Has MTJ Gained a Step?

Nitro Dude said:
I wouldn't be surprised if one of the Kyles wins the championship this year. Obviously I'm rooting for the #5 Kyle.
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I would. I think Larson is still so hard wired to run sprint races. He doesn't seem like he's able to stay focused consistently for an entire race. Clean air matters. The 19 was better on the long run, but if Kyle doesnt speed on pit road, he probably takes the lead late in stage 2, or early in stage 3.

Even if he doesn't he would have had a better opportunity to compete for the win because of track position. He also wouldn't have had to abuse his stuff.

Vegas. Atlanta. Phoenix. Kansas. Darlington.

All races he's had race winning speed, and he blew his opportunity. Not saying he would have won all 5, but he needs to put entire races together before he becomes a legit championship threat.

He's the most talented driver in the field. But there's more to being a race car driver than raw talent, and he's missing some of that right now, imo.

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jaqua19 said:
I would. I think Larson is still so hard wired to run sprint races. He doesn't seem like he's able to stay focused consistently for an entire race. Clean air matters. The 19 was better on the long run, but if Kyle doesnt speed on pit road, he probably takes the lead late in stage 2, or early in stage 3.

Even if he doesn't he would have had a better opportunity to compete for the win because of track position. He also wouldn't have had to abuse his stuff.

Vegas. Atlanta. Phoenix. Kansas. Darlington.

All races he's had race winning speed, and he blew his opportunity. Not saying he would have won all 5, but he needs to put entire races together before he becomes a legit championship threat.

He's the most talented driver in the field. But there's more to being a race car driver than raw talent, and he's missing some of that right now, imo.

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I agree with a lot of what you are saying. But, he has 12 more races to hone his skills and get his head straight. As far as his pit road speeding penalty I thought after he made it back to the front he had changed his used up tires and had fresh ones for the shootout at the end. I can't remember what lap he got the penalty or what lap he made it back to the front again. I do know that he said post race that his car wasn't very good all day and that he was surprised he actually caught MTJ for a shot at the end. He definitely used his tires up trying to pass MTJ because MTJ had a better car then he did.
 
Nitro Dude said:
I wouldn't be surprised if one of the Kyles wins the championship this year. Obviously I'm rooting for the #5 Kyle in that awesome looking blue and white Chevy. :D
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Dunno about the #18, but I think the #19 and the #11 will have something to say about it.
 
jaqua19 said:
The 19 was better on the long run, but if Kyle doesnt speed on pit road, he probably takes the lead late in stage 2, or early in stage 3.
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Brilliant point. This was lost in the stupid costumes in the booth and constant babble about nothing. Great insight right here.
 
jaqua19 said:
All races he's had race winning speed, and he blew his opportunity. Not saying he would have won all 5, but he needs to put entire races together before he becomes a legit championship threat.
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Daniels has something to do with that. It's just a matter of time, really.
 
jaqua19 said:
A very good system driver who is able to execute with an elite team, very reliable, and gets everything out of the car, no more, no less. A champion, but a clear step below every single champion since 2001, and a few non-champion like Hamlin, Edwards, Mark Martin in the raw talent department, and I won't tolerate any challenge to that.

Other than that, he has had one of the most dominant 5-7 year stretches of the last 20 years. I would like to see him win with a car that isn't dominant before I feel comfortable admitting he's an elite talent.

Good enough to take advantage of a great situation, like Dale Jarrett. But the discrepancy in the 78 between he and Kurt, and then with Pearn, in a gen 6 car the most the field has bitched about being too easy to drive, I just can't give him that. Busch, Harvick, Elliot, Larson, Logano, Keselowski are all superior talents right now.

Is he elite in spite of that? If so, sure.

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You’re really gonna die on this hill huh
 
MTJ is one of the guys I cheer for. He only had 3 wins in his first 369 starts. Dude was looking like a career journeyman & out of nowhere he turned it up & is now a shoe-in for the HOF. That's impressive. He's pretty much a modern Dale Jarrett.
 
I think he is going to drive into his late 40s tbh. I think Hamlin or Busch retires before him tbh.
 
DaBiff1618 said:
You’re deliberately sandbagging so if Toyota wins you can paint it as an underdog story lmao
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Nope. Nice try. Lots of space up here in your head though.
 
MTJ has always had the skill, but not quite the equipment bar maybe MWR. He’s gone from an underdog to a surefire Hall of Famer. The biggest question mark that remains now is if he will add on another driver’s title or two before retirement... and to be the subject of that sort of conversation is telling enough.
 
Nitro Dude said:
I agree with a lot of what you are saying. But, he has 12 more races to hone his skills and get his head straight. As far as his pit road speeding penalty I thought after he made it back to the front he had changed his used up tires and had fresh ones for the shootout at the end. I can't remember what lap he got the penalty or what lap he made it back to the front again. I do know that he said post race that his car wasn't very good all day and that he was surprised he actually caught MTJ for a shot at the end. He definitely used his tires up trying to pass MTJ because MTJ had a better car then he did.
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I think Kyle is just that fast to be honest. I like to see it. Truex' was faster, but on fresh/somewhat fresh tires, Kyle was just simply faster. Just was flat out outrunning him. That's how it should be. Since 2013, since the beginning of the gen 6 car really, these races are won in the garage. Larson was a 5th place car most of the day and was fast enough to run down the dominant car.

