N
J
judas1
Guest
if they do all this, are they going to get rid of restrictor plates?
D
DE_Wrangler_2
Guest
I doubt that this rule has any bearing what so ever on plates. Plates where put on way before any NASCAR approved engine could ever get close to 10k!! Those days the engines were developing in the nieghborhood of 650 hp (with probably 7000 rpm).........what are they now? Pushing 850?
H
Hawk3270
Guest
I'm all for it. Anything to help the little guys, most of which can't afford to dump thousands of dollars for research to gain 5-10 more hp. I would be great to see one of the Petty cars or Ken Schrader score a top 10 every now and then. I also think they should do away with testing. There is too much disparity between the haves and have nots. I get tired of watching the same guys (money teams) win every week. It pains me to see a car with the history of the 43 running at the back.
R
racerx11
Guest
The guys that it'll help out are the Shelmerdines and maybe the Bodines. The wealthy teams will still spend the money but it might give a back marker an opertunity to run mid pack.
M
millermagic
Guest
Why does nascar have to regulate everything?
N
N2racin44
Guest
They'd like to think they are contain skyrocketing costs. But as most team owners will tell you they will just spend the money they save elsewhere.
M
millermagic
Guest
Also, won't the richer teams figure a way t oget around these new rules.
W
Windsor377
Guest
Anyone who thinks the gear rule will help the "have nots" catch up to the "haves" is smoking dope. All this will do is open the difference up even more. This is a knuckleheaded "do gooder" dumb ass rule. Valve train punishment is about to enter a new, never before experienced, level of violence. Further proof to me (along with the dumb ass tranny rule) that nascar is not interested in automobile racing at all.
W
Windsor377
Guest
Nobody thinks I'm blowing smoke?
T
TonyB
Guest
Why should anyone bother to respond in opposition to your post when you have already labeled anyone who disagrees as "smoking dope" and by association also a "dumb ass"?
D
DE_Wrangler_2
Guest
B
boB
Guest
Henry,
I wasn't going to bother entering this contest of differing opinions, but....
At the risk of being thought to be smoking dope (haven't done that in years) and being a dumbass (anyone who knows me will confirm that fact)....
Lots of short tracks around the country run gear rules as a means of containing costs to the competitors.
Thing is, most of those tracks also have some pretty strict limitations on what can or cannot be used as internal engine parts. Usually those components have to be off the shelf, over the counter from the dealer or OEM equivalent.
With that in mind, the gear and transmission rules make perfect sense.
But, we're talking NASCAR's top tier here; the Big Show, all the glamor and glory, television, personal appearances, big time sponsors, lots of fools with money they need to throw away and all that stuff....
The big, rich teams (actually, there is now no such thing as a poor team at this level.) will still use all the internal goodies, titaniumn connecting rods and valves, ultra light pistons, super-lite, small journal crankshafts, all those nice super expensive components that, along with the extensive engine shops, spintrons, machine shops, and dyno rooms allow an antique, obsolete engine design to rev to infinity and beyond, while all those (pretty well financed) poor teams will still have to depend on whatever is available to them as cast-offs from the rich teams, engine lease programs or through the aftermarket parts suppliers and engine builders which have become a complete, rather profitable side industry over the years, supplying parts, equipment and complete engines to those teams involved in what NASCAR likes to call "stock car" racing.
IMHO, all of the publicity and hoopala over these recent rule changes is aimed at making the fans believe the all-powerful demi-gods in the Temples of Speed at Daytona Beach are doing something other than relieving them (those fans) of their last dollar and any loose change they might have left over in their pockets.
Actually, the gear and transmission rules, along with some sensible rules on engine components would most certainly contain costs for the teams.
But then again, any of us who've been around a time or two, realizes that sensible rules, containing costs and racing anything are terms that should never be used all together in the same sentence.
It just ain't gonna happen. NOPE! It just ain't!
SPEED COSTS MONEY! HOW FAST DO YOU WANNA GO?
OK, I'll try to climb down off'n this damn soapbox now.
Maybe I can make it without falling and breaking my damn fool neck.
(Or somethin' more important!)
Have a nice day.
I wasn't going to bother entering this contest of differing opinions, but....
At the risk of being thought to be smoking dope (haven't done that in years) and being a dumbass (anyone who knows me will confirm that fact)....
