F1: Italian Grand Prix
- Thread starter FLRacingFan
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Doc Austin
Back From The Dead
Practice looks lie status quo. At least the Force India guys haven't taken each other out yet, but then again, it's still early.
Kiante
Team Owner
Incredible **** right there.
Hamilton with a new record, Stroll and Ocon having phenomenal performances, and Red Bull were all fantastic.
Stroll especially, people have wanted his head. Ever since Baku, his uptick in performance is there. Just his race pace needs to improve.
Once again, Renault you missed out on Ocon. You guys kept Palmer instead, great job.
Hamilton with a new record, Stroll and Ocon having phenomenal performances, and Red Bull were all fantastic.
Stroll especially, people have wanted his head. Ever since Baku, his uptick in performance is there. Just his race pace needs to improve.
Once again, Renault you missed out on Ocon. You guys kept Palmer instead, great job.
Doc Austin
Back From The Dead
Wow. That was fun. Sure hope it rains tomorrow.
donthaveanickname
Team Owner
I hate it when they retire cars for no reason with 2 laps to go.
Jorge De Guzman
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Yawn.
Marcingak
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The announcers mentioned something about swapping out the transmission so they don't get a penalty next race.
FLRacingFan
Team Owner
This is why grid penalties need to go. I think Brawn even said so earlier this week. That and DRS.
Doc Austin
Back From The Dead
If Ferrari doesn't find a lot of speed, this championship is over. They can't keep giving away 36 a race to Mercedes and think they have a realistic chance.
Can't wait for next year. Boring races and ugly cars are going to be really compelling to watch.
Can't wait for next year. Boring races and ugly cars are going to be really compelling to watch.
What a pathetic excuse for a race
donthaveanickname
Team Owner
The German announcers mentioned that as well, but I think ist pretty stupid giving an advantage to cars that intentionally retire.
How much overtakes without DRS did we have this season? Maybe 10?
Kiante
Team Owner
It's harder as is to pass, even with DRS in creating all that turbulent air these cars make.
Doc Austin
Back From The Dead
We could see that coming with the big wings they are running this way. The entire formula needs a massive overhaul.
As far as requiring multiple tire compounds and DTS, the moiré phony stuff you introduce to "spice up the show," the more you kill the real wheel to wheel racing.
FLRacingFan
Team Owner
37 total at Spa and 38 total at Italy, and with the huge DRS straights I'd be willing to bet most of them were "assisted" overtakes.
At some of these places with the faster cars you almost can't even get into DRS range anymore. Guys are stalling out at more like 1.5 seconds back.
FLRacingFan
Team Owner
And the tires totally suck too. Seems like F1 and Pirelli can never find a middle ground between tires exploding every race or boring one-stop races. This year has way too much of the latter.
Hotrod
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Quali was intriguing but the race was kinda a brick. Fun watching Daniel Ricciardo
come forward through the pack as well as Max V. after his earlier problems.
I am glad Vettle and Lew are at least talking a bit after the race. Nothing worse to
me than an uncomfortable podium after a race. Really glad 1 Ferrari was up there for the tifosi.
All in all, F1 is just so much thrilling for me as a fan. Still a few questions to be answered
for next years driving seats.
come forward through the pack as well as Max V. after his earlier problems.
I am glad Vettle and Lew are at least talking a bit after the race. Nothing worse to
me than an uncomfortable podium after a race. Really glad 1 Ferrari was up there for the tifosi.
All in all, F1 is just so much thrilling for me as a fan. Still a few questions to be answered
for next years driving seats.
How many passes for position did the leader make on the track ?
Doc Austin
Back From The Dead
Doc Austin
Back From The Dead
Actually, I had to look it up, but it's really 84 lead changes in the 2013 Indianapolis 500
https://doctorindy.com/tag/lead-changes/
Ok, I took the outer limits best case scenario, but I don't think there is any argument that Formula One really should be as competitive as Indycar is. Right now I believe we have eight (maybe even 9) different winners this year alone, which doesn't include former winners Tony Kaanan, Marco Andretti, Charlie Kimball , Ryan Hunter Reay, and Ed Carpenter. That's 16 potential winners in the field. I don't think anyone is going to argue that Formula One is anywhere near that competitive.
So about that number in the F-1 race ? I watched the crap show ........ I believe the number is ZERO
Doc Austin
Back From The Dead
Jacques Villeneuve hit the nail on the head when he said (paraphrasing) that the more you do to improve the show, the more you ruin the racing, and that's exactly what formula one has done to itself. The are are too complex, too expensive and rely too much on gimmicks like DRS, and and tires that are designed to degrade at a fake rate. Take the DRS off and give them a tire that will go the distance with a little care. Pit stops are boring and break up the racing. Make them pass on the track and not in the pits.
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The scream of the v-8s and v-10s turning amazing rpms made the show bearable ... but barely
Doc Austin
Back From The Dead
Like, who gives a sh*t about hybrids anyway? You could accomplish the same thing with a big V8. The cars are too complicated, and that just leads to all these inane grid penalties..
