From Where I sit.....

Whizzer

Whizzer

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From where I sit, the system is kaput !!!!

NASCAR took the charm from the series. As much as there were things to dislike about the series thirty years ago, and more, the latest spate of rule changes, fines and penalties have taken the sweetness from the sport.

YESSSSSSSSSSSS !!!! NASCAR has shown consistency, but in the overall scheme of things, the consistent call against "Joon-yer" and his use of questionable politically incorrect verbage, has done little other than once again, steal individuality away from the main players. "Joon-yer", like Tony Stewart, is what he is. There is no pretention with either of them.

"Joon-yer" hit the nail on the head with his comment of, "why would anyone who finds the word (****) objectionable watch the sport".
Good quote Joon-yer.
To those offended by what they might consider an inappropriate word, try another sport because if you want something pristine, NASCAR ain't it.
Maybe something like chess would be more appropriate!!!

Although this will no doubt cause controversy, Jeff Gordon is not pretentious. Jeff was groomed from day one to be who and what he is by his step-father. He was not trained by the NASCAR and big business media people as a result of bad manners or incivility as were some of the "johnny-come-latelys". Busch and Stewart immediately come to mind. Jeff Gordon's deportment is no different than the lessons each one of us received from our parents as we grew up.

The crux of this post is to express total disatisfaction with the turn of events within the NASCAR structure. Rule changes, formats changes and stripping of individualism have turned this old man cynical.

Times change, people change and NASCAR has changed. Guess the changes do not make this any easier. MacInroe, Dailey, Knight, are names that come to mind in different sports. Men who left their feelings on the table and walked away. You might dislike them for what they did and found thier use of profanity objectionable, but they are their own style of people. They are what they are. And without that, the sport loses something.

Just as NASCAR has lost a lot. And I am not a "Joon-yer" fan nor did I like his father as a driver. But they are what they are. Like'em or hate'em, just like Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, Kevin Harvick or Robby Gordon. They are individuals and that makes the sport as much, if not more, than the racing.
 
Maybe the system is kaput. And, maybe that is a good thing. The sport still has followers. Perhaps from the ashes will arise something we can recognize that is far different from what we have today.
Someone with vision, a dream, and a boatload of money can return racing to its roots and succeed.
 
"have turned this old man cynical." Finally! Join me here in cynics central.


Trouble in paradise syndrome, Whiz. The never ending 'revenue first' policy of Nascar is exactly what the problem is. It is too often overstated and needlessly over complicated. Nascar, my friend, has hit the wall. The sanctioning body---very canny PR men with their hands on the cultural and demographic trends of American consumer society----know this all too well. Now their problem is different than it was even two years ago, IMO. The question has changed. It's not: "How much bigger can we get" , it's "how can we maintain the status quo"....and make ourselves even richer.

And like so many endeavors thru out society, CHANGE is seen as the only way. The old cajun adage: 'dance wit da one who brung ya' should have been looked at a little more closely.

But it wasn't. So now the sanctioning body is in a little state of confusion as WHAT exactly to do...who to appease, who to let go? Bet your Busch/Biffle '04 bumper stickers that they very very carefully weighed what the repercussions of penalizing Little E would be( and behind closed doors) . In the end they very most likely got a little help from the bean counters and PR department.. After all---the potential for 'anti-JR' backlash is always there. THIS time---that segment of fandom 'won'. Quite a reversal from the spoon-fed way the Earnhardts had been treated in simpler years! Sadly, no one really wins. 'Earnies' and the 'anti-Junes' both lose. NASCAR is only going to become more inconsistentaly consistent. Steady in their chaos. Paradox-city.


So cynical? Yeah.....me too. Now if we could get a few thousands more cynical enough, we could change this silly state of the sport.
 
As a fan of this sport for many decades, I can tell you that I've seen some really big changes to this sport. Some I've liked, but many I've not liked but for some reason or another, I have kept watching the sport and it's still my favorite. I am never going to begrudge someone for trying to make a little more money. Afterall, this is a free market society and we get what we can depending on the market. My guess is and it's an easy guess is that if everyone who hates this new NASCAR stopped watching it, the boys would still be making millions and the sponsors would still be paying those big bucks. In other words, there are more people out there who are willing to watch the sport than not.