Lots of short tracks around the country run gear rules as a means of containing costs to the competitors.
Thing is, most of those tracks also have some pretty strict limitations on what can or cannot be used as internal engine parts. Usually those components have to be off the shelf, over the counter from the dealer or OEM equivalent.
With that in mind, the gear and transmission rules make perfect sense.
But, we're talking NASCAR's top tier here; the Big Show, all the glamor and glory, television, personal appearances, big time sponsors, lots of fools with money they need to throw away and all that stuff....
The big, rich teams (actually, there is now no such thing as a poor team at this level.) will still use all the internal goodies, titaniumn connecting rods and valves, ultra light pistons, super-lite, small journal crankshafts, all those nice super expensive components that, along with the extensive engine shops, spintrons, machine shops, and dyno rooms allow an antique, obsolete engine design to rev to infinity and beyond, while all those (pretty well financed) poor teams will still have to depend on whatever is available to them as cast-offs from the rich teams, engine lease programs or through the aftermarket parts suppliers and engine builders which have become a complete, rather profitable side industry over the years, supplying parts, equipment and complete engines to those teams involved in what NASCAR likes to call "stock car" racing.
IMHO, all of the publicity and hoopala over these recent rule changes is aimed at making the fans believe the all-powerful demi-gods in the Temples of Speed at Daytona Beach are doing something other than relieving them (those fans) of their last dollar and any loose change they might have left over in their pockets.
Actually, the gear and transmission rules, along with some sensible rules on engine components would most certainly contain costs for the teams.
But then again, any of us who've been around a time or two, realizes that sensible rules, containing costs and racing anything are terms that should never be used all together in the same sentence.
It just ain't gonna happen. NOPE! It just ain't!
SPEED COSTS MONEY! HOW FAST DO YOU WANNA GO?
OK, I'll try to climb down off'n this damn soapbox now.
Maybe I can make it without falling and breaking my damn fool neck.
(Or somethin' more important!)
Have a nice day.
W
Windsor377
Guest
Well, I need to strongly dissagree. You need to stay on your soap box. This sport has degenerated away from a contest of "motors" and automobiles to one of questioning drivers sexual preferences....and "this" is so much more "popular" than making cars go fast...
I am amazed at the reception this rule received. Seems like back page news and nobody cares. The small local tracks you mentioned which have similar rules along with other matching restrictions seems the way the "big show" is headed. As noted those other restrictions work together to control the competition and costs. Things like cylinder heads that are run just as they come out of a box, with logos cast into the ports which cannot be removed to ensure no tampering. Is this where the premier stock car series is headed? Looks like it to me, and seems like nobody cares, unless the driver is a homosexual or something.
The racers in this sport are being rapidly displaced by the hordes who seem to think drivers are able to "will" a car beyond the laws of physics and these cars are just there in the way of the actual racing.
Nonetheless, I am not here to argue with you but to prove the foolishness of this rule. How it is a do gooder dumb ass rule. One of those "good intentions" used to pave that highway to hell.
If no one cares, then maybe I'm wasting my time. Perhaps this sport is already too far down that highway to hell. I've stayed away from it this year (save 2 events) except to pay attention to results, rules and technology. It has become laborious and like work for me, because I no longer enjoy what was once a pretty decent motorpsort...no more...still I need to stay in touch with technology and rules...I'm stuck.
Still, if you are willing to help here, I am also willing to make a proof that the idiotic decision making within nascar is wrong here. Way wrong.
I'll start by grabbing a couple examples from history. The 1969 Boss 302 Mustang and the 1969 Z-28 Camaro. Both 302s from the factory and rated with the same power output. When done correctly, one needed rpm and the other benefited from a stout torque curve. Care to guess which was which?
I am amazed at the reception this rule received. Seems like back page news and nobody cares. The small local tracks you mentioned which have similar rules along with other matching restrictions seems the way the "big show" is headed. As noted those other restrictions work together to control the competition and costs. Things like cylinder heads that are run just as they come out of a box, with logos cast into the ports which cannot be removed to ensure no tampering. Is this where the premier stock car series is headed? Looks like it to me, and seems like nobody cares, unless the driver is a homosexual or something.
The racers in this sport are being rapidly displaced by the hordes who seem to think drivers are able to "will" a car beyond the laws of physics and these cars are just there in the way of the actual racing.