An engine and a gearbox is quite enough to suit me ........ I have never been a fan of the hybrid crap
gnomesayin
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I respectfully disagree. Agreed that the current F1 product as a racing series is poor. However, I don't believe the biggest fault is the power units. For F1 to have genuine relevance, it should maintain some connection to actual cutting edge automotive development and technology. I don't understand gut hatred of "hybrids". There are plenty of places to watch big old-fashioned V8s race, including in my personal favorite forms of racing.
F1 doesn't need to be a nostalgia show to produce decent action. They need to radically rethink the aero and tire regulations.
Doc Austin
Back From The Dead
It's certainly a huge contributing factor.
I don't think that matters because almost all the stuff they have banned are now on road cars. AWD, Traction control, CVT transmissions, anti lock brakes, stability systems........... all of those things were outlawed, so Formula One in a lot of ways isn't even as advanced a your average Nissan Sentra.
I think a lot of people really loved the old high revving F1 V8s, and that's where the hatred is coming from.
I hate the hybrids because they make the cars more complex and expensive. I especially hate them in endurance racing because they are so complex that a privateer team could never run one. If you take a look at Lemans this year, a much, much, much less expensive and less complicated P2 car very nearly stole the show because even Porsche couldn't keep a car together for 24 hours. I believe the only P2 cars that didn't finish were due to accidents. Complicated cars break, and simple ones run like freight trains.
Hybrids are also built on the phony premise they save energy and pollute less, both proven to be lies. For example, it takes more energy to make and dispose of a hybrid battery than it saves over the life of the car, and the same with pollution.
No, Formula One needs to e real instead of a "spiced up show." That's the main thing.
F1 needs to be fast as hell, which they are getting close to, and they need to be more attractive with less tack on aero pieces. They also need to race well and that gets back to simplier aero rules....... small two element wings and medium sized tunnels
F1's biggest problem is that it has become phony in order to "spice up the show." I don't even need to go into what's wrong with DRS. We would not even need DRS if the drivers weren't chopping, blocking and swerving all over the road like drunken zombies, but that's another discussion entirely.
In the US, half the telecast is the commentators talking about tires. I know Pirelli has to get their exposure, but come on. It's too damm much. In fact, what exactly does Pirreli get out of it when half the field goes on TV and says things like "the tires were finished after two laps." "we didn't have any grip" "The tires didn't switch on," "the tire performance window is too narrow," and on and on and on. None of that makes me want to go out and buy Pirellis. Conversely, when endurance drivers get out of the car and talk about how they could triple stint their Michelins, that does make me want Michelins instead.
The whole tire thing is phony because in an honest race you would never design a tire to degrade at a certain rate to assure you have pit stops. Instead of making a tire that will go fast for as long as possible, Pirelli is forced to produce a tire that purposely craps out in order to "spice up the show." Since that is apparently less difficult to hit instead of building something that works, every race is all about the shortcomings of the tire.
They need to go back to a tire that will go the distance with a little care. Pit stops are not exciting, no matter how much they try to tell they are. All that can happen in a pitstop is something bad. Unprotected people can get run over, all while the FIA tells us how important safety is. That reason alone is enough to eliminate them, or at least cut down the number of stops. Pit stops also break up the racing. You don't have to pass someone when you can undercut them. I don't believe we have had an on track pass for the lead all year (except maybe Barcelona), and that';s because they don't need to pass each other when they can do it with pit strategy. Now more than ever the race is less in the drivers hands and more in the control of the computers in the pits.
gnomesayin
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Eh. This is what I suspected was at work, that for many it is a sort of dismissive political / cultural reaction. I could go way off topic and discuss all of the nuances of that issue, and it is a thorny one with many considerations. For instance, choosing to drive a 10 year-old vehicle of any kind is a "greener choice" in the abstract than buying a new Prius or Tesla. However, the premise you cite is both largely discredited and not static and permanent - that is to say that battery technology and cost is rapidly evolving and changing, and there has been a large decrease in battery costs and "greening" of electrical power sources over the past 5-7 years.
Anyway, I love me some good old-fashioned loud push rod V8s roaring around a race track. I love the smell of burning racing fuel. I also think new automotive innovation is interesting, and KERS is a fascinating technology that goes way beyond just using a battery to power a car. I believe that F1 as the world's elite series (in theory and perception) has opportunity that other racing series do not. They can afford to remain at the forefront of automotive technology, and this can draw further interest. They can do that while still producing decent racing, and I think 80% of how poorly the current cars race is due to aero problems.
This is true on the surface, but it's the sanctioning body's job to impose limitations and a formula that produce racing people will watch. In an "honest race", no constructor would be stopped from designing absolute maximum horsepower, downforce, and driving aids into the car. To limit those is to artificially enhance the show. Generally I share your desire to watch real, honest, merit-based racing that isn't overly tricked up. I hate the concept of DRS. But this is all relative, and there is a balance to maintain between 'pure' racing and competitive racing.
I agree with many of your other points and find your perspective interesting.