Having tried to do it in a much smaller way, I've found that you will never be able to satisfy everyone in any endevour. NASCAR is no different. What has kept this sport true in the way it's always been is the fact that the sanctioning body is run, no ruled, but a small group of people. Years ago, Richard Petty and others tried to boycott the body at the Talladega track. Big Bill said to go ahead...I'll find plenty of drivers who will race. He did and they didn't. That shows how has the upper hand. Last year, Kirk Shelmerdine said of some of the drivers who were complaining about this and that, "let 'em gripe and quit. I'll take their place" and he did. Early in the year, they were having a difficult time finding 43 cars to field a race and many were saying that could become a real problem in the future, that they may have to run the races with fewer than a full field. They didn't and the number of teams trying to qualify has steadily risen. Yeah, many of those cars are "field fillers", but I remember when Richard Childress was a field filler. The sport always has had those kind of drivers and most of the time, there were a hell of a lot more of them than there are today.

What will happen to NASCAR will depend on whether or not people continue to be attracted to the sport. Sponsorship, the cost of running a team or teams and everything else will be based on that fact. When the cost outruns the viewership, the sport will be forced to change directions, not before. Does anyone remember the series USAC? Still out there but a shell of what it was when CART was part of it. Now look at CART. This is why the networks are more interested in the numbers of viewers instead of the numbers of the drivers.
 
Well reasoned Buck!
:cheers:

I dont agree,however, in the cavalier attitude Nascar---or any other buisness for that matter---has towards the longer standing fans. Please EVERYONE shouldnt be the goal, maybe..but striving to please those that have helped get you where you are, should be. Most any buisness has a 'prefered customer' database,after all.


Just my opinion.


(And nobody can get an interesting post going like old Whizzer!Where ya been, man?)
 
97, today the bottom line is what have you done for me lately. If you look at it, it's the old fans that seem to be griping the most anyway. When the sport no longer has drivers like Rusty, Marky, DJ, Ricky and all those older guys, it will actually have passed the baton to another totally different generation. While they have a pretty good fan base, it's dwindling and more and more fans are going with names like Jr, Gordon, Stewart, Busch et. al. Most of the fans that have come into the sport with those guys haven't seen the large changes many of us old farts have seen, thus it's changes like the scoring system that they fianlly notice. Also, if you go to any of the races, you will still see many of us old farts there, wearing the colors of our new favs. Time marches on and if you want to stay around and comiserate about the old ways, you get left behind. It isn't that NASCAR wants to let you go or doesn't care about you, it's that they want you to jump on board their new NASCAR.
 
Originally posted by 97forever@Oct 6 2004, 04:51 PM
I dont agree,however, in the cavalier attitude Nascar---or any other buisness for that matter---has towards the longer standing fans. Please EVERYONE shouldnt be the goal, maybe..but striving to please those that have helped get you where you are, should be. Most any buisness has a 'prefered customer' database,after all.


Just my opinion.
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I think you hit upon the main crux of almost every NASCAR bash, nearly every whine, and the obvious jealousy of most every successful driver in the sport. You think that NASCAR owes you more simply because you are "one of the ones who put NASCAR where it is" (at least you think you are). You did not put NASCAR where it is now........the France family did that. They did it despite your objections and protests. Bill France had a plan to make NASCAR the biggest and greatest form of stock car racing in the world..........he has pretty nearly accomplished that goal. Had he catered to you as you say he should, NASCAR would still be where it was in the 60's and 70's.......a small division confined mainly to a geographical area bounded by the Atlanta Ocean on the east, Virginia on the north, Florida on the south, and Georgia on the west. The name NASCAR would be a joke........no where near national in scope. Back in the 60's and 70's I'm sure most of you were longing for the big time.......tired of being laughed at by CART, USAC, F1 and any number of other big time motor sports. Well, my friend, NASCAR accomplished what you longed for and now you are miffed because they went against your wishes to become the big time sport you wanted to be. Time to get up off the floor with your kicking and screaming and join the real world. NASCAR does not owe you diddilly squat. They owe no one........you did not help them get where they are. They did it on their own....despite your protests. You do have a choice to either take NASCAR or leave it..........and the France family is well aware of that.
 
Is this 'see how many times you can be wrong ' night or what Wrangler?(and your second directed at me without provocation) The damned fans put Nascar where it is today. No one else. And by fans I AM REFERING TO THOSE THAT CAME ALONG AT THE SAME TIME THE SPORT DID. Wal-mart is Wal-mart without customers??? Same thing man.


