Ford teams still using cable-driven fuel pump

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KingGlamis

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During yesterday's testing they showed Biffle on pit road doing some start/stop/stall/restart stuff. And they mentioned the Ford teams are still using cable-driven fuel pumps instead of electric pumps. Anyone know why? I haven't read anything on why. Seems to me the electric pumps would be an advantage?
 
I heard that also, but then the day before they said the new fuel systems had two or three electric pumps. :confused:
 
NASCAR owtlawed electric fuel pumps years ago, due to the fact that they could continue to pump gasoline after a crash. I guess that they have changed their minds...
 
Na$car never "outlawed" electric pumps, they were never allowed in the first place. The cable drive pumps came to be because the mechanical fuel pump that all cars ran is on the right side on a Chevy and gets knocked off in contact with the wall, or anything else.

A electric pump wired thru a relay and connected to the oil pressure sending unit kills the pump immediately when there is no oil pressure.
 
I asked Larry McReynolds today and he didn't know either. But he said he would ask Doug Yates about it and give us an update.
 
It is now legal to run an electric fuel pump with the FI system. The original FI set up for the Cup cars all had cable driven pumps some of the teams had issues restarting cars during testing so NASCAR allowed the electric pump.
Some cars are now using the electric pumps some are using the mechanical electric pumps they both are legal and both seem to do the job.
Several teams at Daytona where swapping back and forth between the two systems to see which system was more efficient at picking up All the fuel in the cell and restarting an engine that was ran out of fuel.
My personal opinion is the meachanical pump is better at both it's also less prone to failure and dosent put an added draw on your electrical system. That was another thing tested to see how long the electric pump and FI system would go with the charging system shut off.....not far! If you have an altenator failure you better catch it Quick or you'll be on the hook.
 
I remember raising this issue some time back, and it's all worked out as I said it would. EFI doesn't have an accelerator reservoir to get the engine and mechanical pump primed. It was a no-brainer that they would need to go electric or never get a car started after running dry.

Here's the new setup. EVERY car has an electric fuel pump mounted near the engine. Teams have a choice to feed that pump by using a mechanical tank pump, 1 electric tank pump, or 2 electric tank pumps. All the tank pumps do is prime the engines electric pump, which is spec for max flow.

Roush must feel that their mechanical primer pumps will get enough gas to the EFI electric pump, which makes sense. Jack is saving a few bucks, but their cars will be harder to start after fueling out.
 
FenderBumper said:
I remember raising this issue some time back, and it's all worked out as I said it would. EFI doesn't have an accelerator reservoir to get the engine and mechanical pump primed. It was a no-brainer that they would need to go electric or never get a car started after running dry.

Here's the new setup. EVERY car has an electric fuel pump mounted near the engine. Teams have a choice to feed that pump by using a mechanical tank pump, 1 electric tank pump, or 2 electric tank pumps. All the tank pumps do is prime the engines electric pump, which is spec for max flow.

Roush must feel that their mechanical primer pumps will get enough gas to the EFI electric pump, which makes sense. Jack is saving a few bucks, but their cars will be harder to start after fueling out.
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I'm not sure that makes sense. Not saying you are wrong until I get more info. But on Speed they said teams had the option of running one or two pumps in the tank. They didn't say anything about a pump at the engine. And how would a cable-driven pump prime an electric pump if the engine is off? It couldn't, that's the problem they have always had, which is why they squirt fuel in the cowl when the car stalls on pit road.
 
KingGlamis said:
And how would a cable-driven pump prime an electric pump if the engine is off? It couldn't, that's the problem they have always had, which is why they squirt fuel in the cowl when the car stalls on pit road.
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That's what I just said. It wouldn't. But some crazy dudes around here thought you could squirt fuel into the intake like the old days. I doubt it will work.

Trust me, there is an electric pump that feeds the injectors. The tank pumps keep that EFI pump primed and don't feed the EFI driectly.
 
FenderBumper said:
That's what I just said. It wouldn't. But some crazy dudes around here thought you could squirt fuel into the intake like the old days. I doubt it will work.

Trust me, there is an electric pump that feeds the injectors. The tank pumps keep that EFI pump primed and don't feed the EFI driectly.
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This is actually how we have to start our car.

NitroDude (if he sees this) can explain it further I'm sure, it's basically the same way you start a nitro motor...Basically, we have a 1qt tank of 87 octane pump gas with a small 5gpm electric fuel pump that pumps directly to the plenum. Open the fuel valve for the mechanical pump, run the electric for 5 seconds, go to 1/4 throttle, spin the motor over with the ignition off until the oil pressure light turns off, light the candles, let it get to high idle (~3400 rpm), then shut off the electric pump and close the throttle blades and let idle drop down to 2200. The 87 octane is so that it'll easily combust on a cold start. Even then sometimes it takes 2 or 3 tries.
 