Nonetheless, I am not here to argue with you but to prove the foolishness of this rule. How it is a do gooder dumb ass rule. One of those "good intentions" used to pave that highway to hell.
If no one cares, then maybe I'm wasting my time. Perhaps this sport is already too far down that highway to hell. I've stayed away from it this year (save 2 events) except to pay attention to results, rules and technology. It has become laborious and like work for me, because I no longer enjoy what was once a pretty decent motorpsort...no more...still I need to stay in touch with technology and rules...I'm stuck.
Still, if you are willing to help here, I am also willing to make a proof that the idiotic decision making within nascar is wrong here. Way wrong.
I'll start by grabbing a couple examples from history. The 1969 Boss 302 Mustang and the 1969 Z-28 Camaro. Both 302s from the factory and rated with the same power output. When done correctly, one needed rpm and the other benefited from a stout torque curve. Care to guess which was which?
W
Windsor377
Guest
Why should anyone bother to respond in opposition to your post when you have already labeled anyone who disagrees as "smoking dope" and by association also a "dumb ass"? [/b][/quote]
If anyone cared about what the drivers actually drove and what regulated them, I'd say anybody. Make a statement like that at any local track and you will get answers. I'm convinced nobody replied untill I pushed, as a result of apathy concerning mechaincal topics related to "big time" racing. Mechanics are no longer important, it seems. Yet, sexual inuendos and at the same time (of all things) political correctness are very high on the interest list of the modern stock car fan.
Still maybe some clarification can help. For the sake of discussion, let's say nascar involes 3 groups.
1. Those who run the show.
2. Those who particpate in the show.
3. Those who watch the show.
Now group 1 makes and enforces the rules, among other things. This group needs to make educated, well informed decisions which benfit the sport. If not, they are being dumb asses. In order to be a dumb ass at that level, one must be either very incompetent or suffering from some delusional effect. The delusional effect I thought of was smoking dope.
In all honesty, I consider those in categories 2 and 3 innocent bystanders up until the point in time they have the opportunity to learn the facts. At that point in time, their decision takes them down the path they choose.
B
boB
Guest
Man, some days I feel awfully old, but I can quite clearly recall when a "stock car" was just exactly that. It was just as it came from the manufacturer. Not very well suited for high speed competition at all, so those in positions of power allowed a few modifications "for safety".
Some of the very best racing I've ever seen was run with minimumal rules: engines must "show stock", or even better, engines are limited to 350 c.i. with 5 c.i. over allowed for wear.
Somewhere here in this wasteland of my office, I still have a rule book from the old NESMRA organization which had something like 12 printed rules for the super modifieds and I think there were about 17 rules for their late model series.
You know what? Those guys put on some of the best racing ever seen anywhere.
Then eveyone wanted bigger motors, more tire, wings for added downforce, all of which required more rules, and of course as speeds increased so did the cost and now there aren't too many folks around who ever heard of NESMRA or recall the great racing. And it was racing, nobody really worried much about the "show"; the racing was the show.
I think the thing we're all overlooking with all of the changes in NASCAR today is the fact that "the show" has become the most important thing. If a little racing occurs during the presentation of "the show", well that's OK, but we can't let that happen too often, the fans (if there are any real racing fans left) might start to demand more racing and less show; the sponsors may realize that is what they have supposed to be paying for all these many years, and some folks in fancy offices may start to see a decline in the black numbers on their bottom line.
Oh yeah, Henry, I haven't bothered to even watch most of the races the last couple of years either, let alone go out to the track. Besides declining health, the mobs of morons who seem to be attracted just got to be too much for either my wife or I to handle. And those are just the morons in the media centers, the garage area and pits: I don't think I'd dare to try the stands nowadays.
From what I observed the last few years I did make it to the big events, I have to wonder if some of those inhabitants of the cheap seats even qualify as members of the human race. Lots of them sure didn't show many of the attributes of human beings in the conduct of their behavior.
Like you said, the whole scene just became too much like a job one day, the fun was gone and although it bothers me in some ways, the direction the "sport" has taken isn't likely to draw me back any time soon. I too am content to stay in touch by reading, watching the odd sports reports and keeping in contact with those friends and acquaintances who haven't reached this point yet. I will still sneak off with the kids when they do an open test day; have even got my hands dirty a few times on those occasions.