Now go collect yourself before you make one more of these asinine posts in regards to my opinion. At least try to HAVE a point.

'The fans didn't make the sport'........gimme a break dude. :rolleyes:
 
" I think you hit upon the main crux of almost every NASCAR bash, nearly every whine, and the obvious jealousy of most every successful driver in the sport. You think that NASCAR owes you more simply because you are "one of the ones who put NASCAR where it is" (at least you think you are). You did not put NASCAR where it is now........the France family did that. They did it despite your objections and protests. Bill France had a plan to make NASCAR the biggest and greatest form of stock car racing in the world..........he has pretty nearly accomplished that goal. Had he catered to you as you say he should, NASCAR would still be where it was in the 60's and 70's.......a small division confined mainly to a geographical area bounded by the Atlanta Ocean on the east, Virginia on the north, Florida on the south, and Georgia on the west. The name NASCAR would be a joke........no where near national in scope. Back in the 60's and 70's I'm sure most of you were longing for the big time.......tired of being laughed at by CART, USAC, F1 and any number of other big time motor sports. Well, my friend, NASCAR accomplished what you longed for and now you are miffed because they went against your wishes to become the big time sport you wanted to be. Time to get up off the floor with your kicking and screaming and join the real world. NASCAR does not owe you diddilly squat. They owe no one........you did not help them get where they are. They did it on their own....despite your protests. You do have a choice to either take NASCAR or leave it..........and the France family is well aware of that."


Ah, what the heck. I've got time....let's see what you have here. Since you are obviously a little perturbed with me tonight.


1." I think you hit upon the main crux of almost every NASCAR bash, nearly every whine, and the obvious jealousy of most every successful driver in the sport."

The implication is what here, exactly>? That paying fans, the back bone and life blood of any money making venture HAVE NO MERIT OR INPUT?? Sorry...thats just wrong, friend. Anything that makes money has to generate that money from some source. And that source expects something in return for that money. Basic shade tree economics.

2. "and the obvious jealousy of most every successful driver in the sport." What does THIS mean...that every one who disagrees with Nascar is 'jealous'??? Try harder. Some expect a return of the money they spend on the sport they enjoy. And you are the same way...if hesitant to admit it.

3. "You think that NASCAR owes you more simply because you are "one of the ones who put NASCAR where it is" (at least you think you are). You did not put NASCAR where it is now"......

Ok. The fans didnt make Nascar.....Thats just about the most stupid thing I have read in some time. A sport without fans simply isnt. Owes us more? Owes us SOMETHING is more accurate.


4."They did it despite your objections and protests."

I suppose the "YOUR" here means everyone who has ever been disgruntled with the sanctioning body......oooo----kkkk.

5."Back in the 60's and 70's I'm sure most of you were longing for the big time.......tired of being laughed at by CART, USAC, F1 and any number of other big time motor sports. Well, my friend, NASCAR accomplished what you longed for and now you are miffed because they went against your wishes to become the big time sport you wanted to be. Time to get up off the floor with your kicking and screaming and join the real world. NASCAR does not owe you diddilly squat. They owe no one........you did not help them get where they are. They did it on their own....despite your protests. You do have a choice to either take NASCAR or leave it..........and the France family is well aware of that."


I'm a little baffled as to exactly who the hell you are talking to here? Can you explain who the 'you' is in this? Me? The average not-you fan? Who? Santa Clause?

All in all thats just sad Wrangler. You reacted in obvious anger for some reason. That will always let you down. Take it from a guy who knows. If you get pissed at me, thats ok, I can handle my end. But please dont embarass yourself like this. :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by 97forever@Oct 6 2004, 07:05 PM
"have turned this old man cynical." Finally! Join me here in cynics central.
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Got another stool available?

The following comments are directed toward no one person in particular. If it hits a nerve, good. If it doesn't, wonderful. But not one single person is the target for this post. There. That oughta be plain enough.

Did I put NASCAR where they are today? No way. Wish I had, I'd be eating steak tonight instead of peanut butter. Did I help put them there? You bet your sweet ass I did. The money I spent on tickets, shirts, caps, diecast, Winston Cup Scene subscriptions, time spent watching it on TV, word of mouth to friends who never watched it and started, to friends who were casual fans and got hooked to a deeper level. Yes, I helped them make their money. Until this year, I got satisfactory return on my investment. Until.