I will say this. I have faith in Larson. I think he will be a Champion. But if he retires without a cup, with all that talent? Bust. I think he's that talented.

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Revman said:
Daniels has something to do with that. It's just a matter of time, really.
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It was bad with the 48 last year too.

Cliff is an awesome leader and clearly can bring fast race cars to the track. He just has a hard time keeping up with the track.

But even with that, I think Larson's overall race craft is a bit below some of the other best drivers in the sport. Talent isn't the only attribute that makes a good racecar driver, imo, and I think Kyle's defeciencies make him a bit too reliant on his talent right now. As I said, it just seems like he can't stay focused an entire race. I think he gets tired. I think when he lacks confidence when things aren't going perfectly. I think he isn't the best at diagnosing the car, and I think he isn't the best at managing a race.

The speed is there, but I think he needs a bit more until he can start winning consistently.

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jaqua19 said:
It was bad with the 48 last year too.

Cliff is an awesome leader and clearly can bring fast race cars to the track. He just has a hard time keeping up with the track.

But even with that, I think Larson's overall race craft is a bit below some of the other best drivers in the sport. Talent isn't the only attribute that makes a good racecar driver, imo, and I think Kyle's defeciencies make him a bit too reliant on his talent right now. As I said, it just seems like he can't stay focused an entire race. I think he gets tired. I think when he lacks confidence when things aren't going perfectly. I think he isn't the best at diagnosing the car, and I think he isn't the best at managing a race.

The speed is there, but I think he needs a bit more until he can start winning consistently.

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Like I said, this will come with time. I think the preparation at Hendrick is exposing some of this. Now that it is exposed, it will be addressed.
 
jaqua19 said:
A very good system driver who is able to execute with an elite team, very reliable, and gets everything out of the car, no more, no less. A champion, but a clear step below every single champion since 2001, and a few non-champion like Hamlin, Edwards, Mark Martin in the raw talent department, and I won't tolerate any challenge to that.

Other than that, he has had one of the most dominant 5-7 year stretches of the last 20 years. I would like to see him win with a car that isn't dominant before I feel comfortable admitting he's an elite talent.

Good enough to take advantage of a great situation, like Dale Jarrett. But the discrepancy in the 78 between he and Kurt, and then with Pearn, in a gen 6 car the most the field has bitched about being too easy to drive, I just can't give him that. Busch, Harvick, Elliot, Larson, Logano, Keselowski are all superior talents right now.

Is he elite in spite of that? If so, sure.

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Give me that B List driver who can take advantage of what he has over the A Lister who can't. I am not sure that Joe Montana is the greatest quarterback of all time based on talent, but he sure as hell is in the mix in regard to results. Same thing with Brady. I can't name more talented quarterbacks who didn't win because they are irrelevant.

MTJ has taken a big bite out of that "system driver" piece with success under Small. The narrative was that he would fall flat after Pearn. While I do agree with you to an extent, I think it is reasonable to conclude that he might be better than advertised. What is going on this year is pretty damn impressive.
 
Revman said:
Like I said, this will come with time. I think the preparation at Hendrick is exposing some of this. Now that it is exposed, it will be addressed.
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Agreed.

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Revman said:
MTJ has taken a big bite out of that "system driver" piece with success under Small. The narrative was that he would fall flat after Pearn
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Wrong thinking. If you were good in math at school, credit goes to the teacher who could get you to understand it. Doesn't mean when you left school you forgot how to do math.
Pearn was Truex's teacher and was able to raise his abilities and confidence.
Small was lucky to get such an accomplished driver and is doing very good at providing what Truex needs.

Drivers like Kyle Bush eventually quit listening to their CC and so they change them frequently.
 
Team Penske said:
Wrong thinking. If you were good in math at school, credit goes to the teacher who could get you to understand it. Doesn't mean when you left school you forgot how to do math.
Pearn was Truex's teacher and was able to raise his abilities and confidence.
Small was lucky to get such an accomplished driver and is doing very good at providing what Truex needs.

Drivers like Kyle Bush eventually quit listening to their CC and so they change them frequently.
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First, Pearn isn't a driver coach. He is an engineer and a crew chief. Second, IF Pearn was responsible for raising MTJ's abilities and confidence, that ability and confidence remained after Pearn hit the slopes. That's on MTJ. Pearn isn't still responsible. Third, Small is a good crew chief, but my point was that this wasn't the narrative last year, and the thinking was that because MTJ wasn't an elite talent, a mediocre crew chief + this driver produced results that were less than with Pearn. Now, if we are walking down the path that MTJ is once again relevant because Small is now considered elite....that is just weak. At some point, it makes sense to embrace MTJ's ability. Maybe he is making the crew chiefs look good instead of the other way around.