Although, I did watch part of the IRL race on ABC last Sunday and it is too bad that FOX, NBC, TNT and the SPIKE TV producers don't spend some time watching the way those professionals present an automobile race. They actually are more concerned with the racing than with talking about some fool drivers burned crotch and how that's gonna effect his run for the C4C, or whatever.
RACING??
NOPE, not anymore. At least not at the upper levels of NASCAR.
It's all about the money, the pretty faces and "THE SHOW".
Whose wife is the hottest? What driver has the cutest buns? Or how about Mikey's hair-do? Who's doin' what to who and how many times did they do it?
Well, I guess you know what I mean?
If you don't, you haven't been around very long. Some of us recall what racing really can be, not what it has become with the huge influx of money and all the concern for "the show".
Perhaps it's time for someone to tell those high lords of the ring that they should take a look at where they came from before they make all these decissions on where they want and need to go?
Then let "the show" go on.
I yield to the guy in the pinstriped suit in the front row there.
Some of the very best racing I've ever seen was run with minimumal rules: engines must "show stock", or even better, engines are limited to 350 c.i. with 5 c.i. over allowed for wear.
Somewhere here in this wasteland of my office, I still have a rule book from the old NESMRA organization which had something like 12 printed rules for the super modifieds and I think there were about 17 rules for their late model series.
You know what? Those guys put on some of the best racing ever seen anywhere.
Then eveyone wanted bigger motors, more tire, wings for added downforce, all of which required more rules, and of course as speeds increased so did the cost and now there aren't too many folks around who ever heard of NESMRA or recall the great racing. And it was racing, nobody really worried much about the "show"; the racing was the show.
I think the thing we're all overlooking with all of the changes in NASCAR today is the fact that "the show" has become the most important thing. If a little racing occurs during the presentation of "the show", well that's OK, but we can't let that happen too often, the fans (if there are any real racing fans left) might start to demand more racing and less show; the sponsors may realize that is what they have supposed to be paying for all these many years, and some folks in fancy offices may start to see a decline in the black numbers on their bottom line.
Oh yeah, Henry, I haven't bothered to even watch most of the races the last couple of years either, let alone go out to the track. Besides declining health, the mobs of morons who seem to be attracted just got to be too much for either my wife or I to handle. And those are just the morons in the media centers, the garage area and pits: I don't think I'd dare to try the stands nowadays.
From what I observed the last few years I did make it to the big events, I have to wonder if some of those inhabitants of the cheap seats even qualify as members of the human race. Lots of them sure didn't show many of the attributes of human beings in the conduct of their behavior.
Like you said, the whole scene just became too much like a job one day, the fun was gone and although it bothers me in some ways, the direction the "sport" has taken isn't likely to draw me back any time soon. I too am content to stay in touch by reading, watching the odd sports reports and keeping in contact with those friends and acquaintances who haven't reached this point yet. I will still sneak off with the kids when they do an open test day; have even got my hands dirty a few times on those occasions.
Although, I did watch part of the IRL race on ABC last Sunday and it is too bad that FOX, NBC, TNT and the SPIKE TV producers don't spend some time watching the way those professionals present an automobile race. They actually are more concerned with the racing than with talking about some fool drivers burned crotch and how that's gonna effect his run for the C4C, or whatever.
RACING??
NOPE, not anymore. At least not at the upper levels of NASCAR.
It's all about the money, the pretty faces and "THE SHOW".
Whose wife is the hottest? What driver has the cutest buns? Or how about Mikey's hair-do? Who's doin' what to who and how many times did they do it?
Well, I guess you know what I mean?
If you don't, you haven't been around very long. Some of us recall what racing really can be, not what it has become with the huge influx of money and all the concern for "the show".
Perhaps it's time for someone to tell those high lords of the ring that they should take a look at where they came from before they make all these decissions on where they want and need to go?
Then let "the show" go on.
I yield to the guy in the pinstriped suit in the front row there.
B
boB
Guest
Hey mods,
What's this crap that I'm not allowed to edit my own post?
Little things like that have been known to get me rather upset to say the very least.
Thank you kindly!
What's this crap that I'm not allowed to edit my own post?
Little things like that have been known to get me rather upset to say the very least.
Thank you kindly!
D
DE_Wrangler_2
Guest
boB, that would tend to pee me off too!! 
