FORD:Stop the bleeding

97forever

97forever

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Odd how the usual topic of 'inequality' among car brands has been a non-issue with the season long Chevy cake-walk.Equally odd is how the LACK of whining/complaining from the Ford teams hasn't been mentioned either.

Dont misunderstand:

Reduced numbers---Roush is toting the note---and an aging car platform are due in large part for the reduced Ford victory total this season.I would think the defection of Penske to Dodge has hurt a lot more than Ford originally thought.

But 'parity'?It seems the term only applies when the Ford products are dominating(as has been the case more-so than not in recent seasons)nary a mention of the lack of parity on the rare occasions that Chevy seems to be dominating.And Dodge?An x-factor in my book.Better than a GM yeah----but nothing I would write home about.If you ARE a Mopar fan then spend a lot of time thanking God for Ryan Newman.

So where does this leave fans of the winningest single brand in Nascar history(Dont believe the Chevy commercials---it's still Ford)?

It leaves us wishing FOMOCO would take a few steps to get it's race teams back on track----and Nascar be damned.Here,for my nickle,is what I would do:

1.Swallow the Wood Brothers.Yeah,I love 'em too,but as a part of Roush Racing proper they could contribute a bit more results.The motorcraft brand name would be a boost as well.

2.Get the engineers out of Dearborne and down in the Yates shop fast.The 'collapse' of Jarrett has hurt Ford as much as anything has.Bring RYR back no matter what the cost.

3.Get Bill Davis Racing on the Ford team.Keep Ward and shuffle in a lot of factory support.AS for Bill's second team?Made to order for Scott Riggs.Give em Fords and get Riggs signed at once.(Get rid of whoever the hell drives that car now.)

4.GET THE NUMBER 15 BACK ON A BUD MOORE ENGINEERING car.Bring Bud's old team back even if Bud is too old to run things now.Finance it well as a reward of a half-century of brand loyalty,put Tim Brewer as crew chief and drop Jason Rudd or Shelby Howard in it.Then watch folks ask Kyle(Busch) who?


5.Create a strong BGN team again.The Roush #60 has too strong of a heritage to just be ignored.

Just a few starting points all with tongue in cheek,but something needs done until the arrival of the new Taurus platform next year.(Which should be the best new race car in recent memory,btw.)

In a season when Nemechek and T.Labonte are running better than Jarrett and Martin----there is a fly in the buttermilk somewhere.To paraphrase Felix Sabates from a few years ago:'Those superior cars are making superstars out of mid-pack drivers'.Yeah Felix....all coming back to you now isnt it?
 
The Ford camp is hurting a bit this year, part or perhaps even mostly of their own creation.

The Yates teams got on track early, lost the handle, and now are actually getting the handle back. Even so they still manage to find new ways to finish poorly or if unable to find a new way, revisit the older tried and true methods. Such as Sadler hitting the wall with dem good cars on more than one occasion, DJ getting taken out by someone, cutting tires, and so forth. Not much anyone can do about most of these, and other teams (notably perhaps Gibbs) are going through the same deal this season.

Roush is doing pretty well. Some engine failures and bad luck as well. But Matt is solidly leading the points chase and Kurt trails only Ryan in the win column. Burton is getting stronger by the week. Biffle is rocking along with a fast car, a win, and the potential for many more good finishes. MM is just plain struggling.

The Wood Bros are coming off two consecutive excellent runs. They have a new chassis which seems very good on the Richmond - NHIS type tracks. Perhaps more on the way.

While Blue Oval fans are not enjoying stellar results in all aspects, the overall performance of the teams is pretty good. Results are not as good as the teams right now.
 
Here's my take on things. Remember last year when GM was struggling? What do you bet a lot of the GM teams were splittiing their time getting the new car ready and try to race at t he same time. Result: They struggled at the tracks last year, but came out the the gate pretty good this year...and managed to keep their momentum up.

I think Ford is weak this year for the obvious reasons mentioned PLUS the distraction that I bet many of the teams are experiencing helping with next years car.

One last thought, though. NASCAR did manage to add one screw up to the package this year in my opinion. By all accounts they were way late getting the body relocation info to the Ford and Mopar teams before the season began. I'm sure that created a hole that is probably a little deeper than some might think.
 
Anyone have any info on the new chassis/body that Ricky Rudd has been running and how that differs from all the other chassis/bodies?