I've lived and died with my favorite drivers. Literally. Alan Kulwicki's death had an impact on my day to day life. It drove home that any of us can be gone in a flash. Sure, other people in my life died before that, but Alan crashed not far from here. He was larger than life, the consumate underdog (or Underbird if you prefer), the ultimate champion for Everyman. The thrill that coursed through my body the day Mark Martin won that first Cup race at Rockingham is one of the fondest memories I have. So many times, so many races, so many memories...it'd take years to go over all of them.

I got pissed at NASCAR before. Walked off from it for a few years after the 1990 fiasco. What brought me back was the realization that, imperfect as it may be, it was still a part of me. I couldn't find a suitable substitute. Football and baseball were rife with high dollar prima donnas whose dedication fell with decimal points on contracts. Basketball? Puh-leeze. I don't speak the language. I'm in Dixie, so hockey is as confusing to me as Father's Day in the projects. Racing still occupied a spot in my heart that nothing else seemed able to fill, faults and all.

I've aged since then. Gotten older, gotten more cynical I guess, become more jaded. I chide people all the time for falling for these "reality" TV shows that are so obviously scripted. Well, in my eyes, major league stock car racing has become no better. Certain drivers have an obvious advantage that anyone with unbiased vision can clearly see. Certain drivers get away with damn near anything; others can't sneeze without being penalized for it. There are a select handful that are basically given every opportunity to do well...all they have to do is not blow it. Others fight uphill every step of the way and when they do manage to overcome it and succeed, they have it taken from them. Not one person here or anywhere else can tell me that the level of attention, promotion, and recognition has been paid to last season's champion by the sanctioning body as has been paid to the son of a former champion...the same person Kenseth also beat out for Rookie Of The Year honors. Some even had the audacity to publically call for Matt to SHARE that title with the man he beat for it...like Junior deservesd it simply because of who he is. So maybe I'm more disgusted with modern fans than with NASCAR itself.

The problem is, NASCAR is pandering to these new, and I maintain these temporary, fans so much that they are alienating the older ones. If I were gonna pack my toys and go home simply because of change, God knows I've had ample opportunity to do so before now. So what's making now so different? It's what's being changed. Run races where you like, but make changes for the better, not for profit or politics among track owners or this lame demographic/geographic line they're selling. If I want to see a race in Phoenix, I go. And I happen to like that track a lot. Phasing out you past to propugate a myth and pander to one segment of fans is flat wrong. Raping the points system in favor of this current travesty is wrong. Giving drivers laps back to inflate competition is wrong...if Driver A is so much better than everyone else that he can lap the field, it's on the other 42 to catch up not on NASCAR to catch them up.

So that's my two cents, with interest I guess. Reply if and as you please...my mind is set. The final Southern 500 will be my last race, unless by some miracle Eyyitt Sadwah is eligible to win it all in Miami. I'm at peace with it, it's what I feel is right for me, and that's that. I'll be around long enough to claim my Big Dawgs trophy ( :D ), say bye to a few folks whose insight and company I treasure, and that'll be it. I'll meander on down the road somewhere and make a nest elsewhere. NASCAR won't miss me. Maybe they might miss a couple hundred thousand like me, but that ain't gonna happen either. They've got their hooks in too deep for most to detatch. I'm just not one of them. Anymore.
 
Simple answer: The fans I'm referring to are the fans who are whining about what NASCAR has done to bring the sport to where it is now............the fans who don't like what is happening and scream that NASCAR owes them something special. I assume that something special is to cater to those same fans. Ignore the majority of the fans.......just pay attention to that small (small being relative to the whole group of fans......a big group of fans could make small a rather large number) group of fans that "brought NASCAR along". I helped bring NASCAR along too.........but I never screamed they owe me a race or two races or a whole season of races at my preferred track in my preferred region. I hear that a lot here..........and on other boards too. You (and that is a plural you......not directed at 97 specifically....tone the ego down a little) are continually dwelling on how NASCAR has turned their back on the fans.........they haven't turned their back on me (and I've been around a long time). When something changes (a rule, a track, a date, a points system, penalties) you (plural, again) dream up conspiracies, sinister motives, financial reasons, or just plain stupidity on NASCAR's part. You (plural) are like a bunch of spoiled brats constantly whining and crying about how poor lil you (plural) are being neglected or wronged.