But I think there's a time limit on how long you have to edit............I ran into it a couple times myself. I'm thinking it's about 10 mins.
But I think there's a time limit on how long you have to edit............I ran into it a couple times myself. I'm thinking it's about 10 mins.
B
boB
Guest
Henry,
I tried to edit my post to include the fact that if NASCAR wishes to have the Nextel series be THE premier racing series in all of racing, the very last thing they should be concerned with is controlling the costs to the teams.
With the poorest of drivers being multi-millionaires and the team owners pocketing their salaries from the monies they are able to obtain from the sponsors, just who the devil do they all think they're kidding when they start to cry about the costs of racing today?
If the owners are all that concerned, isn't it up to them to make the necessary changes in their spending habits?
But then again, this is supposed to be the top of the mountain, the very biggest and best, so I have to ask once more; why is cost of any concern at all?
In the end it will be the sponsors who impose any sort of cost controls, simply by saying, "That's all folks!". As long as those sponsors feel they are seeing a postive return on their investment, the owners are going to ask for more and more, not less and less.
Aww hell, at this stage of my life, it really doesn't matter one way or the other. It's a whole new world out there and who's to say whether it's for the better or worse?
Probably 40 or 50 years from now, some of these youngsters will be complaining about the same situations in what ever type of racing they're infatuated with as we are now.
And it won't make a rat's behind to whatever or whomever the powers behind the whole thing are then either.
I tried to edit my post to include the fact that if NASCAR wishes to have the Nextel series be THE premier racing series in all of racing, the very last thing they should be concerned with is controlling the costs to the teams.
With the poorest of drivers being multi-millionaires and the team owners pocketing their salaries from the monies they are able to obtain from the sponsors, just who the devil do they all think they're kidding when they start to cry about the costs of racing today?
If the owners are all that concerned, isn't it up to them to make the necessary changes in their spending habits?
But then again, this is supposed to be the top of the mountain, the very biggest and best, so I have to ask once more; why is cost of any concern at all?
In the end it will be the sponsors who impose any sort of cost controls, simply by saying, "That's all folks!". As long as those sponsors feel they are seeing a postive return on their investment, the owners are going to ask for more and more, not less and less.
Aww hell, at this stage of my life, it really doesn't matter one way or the other. It's a whole new world out there and who's to say whether it's for the better or worse?
Probably 40 or 50 years from now, some of these youngsters will be complaining about the same situations in what ever type of racing they're infatuated with as we are now.
And it won't make a rat's behind to whatever or whomever the powers behind the whole thing are then either.
B
boB
Guest
DEW2,
I thought we had something on the order of 10 minutes to edit our posts; I tried as soon as I had posted and was told that I was not allowed that option.
Hey, not a big deal, just sorta frustrating.
I'll probably get over it in three or four future lifetimes if I don't let it really bother me that much!
I thought we had something on the order of 10 minutes to edit our posts; I tried as soon as I had posted and was told that I was not allowed that option.
Hey, not a big deal, just sorta frustrating.
I'll probably get over it in three or four future lifetimes if I don't let it really bother me that much!
I'm sorry that you weren't allowed to edit your post, boB. I looked to see if there was a problem, but I couldn't find where anything is prohibiting you from editing your posts in the time allowed.
B
boB
Guest
Hey, like I said, No big thing, I'll get over it in a few more life times if I don't let it bother me.
Maybe is was unknowingly abducted by aliens, slipped into some sort of time warp or some other such explaination and did exceed my allotted ten minutes.
Didn't think that happened, but then again, it seems like every time I think, I get into all sorts of trouble.
Solution to that is simply don't bother to think! It could be dangerous or even hazardous to my health.
Say goodnight, boB!
Oh, it's not night? Just a cloudy, rainy day. Ok.
Maybe is was unknowingly abducted by aliens, slipped into some sort of time warp or some other such explaination and did exceed my allotted ten minutes.
Didn't think that happened, but then again, it seems like every time I think, I get into all sorts of trouble.
Solution to that is simply don't bother to think! It could be dangerous or even hazardous to my health.
Say goodnight, boB!
Oh, it's not night? Just a cloudy, rainy day. Ok.