It has recorded 2nd and 3rd place finishes, seems like it has some promise. Is this tied in with Ford's future chassis/body?
 
The Yates teams got on track early, lost the handle, and now are actually getting the handle back. Even so they still manage to find new ways to finish poorly or if unable to find a new way, revisit the older tried and true methods. Such as Sadler hitting the wall with dem good cars on more than one occasion, DJ getting taken out by someone, cutting tires, and so forth. Not much anyone can do about most of these, and other teams (notably perhaps Gibbs) are going through the same deal this season.

If the 88 had some performace and would qual. up front, it wouldn't have these problems.
 
I think that it is kind of hard to complain about Ford's ability to compete. With Matt so far out in the lead it would tend to show that the ability is there, but maybe the other teams haven't caught up or just plain bad luck.
 
I think it lies on the fact that Roush is the only major team with Ford backing.

Chevy has Childess, Hendrick, DEI...

Dodge has Ganassi, Penske...
 
Actually,I considered Matt's run away with the title before I ever posted this.In my opinion,this would seem to be more indicative of the current point sytem's rewarding consistency over accomplishment rather than a manufacturer issue.In other words,consistent is consistent-----regardless of brand.

And I agree with RobbyG on this:Ford is a one horse ride right now.Roush is all they have currently.Yates needs to get back in the picture in the worst sort of way.Along with bringing another power player on board......BRING BACK B>M>E!!
 
Originally posted by 97forever@Sep 17 2003, 05:04 PM
Actually,I considered Matt's run away with the title before I ever posted this.In my opinion,this would seem to be more indicative of the current point sytem's rewarding consistency over accomplishment rather than a manufacturer issue.In other words,consistent is consistent-----regardless of brand.

And I agree with RobbyG on this:Ford is a one horse ride right now.Roush is all they have currently.Yates needs to get back in the picture in the worst sort of way.Along with bringing another power player on board......BRING BACK B>M>E!!
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97...I think that the #17 team is sort of the blacksheep to the Roush team...and the fact that the #97 team shares a home with the #17 team, bodes well for the #97 team.

I've seen things out of the #17 team that the #6 or #99 team with crew cheif wouldn't try...or WOULD try. Robbie was the person who gave Matt the call in his Busch ride before Mark Martin 'discovered' them. Jimmy Fenning, Kurt's crew cheif, is from WI too. He worked with guys like Alan Kulwicki, Mark & Rusty in ASA...so he is knows what the word 'team' means like Matt & Robbie.
 
BTW...in the 2002 Winston...when the #99 & Frank Stodard decided to pit on the last lap of the open & cross the finish line on pit road. That was Robbie Reiser's idea and he decided he didn't want to chance it because of what Nascar might do. To show you what teamwork does...he let e/o know what he was thinking & Frankie was the one who had the 'cohones' to chance it.
 
How good does ford look here?

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Posted on Tue, Sep. 16, 2003

2003 Winston Cup pole winners
The Associated Press

1. Ryan Newman, 7
2. Bobby Labonte, 4

3. Jeff Gordon, 3

4. Dave Blaney, 1

4. Elliott Sadler, 1

4. Kevin Harvick, 1

4. Jeff Green, 1

4. Jimmie Johnson, 1

4. Terry Labonte, 1

4. Jeremy Mayfield, 1

4. Steve Park, 1

4. Boris Said, 1

4. Tony Stewart, 1

4. Mike Skinner, 1
 
and here





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Posted on Tue, Sep. 16, 2003

2003 Winston Cup miles led leaders
The Associated Press

1. Ryan Newman 1181.27
2. Jeff Gordon 1103.34

3. Dale Earnhardt, Jr 1051.51

4. Tony Stewart 915.47

5. Jimmie Johnson 585.76

6. Kevin Harvick 558.51

7. Matt Kenseth 539.81

8. Kurt Busch 526.70

9. Bobby Labonte 520.58

10. Rusty Wallace 401.10
 
and hereStatistics











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Posted on Tue, Sep. 16, 2003

2003 Winston Cup laps led leaders
The Associated Press

1. Jeff Gordon 1206 (17)
2. Ryan Newman 890 (18)

3. Dale Earnhardt, Jr 804 (17)

4. Kurt Busch 529 (14)

5. Tony Stewart 511 (11)

6. Bobby Labonte 422 (13)

7. Kevin Harvick 370 (14)

8. Matt Kenseth 352 (15)

9. Jimmie Johnson 335 (13)

10. Rusty Wallace 318 (6)

Some damn good luck has the 17 leading the so called championship
 
And really, it's the drivers championship. Anybody have the manufacturers points?
 