That's entirely my opinion.......and I really could care less if you think I have embarrassed myself. I have reasons for my opinions on this subject......they stem from several years of reading posts very similar to yours (that is singlular...directed at 97). Quite frankly I would be embarrassed myself if I whined and threw as many tantrums as I've read on boards for the last 4 or 5 years...........but I haven't so I'm not embarrassed.
 
I do wonder how much that song will change if Fontana gets phased out. Call it a character flaw, but Lord I do wonder. I wonder about a lot of things. It gets me in trouble sometimes. But I just can't help it...I'm inquisitive by nature.
 
If you will remember the discussion of a year or so ago about this very subject (on another board, "EMP") you will note I said that I didn't particularly care about California getting a second date. As a matter of fact I don't particularly care about any track having multiple dates........and I still think that way. But Fontana has two dates and probably will for the forseeable future. Besides, Fontana is not my favorite track.........it's the only one reasonably close so it's the only one can really plan on attending. Should California be phased out as you are so wonderous about, my reaction would be about the same as my reaction to Jr having points taken away........not particularly happy, but not grief stricken either! :)

Good luck in your new adventures away from NASCAR. :cheers:
 
I have an excellent memory. Believe it. Iron clad I dare say.
 
I just heard a story about a sick little kid from a buddy of mine...and something very touching done by a driver of an Elliott Sadler show car.No, it has nothing to do with this thread but it kinda put my mind off of this silliness. :(
 
Originally posted by 97forever@Oct 6 2004, 10:32 PM
I just heard a story about a sick little kid from a buddy of mine...and something very touching done by a driver of an Elliott Sadler show car.No, it has nothing to do with this thread but it kinda put my mind off of this silliness. :(
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:cheers:
 
"(and that is a plural you......not directed at 97 specifically....tone the ego down a little)"

An over inflated ego is not something I suffer from, DE. Trust me, lessons in humility I have encountered plenty of recently. I may be a grating smart-ass..but I'm not an egomaniac.

Besides that, some of your remarks just get a little abstract. For instance:

"......a big group of fans could make small a rather large number)"

Uh...yeah. Ok.


Thats it, difference of opinion. Respond away, I am done with you.
 
Originally posted by fergy1370+Oct 7 2004, 08:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fergy1370 @ Oct 7 2004, 08:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-97forever@Oct 7 2004, 08:02 AM
I may be a grating smart-ass
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$15,000, 150 posts, and wear a Jr avatar for words deterimental to forum boards. [/b][/quote]
BBWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAA!!! :cheers:
 
yeah, i was playing that damn game last night and realized...why in the hell do some of these tracks have more than one date? NHIS? now, Fontana? daytona? Talladega? if they really want to diversify their track locations, drop a date at each of the first two and cut out the plates and a race each at the last two. Move those four races somewhere, Washington, Iowa, Mexico, Kentucky, I don't care, just somewhere else. Have a freakin' dirt race through the back roads of Mexico City, makes as much sense as racing at daytona or talladega with a plate on.
 
EMP, great post, and another opinion. You are of course, not alone in your thinking about the Earnhardt conspiracy. Heavens knows that about half the fan base feels like you do. One question if I may. Okay, maybe a few more than one, but if you believe as you do, how in the world can you explain that Matt did win the ROY over Jr? Having done that, how in the world can you explain how Matt actually won the title over not only Jr. but everyone else? And of course, as most people believe, you probably believe that the new scoring system was put in place because of Matt's win. I see you as a Roush fan and if you really are, then how in the world can you explain that Roush has not one, not two, but actually three drivers who are qualified for the title this year and because of some fluke at the present, one of them is in the lead? If your theory is correct, I would expect to see the top ten in this order...Jr., Waltrip, Harvick, R. Gordon, J. Burton, and any other DEI or RCR leased car to fill up the rest. But no, that's not what we have. Please, please, explain that to me.
 
Some people want to believe there is a conspiracy more than anything in the world.

I got one for ya. The conspiracy is to screw Jr!! Screwed out of ROTY. Screwed out of last years title. Screwed out of having teamates in the chase with him. Now that he finally got the points lead back, they screw him out of that.

Sounds pathetic doesn't it. It gets old too.
 
I don't know what's worse...the conspiracy theories or the reactions to anything that may paint DEjr as being anything but a God.