W
Windsor377
Guest
Lot of good information there boB and presented in a better fashion that I believe I can right now. The show has in fact replaced the racing. Amazingly, nobody seems to care or want to care. Simm racing is on its way. That is the sure way to ensure no knowledge of the things circling around the track exists. Now is the prime time, since the majority of professed "fans" admit they could care less about manufacturer identity (though if you're ever at the track you know for a fact they are lying through their teeth...yet the inclination is there).
I can't really add anything to your thoughts except to say keep it up. Maybe someone else, somewhere will put their money where their mouth is and just say no...no more. That will influence the sponsors and nexthell and maybe even the brain dead morons in control of nascar.
PS...I'm still amazed no one has yet to show any interest in understanding why the gear and tranny rules are dumb ass rules for the "premier" series....icing on the cake...
I can't really add anything to your thoughts except to say keep it up. Maybe someone else, somewhere will put their money where their mouth is and just say no...no more. That will influence the sponsors and nexthell and maybe even the brain dead morons in control of nascar.
PS...I'm still amazed no one has yet to show any interest in understanding why the gear and tranny rules are dumb ass rules for the "premier" series....icing on the cake...
B
boB
Guest
But Henry,
It's all in the name of parity. We have to do all that we can to insure an exciting show for the fans.
Racing simply isn't exciting enough for them in this day and age.
Then again, you knew that, didn't you.
It's all in the name of parity. We have to do all that we can to insure an exciting show for the fans.
Racing simply isn't exciting enough for them in this day and age.
Then again, you knew that, didn't you.
W
Windsor377
Guest
Yep. I hope I'm around long enough to see the pendulum swing one more time and take "this" all away.
C
chuck
Guest
hey Windsor my answer to the the chevy vs ford 302 question is the chevy
had all the power in the high RPM's the ford i know nothing about. how they did it
take a 350 block shorten the stroke and you got a 302 ci engine that'll push 9000 RPM's
in the 60's. put that in the beautiful car ever made and you got a legend.
the gear limits and spoiler cuts are IMO NASCAR's way of stopping Rick Hendrick from pushing the envolope an further in that direction. the "strange setups" many drivers have been trying are what Jimmie Johnson and Chad Knaus have been using and dominating with up untill the last month or so. super high rated shocks in the rear that keep the spoiler in the air. Roush and Yates could be second but Hendrick is the team thats leading the pack in engine technology.
had all the power in the high RPM's the ford i know nothing about. how they did it
take a 350 block shorten the stroke and you got a 302 ci engine that'll push 9000 RPM's
in the 60's. put that in the beautiful car ever made and you got a legend.
the gear limits and spoiler cuts are IMO NASCAR's way of stopping Rick Hendrick from pushing the envolope an further in that direction. the "strange setups" many drivers have been trying are what Jimmie Johnson and Chad Knaus have been using and dominating with up untill the last month or so. super high rated shocks in the rear that keep the spoiler in the air. Roush and Yates could be second but Hendrick is the team thats leading the pack in engine technology.
B
boB
Guest
Chuck,
Actually the Chevrolet 5.0 litre engine was around long before the 350 c.i. version was introduced.
We used to bore out the old 283 to get what we called a 301 c.i. engine; Chevrolet introduced the 327 c.i. version in the 1960 or '61 Corvette and it with that, it was a matter of simply swapping in a 283 crankshaft to get the same result. Only Chevy called it a 302 c.i. or 5.0 litre.
I'd have to check the specs on the Ford 302 c.i. I'm not sure exactly how they increased the size from the 289. I can't recall if it was just a bigger bore or combination of larger bore and longer stroke. Henry will be able to tell us that without having to look it up, I'm sure.
As far as Hendrick being that far ahead of the rest of the engine builders; I think you'll find that all of them are pretty doggone close.
Penske's built some of the most radical and expensive pieces that I've seen though. They've led the way with ultra light internal parts, new materials, and leading edge in the technology department.
I think the Hendrick cars probably have about the best all around balance of engine output and reliability, chassis and handling, body aerodynamics along with the all-important driver and crew chief communication at the present time, and their results show it.
Actually the Chevrolet 5.0 litre engine was around long before the 350 c.i. version was introduced.
We used to bore out the old 283 to get what we called a 301 c.i. engine; Chevrolet introduced the 327 c.i. version in the 1960 or '61 Corvette and it with that, it was a matter of simply swapping in a 283 crankshaft to get the same result. Only Chevy called it a 302 c.i. or 5.0 litre.