Here it is and it's not a hell'ev a lot better for ford.
I look at this and I wonder how ford is where it's at.

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Posted on Tue, Sep. 16, 2003

2003 Winston Cup manufacturer standings
The Associated Press

Chevrolet 192 (13)
Ford 165 (7)

Dodge 142 (6)

Pontiac 95 (1)
 
They could care less about winning a pole race wins is what counts.

Michael Waltrip - 1
Dale Jarrett - 1
Matt Kenseth - 1
Bobby Labonte - 1
Ricky Craven - 1
Kurt Busch - 4
Robbie Gordon - 2
Greg Biffle - 1
Ryan Newman - 6
Jimmie Johnson - 3
Tony Stewart - 1
Kevin Harvick - 1
Terry Labonte - 1
Jeff Gordon - 1
Joe Nemecheck - 1

Chevy - 12
Ford - 7
Dodge - 6
Pontiac - 1

Looking at it that way it's not so bad

car makes top 41 in points (car owners)
taking out Travis Carter in 33rd

Chevy - 14
Dodge - 12
Ford - 9
Pontiac - 5

Law of averages says Chevy should win more.
 
...makes you want to grab a wrench and jump in somewhere. I think this year is nearing a write off. Next year should be interesting. Will the tweaks to the Fords and Mopars do what they need?...and will Yates get back on track?

I'd like to see BME (not refering to Bill Miller Enginering) back, and while at it an re-incarnation of a Holman-Moody organization?
 
Originally posted by EJL@Sep 17 2003, 08:40 PM

Posted on Tue, Sep. 16, 2003 

2003 Winston Cup manufacturer standings
The Associated Press

Chevrolet 192 (13)
Ford 165 (7)
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Ya know what's funny about these stats...I don't care, as do a lot of people! But if it was reversed & Ford was out to a lead like this over Chevy...we would have a least 20 thread's dedicated to 'Why Ford has all the advantages or why Chevy is struggling soooooooooo bad this year'. ;)
 
To some, the manufacturers title is the championship (myself included).
 
Originally posted by Windsor377@Sep 17 2003, 11:58 PM
To some, the manufacturers title is the championship (myself included).
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Hell'ev a lot more realistic than the socalled drivers championship.
 
Originally posted by Windsor377@Sep 17 2003, 08:58 PM
To some, the manufacturers title is the championship (myself included).
Click to expand...
In December in NYC what does the Mfg battle mean? Nothing? No team gets extra bucks for winning it. They may get extra $$$ for winning the most races for a particular mfg...but that's it. How many times has a Chevy driver won the WC championship, but Ford won the Mfg champ....quite a few in the past ten to 15 years unless chevy got 'em both. Does anybody remember or care? I don't think so.

I could go into my conspiricy theory how Nascar favors Chevy since over the past 15 years we have had 9 chevys, 3 pontiacs & 3 fords win championships...but I won't. It gets worse if you go by mfg's championships over the past 20 years...the funny thing is that you add Buick to the equation & pontiac hasn't won a mfg champ it in that time frame. The only reason Ford looks closer that it really is becasue the Taurus has won 3 out of the last 5...mainly because of more powerful teams like Roush, Yates & Penske until they bailed for Dodge.
 
I'll state it again:

"To some, the manufacturers title is the championship (myself included)."

I could care less what "everybody" else thinks or remembers about the NYC show. So do others. Nothing will sway my opinion here and I'm quite familiar with the past 30+ years of NASCAR.
 
I don't think much of the manufacturer's championship, mainly because it doesn't really factor in how there are varying amounts of cars that run each brand. If they could find some way to average out the points by race of the teams running each make, then have those accumulate into a final championship, I think it would be more meaningful.
 
That's interesting. The more the odds are stacked (by numbers) against me or my favorite, the more I like it.
 