Did the world suddenly shift and squrting fuel into a intake no longer starts an engine :eek:

I remember this conversation from awhile back :rolleyes:
FI is still a work in process it HASNT been raced in Cup yet. Although it's Trouble Free in testing we may see some more changes for race Strategy and Recovery purposes, NASCAR is being very leniate with some aspects of the system, Thankfully.
 
Magnethead said:
This is actually how we have to start our car.

NitroDude (if he sees this) can explain it further I'm sure, it's basically the same way you start a nitro motor...Basically, we have a 1qt tank of 87 octane pump gas with a small 5gpm electric fuel pump that pumps directly to the plenum. Open the fuel valve for the mechanical pump, run the electric for 5 seconds, go to 1/4 throttle, spin the motor over with the ignition off until the oil pressure light turns off, light the candles, let it get to high idle (~3400 rpm), then shut off the electric pump and close the throttle blades and let idle drop down to 2200. The 87 octane is so that it'll easily combust on a cold start. Even then sometimes it takes 2 or 3 tries.
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Magnethead, we do not use an electric pump. We even use a hand pump to pump the nitro out of the barrel in to the fuel jugs. We use 2 fuel pumps that will pump about 102 gpm. We have two different starting procedures. We can warm up on alcohol, or we can go straight to nitro. We run 2 spark plugs per cylinder, so we have to run to mags, and 2 coils. If you warm up in the pit on alcohol then you can attach a gallon metal jug of alcohol with a quick release fitting to the fuel block on the back of the injector hat. We hang a starter on to the blower pully and with the fuel pumps off I will spin the engine over to clean out any fuel that might have dripped in to a cylinder from a leaky nozzle, and to build oil pressure. This is a very important step because if a cylinder fills up with fuel and you turn the engine over then it can hydraulic and blow the blower and the head off the engine and someone could be killed. Now we are ready to start. I spin the engine over and some one will turn a valve on the alcohol bottle, and someone will squirt gas in to the injector hat, then I will pull the wire off of one coil, and when it lights then I will pull the wire off of the other coil. Then I pull the starter off and hand it to someone. Then when we are ready to go to nitro then I turn the pumps on and we have fire in the pipes. Then someone unhooks the alcohol jug. Now we can go through all of our systems. Shutting the engine off is a whole different procedure. On the starting line we go straight to nitro.
 
I found this in a story by Bob Pockrass on SceneDaily.

Teams have the option of whether to use an electric or cable fuel pump. The Fords are using a cable while other manufacturers are using electric fuel pumps. NASCAR also recently increased the number of electric lift pumps inside the fuel tank from one to two – making it easier to fuel the car while it is on heavy banking.
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He's calling the in-tank pumps "lift" pumps, probably meaning they feed the main pump. I'm still trying to find more info.

Full article here: http://www.scenedaily.com/news/arti...fuel_injection_results_from_Daytona_test.html
 
KingGlamis said:
I found this in a story by Bob Pockrass on SceneDaily.



He's calling the in-tank pumps "lift" pumps, probably meaning they feed the main pump. I'm still trying to find more info.
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Errrr...I've been telling you that all along. :owquitit:
 
KingGlamis said:
I found this in a story by Bob Pockrass on SceneDaily.



He's calling the in-tank pumps "lift" pumps, probably meaning they feed the main pump. I'm still trying to find more info.

Full article here: http://www.scenedaily.com/news/arti...fuel_injection_results_from_Daytona_test.html
Click to expand...

Exactly, Bosch did this for years with one in tank pump to feed the main, frame mounted pump. The frame mounted pumps were capable of pumping in excess of 100 PSI but were not able to pull fuel from the tank therefore needing a lift or prepump or whatever you want to call it. I repaired many volvos back in the 80's with failed prepumps. I haven't worked on euro cars for years now but I never understood why they never put one high pressure pump in the tank like is done nowadays. I can only assume Ford is using the cable driven pump as a lift or prepump.
 
FenderBumper said:
Errrr...I've been telling you that all along. :owquitit:
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No, you said:

I remember raising this issue some time back, and it's all worked out as I said it would. EFI doesn't have an accelerator reservoir to get the engine and mechanical pump primed. It was a no-brainer that they would need to go electric or never get a car started after running dry.

Here's the new setup. EVERY car has an electric fuel pump mounted near the engine. Teams have a choice to feed that pump by using a mechanical tank pump, 1 electric tank pump, or 2 electric tank pumps. All the tank pumps do is prime the engines electric pump, which is spec for max flow.