Kyle Busch didn't change his crew chief. His crew chief changed his driver.....and I don't blame him. He backed his guys over the driver who was overstepping his team responsibilities. I posted immediately that I didn't like what went down there one bit, but my respect for Adam grew exponentially and I was already a big fan of his.
 
If Chad Knaus and Jimmie can split up then I don’t see what the big deal is about Kyle Busch/Adam Stevens. Kyle has had more speed unloading off the truck this season as opposed to last season and already has a win. Bell has a win as well but I believe that’s his only top 5 on the year. The grass ain’t always greener. Kyle Busch has won with 6 different crew chiefs in the cup series. This reminds me of people siding with Mike McCarthy in the Rodgers/McCarthy divorce and we saw how that turned out.
 
DaBiff1618 said:
If Chad Knaus and Jimmie can split up then I don’t see what the big deal is about Kyle Busch/Adam Stevens. Kyle has had more speed unloading off the truck this season as opposed to last season and already has a win. Bell has a win as well but I believe that’s his only top 5 on the year. The grass ain’t always greener. Kyle Busch has won with 6 different crew chiefs in the cup series. This reminds me of people siding with Mike McCarthy in the Rodgers/McCarthy divorce and we saw how that turned out.
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I have no idea what your are talking about with the divorce deal, but not having to deal with a self important a hole has nothing to do with winning this or that. It's about principle.
 
Revman said:
First, Pearn isn't a driver coach. He is an engineer and a crew chief. Second, IF Pearn was responsible for raising MTJ's abilities and confidence, that ability and confidence remained after Pearn hit the slopes. That's on MTJ. Pearn isn't still responsible. Third, Small is a good crew chief, but my point was that this wasn't the narrative last year, and the thinking was that because MTJ wasn't an elite talent, a mediocre crew chief + this driver produced results that were less than with Pearn. Now, if we are walking down the path that MTJ is once again relevant because Small is now considered elite....that is just weak. At some point, it makes sense to embrace MTJ's ability. Maybe he is making the crew chiefs look good instead of the other way around.

Kyle Busch didn't change his crew chief. His crew chief changed his driver.....and I don't blame him. He backed his guys over the driver who was overstepping his team responsibilities. I posted immediately that I didn't like what went down there one bit, but my respect for Adam grew exponentially and I was already a big fan of his.
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Try reading things with an open mind.
 
Revman said:
Like I said, this will come with time. I think the preparation at Hendrick is exposing some of this. Now that it is exposed, it will be addressed.
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I agree somewhat. Larson is so fast and has seemed unbeatable for the first 3/4 or so of several races this year.

What I'm wondering is if perhaps he is still getting used to the races being so long again after missing last season and running dirt. I believe he is still getting settled back in and getting used to the length of cup races again and gets tired towards the end sometimes, be it mentally or physically. If so this could explain some of the issues and should improve as the season continues and he gets used to it more. Just a thought but honestly a scary one for the rest of the field if true.

He really seems like he has the POTENTIAL to be a modern Jeff Gordon to me, if only he can grasp it.

Also the preparation issues at HMS (his engine at Talladega and Chase's "unapproved adjustments" etc) amaze me for a team with such an established record of excellence through the years. It could definitely be having an effect.

But that being said, and to get back on topic, Truex to me seems to be returning to the form of his "Pearn days" and proving a lot of people wrong this season. I do also agree with you that perhaps Pearn helped Truex gain confidence he never had before and that is something he will always have and probably makes a big difference.
 
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Revman said:
First, Pearn isn't a driver coach. He is an engineer and a crew chief. Second, IF Pearn was responsible for raising MTJ's abilities and confidence, that ability and confidence remained after Pearn hit the slopes. That's on MTJ. Pearn isn't still responsible. Third, Small is a good crew chief, but my point was that this wasn't the narrative last year, and the thinking was that because MTJ wasn't an elite talent, a mediocre crew chief + this driver produced results that were less than with Pearn. Now, if we are walking down the path that MTJ is once again relevant because Small is now considered elite....that is just weak. At some point, it makes sense to embrace MTJ's ability. Maybe he is making the crew chiefs look good instead of the other way around.

Kyle Busch didn't change his crew chief. His crew chief changed his driver.....and I don't blame him. He backed his guys over the driver who was overstepping his team responsibilities. I posted immediately that I didn't like what went down there one bit, but my respect for Adam grew exponentially and I was already a big fan of his.
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What was it that went down? I thought it was a general decision by Stevens. I didn't realize SOMETHING happened?

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jaqua19 said:
What was it that went down? I thought it was a general decision by Stevens. I didn't realize SOMETHING happened?

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KB made a demand for a personnel change, and Adam said, "No." KB considered it Adam quitting on him. I consider it having large attachments. I have been consistent and clear that I have 0 respect for KB trying to push Adam around. Adam Stevens is my favorite crew chief.
 
Revman said:
KB made a demand for a personnel change, and Adam said, "No." KB considered it Adam quitting on him. I consider it having large attachments. I have been consistent and clear that I have 0 respect for KB trying to push Adam around. Adam Stevens is my favorite crew chief.
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I wonder if Stevens called Kyle “tough guy” or “cowboy”.
 
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