If his last name gives him some type of entitlement in Nascar, then Pettys, LaBontes and Jarrets etc deserve the same.
 
"I don't know what's worse...the conspiracy theories or the reactions to anything that may paint DEjr as being anything but a God."


ABSOLUTELY correct. The mindset is the exact same.
 
I understand NASCAR's problems. And, if more of you would sit back and think about it rather than jumping on the 1st thought out you would to. There is not a conspiracy for or against Lil'E, JGordon, TStewart, or several other popular drivers. Nor is there a tendency of NASCAR to treat them god-like. As in everything NASCAR will not engage in conduct detrimental to the lining of NASCAR's pockets. That is first and foremost. I've always said, "Follow the money". If going Lil'Es way one time and not the next is the way to keep the money flowing then that's what they do. Nothing more. Nothing less. As in a lot of other areas the sport is slowly being removed and replaced by entertainment. Someone here on another thread said the same and it is readily apparent. They will do what they need to do to line their pockets...
 
Originally posted by 97forever@Oct 7 2004, 09:17 AM
A JR avatar is a little extreme old buddy!!! :unsure:
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Perhaps an appeal is appropiate here. :lol:
 
!!!!!!!!!!SCREAM!!!!!!!!!!

We ALL are entitled to our own opinions, and if one disagrees with another poster, make your rebuttal or shut the he!! up and get over it.
WE don't run Nascar, nor do we run the networks.
I may not like some things going on in Nascar, but those are MY views.
This is an open forum, I really love it here, and like most every poster.

My 2 cents and (((((HUGS)))))
 
Originally posted by kat2220@Oct 8 2004, 12:38 AM
!!!!!!!!!!SCREAM!!!!!!!!!!

We ALL are entitled to our own opinions, and if one disagrees with another poster, make your rebuttal or shut the he!! up and get over it.
WE don't run Nascar, nor do we run the networks.
I may not like some things going on in Nascar, but those are MY views.
This is an open forum, I really love it here, and like most every poster.

My 2 cents and (((((HUGS)))))
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:huh: Relax, Kat. It gets a little heated sometimes, but thats just the nature of the beast. We're all pretty cool here. Now (((((HUGS))))) back at ya. :p
 
Originally posted by buckaroo@Oct 7 2004, 10:58 AM
how in the world can you explain that Matt did win the ROY over Jr? Having done that, how in the world can you explain how Matt actually won the title over not only Jr. but everyone else? And of course, as most people believe, you probably believe that the new scoring system was put in place because of Matt's win. I see you as a Roush fan...
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Easy. Matt won it because he beat Junior on the track using the scoring system in place. The very notion that Junior Nation would whine around and ask him to share it is insulting and pitiful. And it DID happen.

Same with his winning the championship last year...he beat them on the track using the scoring system in place.

Yes, I oppose the new points system. Yes, Matt's performance last year is exactly why we have what we have now. Anyone without blinders would see that. TV ratings fell too drastically last year. We can't have that going on. So instead of forcing the other competitors to catch up, NASCAR creates a bunch of garbage to compensate for these drivers' inabilities...to artificially inflate the quality of the product offered rather than taking steps to actually improve it. See Dog, Lucky Rule. It's malarky of the highest degree. But that's what they did, and most of y'all have happily swallowed it and will continue to do so.

I am not a Roush fan per se. I like some of his drivers very much; others, not so much at all. I like Sadler and dislike Jarrett. I like the Wood Brothers and dislike Rudd. I abhor anything remotely connected to a bowtie, except the chap around here who calls himself that. Other than his affinity for inferior mechanical devices, he seems like a swell enough guy. Misguided but well intentioned if you please. ^_^ Otherwise, that about covers my personal views on things. I yam what I yam.
 
Originally posted by EatMorePossum@Oct 8 2004, 11:56 AM
I abhor anything remotely connected to a bowtie, except the chap around here who calls himself that. Other than his affinity for inferior mechanical devices, he seems like a swell enough guy. Misguided but well intentioned if you please. ^_^
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I don't know how I feel right now. :ph34r:
 
See Dog, Lucky Rule. It's malarky of the highest degree.
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EMP, I know that you are not advocating that a racer actually race to get his position back are you? Everyone knows that in this new generation you have to give them everything and nothing is ever their fault...
 
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