I'd have to check the specs on the Ford 302 c.i. I'm not sure exactly how they increased the size from the 289. I can't recall if it was just a bigger bore or combination of larger bore and longer stroke. Henry will be able to tell us that without having to look it up, I'm sure.
As far as Hendrick being that far ahead of the rest of the engine builders; I think you'll find that all of them are pretty doggone close.
Penske's built some of the most radical and expensive pieces that I've seen though. They've led the way with ultra light internal parts, new materials, and leading edge in the technology department.
I think the Hendrick cars probably have about the best all around balance of engine output and reliability, chassis and handling, body aerodynamics along with the all-important driver and crew chief communication at the present time, and their results show it.
W
Windsor377
Guest
Pretty good shot! Thanks for giving it thought. You are right, the 302 Chevy ran at higher rpm.....looks like I'll have to return with the details....something came up here....back in a bit...
W
Windsor377
Guest
OK, back.
It was interesting. The Z/28s in T/A competition at the time had port volumes significantly smaller than what the Boss 302 had. One would think by looking the Boss 302 was mad to rpm. Many folks tried to build the engines that way and would up disappointed.
The huge cross section of the Boss 302 heads required velocity to make them work. So rpm seemed the obvious choice to many. These same folks also ignored a built in design feature of the engines. They came from the factory with 1.7:1 rocker arm ratios as opposed to the Chevys 1.5:1. The Fords also came with cam ramps with less duration, but provided more overall valve lift with the rockers. They also had more exhaust side bias as far as valve timiing was concerned. The exhaust port, though appearing to be pretty big, was not designed for high rpm use. The flowbench showed it to be a mid-range performer. That was the true tell tale, given the rules at the time. No wholesale porting was allowed. The smart Ford guys (Holman-Moody) built upon it's strengths and had engines with much fatter torque curves than the Z/28s had. In the end of the '69 season, the upstart Holman-Moody team tied in overall wins but lost by a couple points in a very exciting season. The tides turned in 1970.
Still, the point remains that two very different approaches proved to be very competitive using two very different sets of strengths.
This is a macro example of using different approaches to achieve that same goal. nascar thinks they can stifle the engine technology by limiting the gearing the teams can use. Obvious nascar in ingorant to that old sae hp alogorithm that tells us:
hp = torque*rpm/5252
Both torque and rpm are equal contributors to hp, in that neither requires factoring to come up with hp. RPM is a big gainer, no doubt, because that is the easiest path for gains. But smart engine guys will take advantage of the example of the Boss 302 above and come up with combinations that make very strong torque numbers in order to out leverage those constricting gears. In turn that extra torque will build more hp and the smart guys will begin increasing rpm still.
The not so smart guys will break a lot of valve train parts........again and again.
All teams will need new heads, cams, intakes, exhaust systems, gears......AND ton more egine R&D work....of course we all know the big smart team will benefit here much more rapidly that the little small teams.
little boy france and his band of idiots are on to another big winner here...
....more to say, but gotta go for now...OopS first, boB was right about the old 301 too!! Plus the 350 has larger main diameters than the 283/302/327. Back then they said it was a 283 crank in a 327 block!...and the Ford 302 was a stroked 289!...Later....
It was interesting. The Z/28s in T/A competition at the time had port volumes significantly smaller than what the Boss 302 had. One would think by looking the Boss 302 was mad to rpm. Many folks tried to build the engines that way and would up disappointed.
The huge cross section of the Boss 302 heads required velocity to make them work. So rpm seemed the obvious choice to many. These same folks also ignored a built in design feature of the engines. They came from the factory with 1.7:1 rocker arm ratios as opposed to the Chevys 1.5:1. The Fords also came with cam ramps with less duration, but provided more overall valve lift with the rockers. They also had more exhaust side bias as far as valve timiing was concerned. The exhaust port, though appearing to be pretty big, was not designed for high rpm use. The flowbench showed it to be a mid-range performer. That was the true tell tale, given the rules at the time. No wholesale porting was allowed. The smart Ford guys (Holman-Moody) built upon it's strengths and had engines with much fatter torque curves than the Z/28s had. In the end of the '69 season, the upstart Holman-Moody team tied in overall wins but lost by a couple points in a very exciting season. The tides turned in 1970.
Still, the point remains that two very different approaches proved to be very competitive using two very different sets of strengths.