Roush must feel that their mechanical primer pumps will get enough gas to the EFI electric pump, which makes sense. Jack is saving a few bucks, but their cars will be harder to start after fueling out.
Click to expand...

Speed is saying the cable-driven pump is the MAIN pump, not the lift-pump, as you are saying. A cable-driven pump could not possibly be the lift-pump unless the cable is driven off the starter motor (which I highly doubt).
 
BTW FB if you have a link I would love to read the story that explains it all.
 
Nitro Dude said:
Magnethead, we do not use an electric pump. We even use a hand pump to pump the nitro out of the barrel in to the fuel jugs. We use 2 fuel pumps that will pump about 102 gpm. We have two different starting procedures. We can warm up on alcohol, or we can go straight to nitro. We run 2 spark plugs per cylinder, so we have to run to mags, and 2 coils. If you warm up in the pit on alcohol then you can attach a gallon metal jug of alcohol with a quick release fitting to the fuel block on the back of the injector hat. We hang a starter on to the blower pully and with the fuel pumps off I will spin the engine over to clean out any fuel that might have dripped in to a cylinder from a leaky nozzle, and to build oil pressure. This is a very important step because if a cylinder fills up with fuel and you turn the engine over then it can hydraulic and blow the blower and the head off the engine and someone could be killed. Now we are ready to start. I spin the engine over and some one will turn a valve on the alcohol bottle, and someone will squirt gas in to the injector hat, then I will pull the wire off of one coil, and when it lights then I will pull the wire off of the other coil. Then I pull the starter off and hand it to someone. Then when we are ready to go to nitro then I turn the pumps on and we have fire in the pipes. Then someone unhooks the alcohol jug. Now we can go through all of our systems. Shutting the engine off is a whole different procedure. On the starting line we go straight to nitro.
Click to expand...
That's what I thought (some of the steps are obvious, but nice descripting anywho)

Ours won't start on alcohol cold. 1 quart of pump gas lasts about 3 minutes idling before it runs dry and the motor's on full methanol.

We're gonna talk to Gaylen Smith about getting a gallon or two of nitro and making our own 10% mix, or just getting 10 gallons of M5. Supposed to be worth a tenth out of the box, and that's how much we'll need to get in the big shows. Plus we still make the dial-within-a-tenth rule. Figure if it takes us from 5.45 to 5.35 on a good track, that's good for 2nd or 3rd position on the ladder in top sportsman [the bracket version]. Definitely will be checking the chute- making a 2800 pound car slow down from 130 mph in 1000 feet or less is definitely a chore.

Back on topic, what doorslammer on injection do when they have a rear fuel cell, is use an electric fuel pump to fill a 1 gallon "surge tank" up in the nose, which the mechanical pump feeds off of. So even though the original fuel cell is the same height as the motor, the surge tank is up higher to feed the mechanical pump.
 
fastfordfan said:
http://www.scenedaily.com/news/arti...fuel_injection_results_from_Daytona_test.html
Click to expand...

In that article it states ALL Ford teams are using cable driven pumps and ALL OTHER teams are using electric pumps....that may be true for the Toyotas and Dodges BUTT Several Chevrolet teams brought test cars capable of running Either system and did run multiple test on both types of pumps/fuel systems. Words still out on what system will be used and it's quite possible mechanical will be ran at some types of tracks and electric at others.

One other thing that became obvious was that if not for NASCAR's gear ratio rule we could have very well seen laps in the 210-215 area while drafting or tandeming.
 
KingGlamis said:
A cable-driven pump could not possibly be the lift-pump unless the cable is driven off the starter motor (which I highly doubt).
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Really? Then how have the cars been running for the past few years without electric pumps?

So, Roush can't be using the old cable drive system as the main pump, because the old main pump was mounted IN THE BACK NEAR THE TANK and driven by a cable connected to the crank or cam. Are you saying that Roush has mounted a MAIN mechanical fuel pump near the engine and has decided to drive it by cable? What sense would that make?

From the article: "Toyota Racing Development President Lee White. “You have 10 times the fuel pressure to worry about and managing that."

Sorry dude, but I've been consistant all along. Months ago, I said the EFI system would require electric lift pumps because a pump turning slowly while a driver cranks the motor would never provide the needed pressure for EFI. THAT CABLE SYSTEM couldn't even spin the motor fast enough to prime the old mechanical pump mounted NEAR the tank. That's why crew member had to squirt fuel into the carb to get enough engine RPM's to get the pump primed.
 
• Teams have the option of whether to use an electric or cable fuel pump. The Fords are using a cable while other manufacturers are using electric fuel pumps. NASCAR also recently increased the number of electric lift pumps inside the fuel tank from one to two – making it easier to fuel the car while it is on heavy banking.
 
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