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Doc Austin
Back From The Dead
Actually I have a 17 year old car and I don't want a new one strictly because the new ones are so complicated. I don't care one way other about my carbon footprint. Leonardo Decaprio makes a bigger impact with his private jet on the way to accept his friend of the planet award than I could in an entire lifetime, so I'm going to listen to any celebrities who tell me I am wrecking the planet.
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Doc Austin
Back From The Dead
Sorry for the multiple posts. Something weird is going on d the forum will only allow a couple of paragraphs.
I find Formula E to be promising, but they still can't get the things through a race on a single battery, and still can't quickly recharge them fast enough to do it on a pit stop.
The sad thing is we have known since the 1973 oil crisis that we were going to have an energy problem, right when NASA was winding the Apollo program down. We had all the resources and the country's best minds in one place, and we wasted it. Can you imagine what electric cars would look like today with 40 years of NASA research and development? You probably could not even buy an internal combustion powered car any more.
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Lipos have certainly gotten cheaper, but disposal is still a problem. I usually stick a knife in them and let them burn. They only burn once, so to me that's the only way. Of course, then you create a carbon footprint (or whatever bull**** term they are using this week), so you can never win with the eco Nazis.
LMP1 already has hybrid technology and the cost has driven the class into oblivion. No one cares enough to show up, because the cars are so complex and expensive. I read today there are no serious efforts for any new F1 teams, and I have to believe if you wanted to start a team and go racing you'de be much better off in IMSA.
That and the driving standards. The only time you can even get a pass done is on the straight with DRS, and then the driver in front can swerve on you at the last second and give you the choice of backing off or getting killed. They have needed to address that problem for years. You can't race someone you can't trust, and that's why there is so little blood and guts racing in F1 any more. Hell, even the Force India guys were on course to kill each other before the team broke it up. How ridiculous that you can put your teammate into the wall at 200 mph twice in the same race and the stewards don't even see it?
I don't mean honest in that sense. I mean honest in that the cars and the rules were not designed to spice up the show. DRS and the ridiculous tire game are so phony they have wrecked the racing. Phony in racing is always bad. Yes, I know Indycar has push to pass and option tires, and I hate those too.
You can't have the cars doing 300mph and flying into the stands You also can't let the technology get so out of hand that it costs $200 million to compete which LMP1 learned the hard way. The only way is to give them a framework in which to work, a formula, so to speak. If we had left the rules alone in 1973, today we'd be lapping Indianapolis at 300mph and any car that wrecked would land in Muncie.
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I agree that it's a tricky balance, but I believe most competition will level itself if you control costs, keep the teams healthy and lay off the phony gimmicks.
Thanks, and back at you.
I find Formula E to be promising, but they still can't get the things through a race on a single battery, and still can't quickly recharge them fast enough to do it on a pit stop.
The sad thing is we have known since the 1973 oil crisis that we were going to have an energy problem, right when NASA was winding the Apollo program down. We had all the resources and the country's best minds in one place, and we wasted it. Can you imagine what electric cars would look like today with 40 years of NASA research and development? You probably could not even buy an internal combustion powered car any more.
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Lipos have certainly gotten cheaper, but disposal is still a problem. I usually stick a knife in them and let them burn. They only burn once, so to me that's the only way. Of course, then you create a carbon footprint (or whatever bull**** term they are using this week), so you can never win with the eco Nazis.
First, I think F1 needs to make up it's mind if it wants to be the world driving championship where the best driver most often wins, or if they want to be a technology series that produces vast disparity in the competitive balance. The later is what we have now, so I don't think the driver's championship has any credibility. The gap between the top three teams and the midfield is so vast that even Alonso can't get a podium, so how can that be a drivers championship?
LMP1 already has hybrid technology and the cost has driven the class into oblivion. No one cares enough to show up, because the cars are so complex and expensive. I read today there are no serious efforts for any new F1 teams, and I have to believe if you wanted to start a team and go racing you'de be much better off in IMSA.
That and the driving standards. The only time you can even get a pass done is on the straight with DRS, and then the driver in front can swerve on you at the last second and give you the choice of backing off or getting killed. They have needed to address that problem for years. You can't race someone you can't trust, and that's why there is so little blood and guts racing in F1 any more. Hell, even the Force India guys were on course to kill each other before the team broke it up. How ridiculous that you can put your teammate into the wall at 200 mph twice in the same race and the stewards don't even see it?
I don't mean honest in that sense. I mean honest in that the cars and the rules were not designed to spice up the show. DRS and the ridiculous tire game are so phony they have wrecked the racing. Phony in racing is always bad. Yes, I know Indycar has push to pass and option tires, and I hate those too.
You can't have the cars doing 300mph and flying into the stands You also can't let the technology get so out of hand that it costs $200 million to compete which LMP1 learned the hard way. The only way is to give them a framework in which to work, a formula, so to speak. If we had left the rules alone in 1973, today we'd be lapping Indianapolis at 300mph and any car that wrecked would land in Muncie.
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I agree that it's a tricky balance, but I believe most competition will level itself if you control costs, keep the teams healthy and lay off the phony gimmicks.
Thanks, and back at you.