This is a macro example of using different approaches to achieve that same goal. nascar thinks they can stifle the engine technology by limiting the gearing the teams can use. Obvious nascar in ingorant to that old sae hp alogorithm that tells us:
hp = torque*rpm/5252
Both torque and rpm are equal contributors to hp, in that neither requires factoring to come up with hp. RPM is a big gainer, no doubt, because that is the easiest path for gains. But smart engine guys will take advantage of the example of the Boss 302 above and come up with combinations that make very strong torque numbers in order to out leverage those constricting gears. In turn that extra torque will build more hp and the smart guys will begin increasing rpm still.
The not so smart guys will break a lot of valve train parts........again and again.
All teams will need new heads, cams, intakes, exhaust systems, gears......AND ton more egine R&D work....of course we all know the big smart team will benefit here much more rapidly that the little small teams.
little boy france and his band of idiots are on to another big winner here...
....more to say, but gotta go for now...OopS first, boB was right about the old 301 too!! Plus the 350 has larger main diameters than the 283/302/327. Back then they said it was a 283 crank in a 327 block!...and the Ford 302 was a stroked 289!...Later....
W
Windsor377
Guest
....actually in my haste I got the main bearing diameter situation backwards. The Chevy 283/302/327 had larger mains in #1, #2, #3 and #4. They matched in #5...and in '69 the 327 and I think the 302 matched the 350s main bearings down the line...anyhow, that's how they came up iwith the 302 Chevy.
The 302 Ford had it's own story. The Boss was a stroked 289 with a pretty beefy block and crank. The con rods were a bit shorter (5.150" vs 5.155"). The plain jane W style 302 was also stroked from a 289, but also got shorter con rods still (5.090" vs 5.155") from the factory.
Now, back to the nascar topic. The idiots who proposed this stupid gear and tranny rule are thinking that hey a tall gear will just slow the cars down. Yeah. But the teams will work just as hardon getting back hp in the lower ranges as they do on the abominations called RP engines. How much $$$ do those engines save the teams?
The shallow minded, ignorant thinking behind this is that all one will do is close up cam LSA and maybe shorten up duration a bit. The 16 year old kid next door might do that. At the level of cup with all the sponsor $$$ serious changes will happen. Yes LSA will need to be shortened up (maybe) and duration as well, but know for a certainty, the same area under the lift curve will be the target. That means keeping the valves on the seat longer, but then opening MUCH fast and MUCH higher, staying on the nose longer and then closing MUCH faster. HELLO HARMONICS! HELLO valve train failure for the folks that do it wrong. For those doing it right, HELLO TONS OF DYNO TIME and BUSTED parts along the way. HELLO new intakes, headers, X chambers, boom tubes.....nice Ti parts by the way. Yep, that will save the small teams a LOT....AND THEY WILL STILL BE BEHIND THE BIG BOYS!!!!!!!!
What an idiotic rule change.
The 302 Ford had it's own story. The Boss was a stroked 289 with a pretty beefy block and crank. The con rods were a bit shorter (5.150" vs 5.155"). The plain jane W style 302 was also stroked from a 289, but also got shorter con rods still (5.090" vs 5.155") from the factory.
Now, back to the nascar topic. The idiots who proposed this stupid gear and tranny rule are thinking that hey a tall gear will just slow the cars down. Yeah. But the teams will work just as hardon getting back hp in the lower ranges as they do on the abominations called RP engines. How much $$$ do those engines save the teams?
The shallow minded, ignorant thinking behind this is that all one will do is close up cam LSA and maybe shorten up duration a bit. The 16 year old kid next door might do that. At the level of cup with all the sponsor $$$ serious changes will happen. Yes LSA will need to be shortened up (maybe) and duration as well, but know for a certainty, the same area under the lift curve will be the target. That means keeping the valves on the seat longer, but then opening MUCH fast and MUCH higher, staying on the nose longer and then closing MUCH faster. HELLO HARMONICS! HELLO valve train failure for the folks that do it wrong. For those doing it right, HELLO TONS OF DYNO TIME and BUSTED parts along the way. HELLO new intakes, headers, X chambers, boom tubes.....nice Ti parts by the way. Yep, that will save the small teams a LOT....AND THEY WILL STILL BE BEHIND THE BIG BOYS!!!!!!!!
What an idiotic rule change.