Have Teams Found the Lost Downforce?

AdoubleU24

AdoubleU24

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So we all saw the race this past Saturday, and we all saw the dreaded aero push rear its ugly head again for really the first time this season.

Most of us would equate this to the fact that it was a night race on a newer racing surface that hasn't lended itself to much tire wear over the years, but I've heard a few people today (mainly Dave Moody, who for the record I am not a fan of) theorizing that teams more than likely have re-discovered and made up for the lost down force from the beginning of the season until now.

Thoughts?
 
AdoubleU24 said:
So we all saw the race this past Saturday, and we all saw the dreaded aero push rear its ugly head again for really the first time this season.

Most of us would equate this to the fact that it was a night race on a newer racing surface that hasn't lended itself to much tire wear over the years, but I've heard a few people today (mainly Dave Moody, who for the record I am not a fan of) theorizing that teams more than likely have re-discovered and made up for the lost down force from the beginning of the season until now.

Thoughts?
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Aero push never went away ... the changes reduced it.

Apparently there's a lot of work going on under the cars to find gains. No idea how much success they've had with that.
 
Based on nothing more than intuition and gut feel, plus a healthy amount of hope, I'm going with "night race on a newer racing surface."

Aunty is correct that aero push was never eliminated, but last week the Clean Air Is King Syndrome seemed more prominent than any race this year. I sort of expected this, based on the prior nature of Kansas racing from last year.

No doubt the teams are hard at work. I am encouraged that Nascar seems to be saying all the right things about future rules changing to compensate for aerodynamic progress the teams may find. I would love to have been a fly on the wall last Wednesday when the team owners had their quarterly meeting with Nascar brass.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Have teams found the lost down-force?

Denny Hamlin and Brad Keselowski say no.
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Brad has said this year that NASCAR needs to reduce downforce even more because the teams have found a lot of it back.

Over the off-season alone it is known in inner circles that teams found about half of that reduced downforce and are probably even better off now. NASCAR needs to step in and reduce the splitter and spoiler sizes once again.
 
kansas is a terrible track I was pretty disappointed when they got a second date. lets keep in mind up till now the big tracks they have run it on have all had a pretty ruff surface. The package IMO has also helped on the smaller tracks like richmond and phoenix. kansas has newer pavement and typically one racing groove. although this last race we did see a way bigger grove that we typically do. the other problem with the race is the lack of tire fall off, KB won with over 20 more laps on his tires. Tire wear fixes alot of the single file racing. The biggest impact of the new package is watch the cars coming off the corners. the fastest way is usually clear out to the wall on the exit of the corner. often you will see cars nose to tail off the corners. this was not possible with the old package. in most cases.
 
1. Typical Kansas

2. Harvick said he ran over some debris and he got tight. Provided photo evidence of the chunk of splitter missing

3. Im sure teams have found plenty more since Atlanta

4. I agree with more dirty air around and under the car with a tire with much more fall off
 
They should reintroduce a ride-height rule and get the cars up in the air a bit (except for super speedways) to keep the downforce low.
 
No chance they'll do anything that permits more air under the cars.
 
aunty dive said:
No chance they'll do anything that permits more air under the cars.
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There were no more or less rollovers when the cars rode a couple inches higher.

2vi0b9e.jpg

2vi0b9e.jpg
 
Ok. When they raise the splitter and / or the ride height I will be more than happy to admit I'm wrong.

I don't expect that to happen. The cars referenced above had far more downforce than is exerted now.
 
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I do not know why nobody complained with the miniature cars of the early 1990s Those Pocono races were painful with 14 second wins.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
View attachment 18880
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that is not what that car would looked like in the turns. remember coil binding? what they would do is use a massive front sway bar, When the car started lateral load of the corner weight would transfer to the right side of the car, with a massive sway bar this also actually lifted or tucked up the left front tire, having the effect of lowering the front of the car and sealing off the front air dam, the air also would play a part in helping this action. I can only speculate but it was probably a funky setup to get used to driving as a driver. Your actually use side load to lift the left tire up the wheel well. probably took a good bit of getting used to because it was the opposite of what you wanted for mechanical grip. It could have also been one of those things where if you didn't drive fast enough the car didn't have the grip it would at a faster speed.
 
