't have to worry about it, so they can use high compression and aggressive timing advance, 2 things that ethanol benefit from.
 
FenderBumper said:
It's the gov't NOX rules that screw things up with ethanol. Dragsters and race cars don't have to worry about it, so they can use high compression and aggressive timing advance, 2 things that ethanol benefit from.
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I don't know what you're talking about <sarcasm>

(36 degree of timing on 15.28:1 compression port injected methanol)

We buy methanol for $128 per 55 gallon drum, and burn 1.5 gallons per run.

on the carburetor, sunoco 112 was $365 for a 55 gal drum and we burned about 3/4 of a gallon per run.

128/55 = 2.33 per gallon * 1.5 = $3.49 per pass

365/55 = 6.63 per gallon * 0.75 = $4.98 per pass

as far as cleanliness, might be the difference in ethanol and Methanol, but when we tore ours down, all we had to contend with was some caked oil on top of the pistons, and it came off in the solvent tank. Everything else was clean as day it all went together.
 
Magnethead said:
I don't know what you're talking about <sarcasm>
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I'm sure a lot here don't. Even though it's just 1 extra letter, Methanol and Ethanol are 2 entirely different fuels. Ethanol contains more energy than Methanol, but both have less than petro fuels. Alcohol releases a much higher percentage of it's energy, so it evens things out with petrol. With a purpose built engine, you can dump more fuel into each cylinder, which is an advantage in racing.

Flex fuel engines have special coatings to combat corrosive contaminates in alcohol fuels, and high quality racing Methanol and Ethanol have anti corrosion inhibitors added. I'm not sure they do this with Ethanol / gas mixes at the pump.
 
ted@economy said:
While I agree with all of your comments, I wonder if the Nascar engine builders might not be the only ones who are capable of making this fuel work.
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Race car engines don't ever see 150,000 miles on them, they are broken down and rebuilt all the time so the engines aren't together long enough to see the damage a 150,000 engine sees.
 
FenderBumper said:
Flex fuel engines have special coatings to combat corrosive contaminates in alcohol fuels, and high quality racing Methanol and Ethanol have anti corrosion inhibitors added. I'm not sure they do this with Ethanol / gas mixes at the pump.
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All of the racers in our area buy industrial methanol. Not sure if it has corrosion inhibitors or not (keep in mind almost all racecars now are iron block/aluminum piston/aluminum head) but nobody's found a justification for an extra $50 between industrial and race methanol. As fast as we burn it, it wouldn't be in the drum or engine long enough to know. We burned through an entire drum in 3 outings. We keep 20 gallons with us at the track. Some people take the drum to the track with them.

Didn't realize E and M were so different
 
There's been a few studies done on fuel components failing faster when using E. I would think the main concern would be particle contaminents because of how E and M are made.
 
FenderBumper said:
There's been a few studies done on fuel components failing faster when using E. I would think the main concern would be particle contaminents because of how E and M are made.
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...and the fact that water vapor is much more likely to contaminate alcohol fuels - and water is the biggest enemy to internal combustion engines.
 
Forty five years ago, all of our farm machines were run on propane and we also had our cars and pickups converted to run on porpane as well as gas. The reason we had the cars and pickups converted was because of the tax on farm fuels, thus we could get propane at about 9 cents a gallon. Since that time, I've not heard of anyone using propane as fuel for automobiles and I wonder why. I can't say how the engines looked after so many miles of running on propane, but we never had any engine problems either with the farm machinery or autos. BTW, the car would still run when the propane was very low but would lose a lot of power. But as I mentioned, you could switch to gas any time.
 
GM had fleet vehicles availible in the early 90's ( S-10's and full size vans ) that ran on LP, liquid propane. Some of the larger cities bought and used them for several years with 0 problems. I know Atlanta Ga. , Jacksonville Fl. and Orlando Fl. had several of them.
Unfourtunately the infrastructure was never built up to allow use by the general public and the Feds decided that they where Unsafe due to the Hi-pressure tanks. The Feds are now dueing the same thing to GM's hybrid car and fuel celll development programs.
Sometimes I beleive if the goverment would stay out of things we'd be better off :laugh:
 
FlFlash said:
GM had fleet vehicles availible in the early 90's ( S-10's and full size vans ) that ran on LP, liquid propane. Some of the larger cities bought and used them for several years with 0 problems. I know Atlanta Ga. , Jacksonville Fl. and Orlando Fl. had several of them.
Unfourtunately the infrastructure was never built up to allow use by the general public and the Feds decided that they where Unsafe due to the Hi-pressure tanks. The Feds are now dueing the same thing to GM's hybrid car and fuel celll development programs.
Sometimes I beleive if the goverment would stay out of things we'd be better off :laugh:
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When you get older you realize that you can't fix stuff just by passing new laws or rules.It's like with the jet dryer thing , everyone immediately tries to think of a new rule.
 
ted@economy said:
When you get older you realize that you can't fix stuff just by passing new laws or rules.It's like with the jet dryer thing , everyone immediately tries to think of a new rule.
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Rule makers need job security too :laugh:
HA, you can always tell when I get wound up over a subject....my spelling go's to hell.
 
FlFlash said:
GM had fleet vehicles availible in the early 90's ( S-10's and full size vans ) that ran on LP, liquid propane. Some of the larger cities bought and used them for several years with 0 problems. I know Atlanta Ga. , Jacksonville Fl. and Orlando Fl. had several of them.
Unfourtunately the infrastructure was never built up to allow use by the general public and the Feds decided that they where Unsafe due to the Hi-pressure tanks. The Feds are now dueing the same thing to GM's hybrid car and fuel celll development programs.
Sometimes I beleive if the goverment would stay out of things we'd be better off :laugh:
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Hmmm, that's interesting. I know the hazards of using LP for fuel, I've seen the aftermath of static electricity blowing up a smaller LP tank. But I've not heard anything about anything like that in the last 40 some odd years. I do however, put that in the same category as using ethenol. When the use of ethenol became something to use, auto manufacturers voided any car owners who used gasohol in their vehicles. After a few years, those voids were removed and car owners who used gasohol had the same warrantees accepted. Just my own suspicions, but I just wonder how much the oil community had to do with that? Just something to think about...if you and I were to develop a system that would get a car 200 miles per gallon, how much do you think we could sell our system for? Could we live like a shiek or what?
 
buckaroo said:
Hmmm, that's interesting. I know the hazards of using LP for fuel, I've seen the aftermath of static electricity blowing up a smaller LP tank. But I've not heard anything about anything like that in the last 40 some odd years. I do however, put that in the same category as using ethenol. When the use of ethenol became something to use, auto manufacturers voided any car owners who used gasohol in their vehicles. After a few years, those voids were removed and car owners who used gasohol had the same warrantees accepted. Just my own suspicions, but I just wonder how much the oil community had to do with that? Just something to think about...if you and I were to develop a system that would get a car 200 miles per gallon, how much do you think we could sell our system for? Could we live like a shiek or what?
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Just think about all the friends you would make in the oil industry.Can't seem to find that sarcasm icon, but you get the jist.;)
 
The trash trucks that comb my neighborhood each Monday also run on CNG!
 
FlFlash said:
Well at least the goverment is throwing away Our money in Our country instead of some ****hole third world country who's people will kill our soldiers over a book.
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lol,lest i ant alone.
 
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