Originally posted by Windsor377@Sep 19 2003, 06:59 PM
That's interesting. The more the odds are stacked (by numbers) against me or my favorite, the more I like it.
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Me to windsor
 
Thinking about this more, NASCAR's way of scoring Manufacturer points minimizes overwelming numbers of one make over a nother, to some degree.

Many series would score a make for each of it's cars in scoring positions. Let's say the scale is, 9, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1 for positions 1 - 6. If brand x finished in the top 3 slots, they would earn 19 points. The way NASCAR scores now, they would only earn 9. I prefer the other way of scoring, but either is ok in my book.
 
Originally posted by Windsor377@Sep 18 2003, 03:53 AM
I'll state it again:

"To some, the manufacturers title is the championship (myself included)."

I could care less what "everybody" else thinks or remembers about the NYC show. So do others. Nothing will sway my opinion here and I'm quite familiar with the past 30+ years of NASCAR.
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Why do fans feel the manufacturers title is so important?? Does it mean that much ?? Maybe for the old saying "win on Sunday , sell on Monday", but what is there about the manufacturers title that is so meaningful. Or is it the old horsecrap discussion of Chevy vs. Ford vs. Chrysler and soon, Toyota.

The only thing stock is the block and the rest are pretty much outside supplied parts. So what is the big deal here?? I'm not trying to stir the pot, but if these cars had stock bodies and parts, it might be a different situation. Nascar Winston Cup races are not won by a FordChevyDodge because they are a better manufactured car. The races are won because of race strategy, driver ability and car setup on specially manufactured chassis and engines with non-stock after market parts and different tire compounds for each track.

I guess you can see, I'm not into the manufacturers title race, but that doesn't mean others should not have reasonable reasons to be. What I am interested in, under current NASCAR rules, is why is it important to some of you ??? Curiousity compels I ask this question. :rolleyes:
 
Even in these days of "parity" the manufacturers still place a lot of effort into the various racing series in which they compete.

For examples:

1. The bodies of each, while maintaining adherence to the sub-set of common templates mandated for all, still have very specific and unique solutions for the sub-set of templetes outside of the common set. These templetes can and do reflect the the manufactures philosphical and engineering signatures.

2. The manufactures also pool information to one degree or another for the overall benefit for it associated teams (there is more here than I could possibly get into, everythig from aero, to chassis to powertrain, to expectations, etc)

3. The blocks are just a subsset of the engine supplied by the manufacturer. The cylinder heads are probably the single most important component responsible for HP production. Each and every manufacturer has very specific designs based on very specific philosophies. Each is a bit of a compromise of all possilities with that intent that "ones" is a better combination of compromise than everyone elses...thinking about it, other parts such as intake manifolds must have a part number from the appropiate manufacturer...nonetheless all the aftermarket parts must compliment the original inherent design characteristics of the basic pieces purchaced/provided by the manufacture...again, supporting the philosophical approach of each make.

So yes, it is that same old horsecrap. I wouldn't have it any other way. The day everyone runs the same engine, NASCAR will become a page in my history...ala, Champ cars, and they all run Fords!
 
Originally posted by Windsor377@Sep 21 2003, 10:17 PM

So yes, it is that same old horsecrap. I wouldn't have it any other way. The day everyone runs the same engine, NASCAR will become a page in my history...ala, Champ cars, and they all run Fords!
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Ah yes, the same old horsecrap, and no offense intended Windsor, but this is the mentality I have trouble understanding. No matter how you to spin the explanation, the last the last seven words say more than any other words; "................................ as long as they all run Fords". :D
 
You may have missed my point. I used Champ cars as an exaple of something I wont watch or follow now, because they all run the same engine. In this case, it is all Fords and I'm a Ford man. I have the same thoughts toward ASA, but they run all Chevys
 
Originally posted by Windsor377@Sep 22 2003, 10:04 PM
You may have missed my point. I used Champ cars as an exaple of something I wont watch or follow now, because they all run the same engine. In this case, it is all Fords and I'm a Ford man. I have the same thoughts toward ASA, but they run all Chevys
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I did. Miss your point that is. Appreciate your setting me straight. :cheers:
 
No problem. I wont try to change your priorities, because I know what I like is what I like...always been a little stuborn that way. I assume yo are the same from the other perspective.

Neither "man" nor machine can make a race without the other. But, when I think of automobile racing or motorsports I think of different automobiles and different "motors". Without the difference, it just doesn't seem as fun.
 
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