hidesert cowboy said:
that is not what that car would looked like in the turns. remember coil binding? what they would do is use a massive front sway bar, When the car started lateral load of the corner weight would transfer to the right side of the car, with a massive sway bar this also actually lifted or tucked up the left front tire, having the effect of lowering the front of the car and sealing off the front air dam, the air also would play a part in helping this action. I can only speculate but it was probably a funky setup to get used to driving as a driver. Your actually use side load to lift the left tire up the wheel well. probably took a good bit of getting used to because it was the opposite of what you wanted for mechanical grip. It could have also been one of those things where if you didn't drive fast enough the car didn't have the grip it would at a faster speed.
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I think this is what you are referring to. On a side note, in terms of looking like stock cars at least they have made some progress since 2007. Yeesh..
 
hidesert cowboy said:
that is not what that car would looked like in the turns. remember coil binding? what they would do is use a massive front sway bar, When the car started lateral load of the corner weight would transfer to the right side of the car, with a massive sway bar this also actually lifted or tucked up the left front tire, having the effect of lowering the front of the car and sealing off the front air dam, the air also would play a part in helping this action. I can only speculate but it was probably a funky setup to get used to driving as a driver. Your actually use side load to lift the left tire up the wheel well. probably took a good bit of getting used to because it was the opposite of what you wanted for mechanical grip. It could have also been one of those things where if you didn't drive fast enough the car didn't have the grip it would at a faster speed.
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I understand all of that.

Point I was making is that the cars dont need to be sucked to the pavement for 4 hours straight like they are now, to produce good racing.

4tires17gals said:
I do not know why nobody complained with the miniature cars of the early 1990s Those Pocono races were painful with 14 second wins.
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Pocono is a terrible track to begin with if you looking for tight racing lap after lap. All about engineering prowess.
 
cheesepuffs said:
Brad has said this year that NASCAR needs to reduce downforce even more because the teams have found a lot of it back.

Over the off-season alone it is known in inner circles that teams found about half of that reduced downforce and are probably even better off now. NASCAR needs to step in and reduce the splitter and spoiler sizes once again.
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It was just a little sarcasm.

Of course they are closing the gap on the down-force. That's what they do. It's what they'll continue to do. Seems to be the life cycle of NASCAR. NASCAR makes a change. Teams reinvent the wheel to play catch up. NASCAR makes more changes. It think it is NASCAR's turn once again.
 
You can't be prepared for everything but why doesn't Nascar have a team of dedicated test pilots that go to certain tracks and test different types of tires and ascertain changes that may be needed in order to put on a good show prior to the race being run? It may not be perfect but we are way past the point of bringing the wrong type of tire to the track or excusing bad racing for 5 years after a repave.
 
I just think it's funny how these teams and drivers complain about the inability to pass, and put on a good show, but then turn around and counteract what NASCAR has done to appease them in their gripes. They basically engineer their way right back into the same unpleasant hole that they found themselves in before. Too smart for their own good I say.
 
Maybe they ain't as smart as all their money makes them believe they are.
With all the safety in place today, there is little danger of them being maimed or killed. Salaries should reflect that.
 
The other funny thing is that the team owners fought against aero package changes that would take away downforce for years on the basis that it would "cost too much". Then, when NASCAR finally makes the change they dump millions into RND to get the downforce back. It's the same thing they'll be saying this season when the drivers and sport want to take more away. "It will cost too much to change now". Yet, they've already spent way more money to get the downforce back, which is making the mid season change more likely in the first place.
 
It's what they do ... what they've always done.

Money "saved" by this or that change is simply plastered onto the cars elsewhere.
 
IDK much about anything technical with Nascar but it seems to me that smart men and women always have devised ways to overcome the rules in place which leads to more rules and changes and so on and so on.
 
These teams will keep tinkering with it until we have the clean air olympics again. NASCAR needs to respond accordingly
 
DaBiff1618 said:
These teams will keep tinkering with it until we have the clean air olympics again. NASCAR needs to respond accordingly
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I agree and can definitely understand with the degree of R&D these teams perform that they can constantly advance.

It's really amazing tho they can successfully do so with all the restrictions they seem to have.
 
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