If NASCAR is trying to be a true playoff, why is Homestead not a head to head race?

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Serious question in the title. Is NASCAR seriously worried about both cars wrecking out of Homestead, or what? It just seems odd to me considering NASCAR decided to add the stage points and playoff points that carry over all the way to Homestead, why they couldn't adjust the Chase fields for all 3 series. I feel like these moves would help the rest of the Chase and turn Homestead into less of a 4 car gimmick, but who knows, maybe the cars racing it for the title would wreck out.

Cup Series: 16 > 8 > 4 > 2
Xfinity: 8 > 4 > 2
Trucks: 8 > 4 > 2

Maybe I am just being the usual NASCAR fan that nitpicks at their moves. Interested to hear any discussion.
 
Probably so they can (try to) generate more storylines and interest having another couple of drivers in there. And it worked for branding/marketing with the whole "Championship Four" thing at Homestead, like how the NCAA Tournament concludes with the Final Four and everything is decked out with the "The Road to the Final Four" and "The Road Ends Here" and all that. The whole thing was a big ripoff of March Madness anyways with the Chase Grid (bracket) and the accompanying Grid games and competitions you could fill out, and they had their own cutesy names like the Elite Eight (Eliminator Eight), Challenger Sixteen (Sweet Sixteen) and whatnot.

Besides everyone seeing through that they forgot that the big finales were culminations of head-to-head battles that had gone on for weeks on end. Stewart vs. Edwards. Johnson vs. Keselowski. There's not really opportunity for that to develop now.
 
That's actually a really interesting point. Maybe a 50 lap shootout between the top two teams. No holds barred on the race car except for safety equipment. Illegal motors and all, lol.
 
AuzGrams said:
Serious question in the title. Is NASCAR seriously worried about both cars wrecking out of Homestead, or what? It just seems odd to me considering NASCAR decided to add the stage points and playoff points that carry over all the way to Homestead, why they couldn't adjust the Chase fields for all 3 series. I feel like these moves would help the rest of the Chase and turn Homestead into less of a 4 car gimmick, but who knows, maybe the cars racing it for the title would wreck out.

Cup Series: 16 > 8 > 4 > 2
Xfinity: 8 > 4 > 2
Trucks: 8 > 4 > 2

Maybe I am just being the usual NASCAR fan that nitpicks at their moves. Interested to hear any discussion.
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I agree with FLRacingFan concerning Nascar trying to emulate March Madness and manufacture drama.
 
FLRacingFan said:
Besides everyone seeing through that they forgot that the big finales were culminations of head-to-head battles that had gone on for weeks on end. Stewart vs. Edwards. Johnson vs. Keselowski. There's not really opportunity for that to develop now.
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This. This is exactly what I miss most since 2013. The great battle between (usually) two or (sometimes) three drivers that would evolve over a 10-week shootout, building to a climax somewhere in the Texas-Phoenix-Homestead stretch run. If that had been done with a larger winners bonus, say 10 point bonus per win instead of 3, it would be a perfect championship format, in my opinion.

The elimination style format prevents that head-to-head war from ever developing. And I hate that it all comes down to one race, winner take all. It is a stern test... surviving four rounds of eliminations is very difficult. It requires excellence from the driver and the team plus a degree of luck. This year, the "playoff points" will de-emphasize luck and re-emphasize full-year excellence, so that is a big improvement IMO.

I like the current 16 > 12 > 8 > 4 better than the alternative proposal, because I think the alternative would give more weight to luck. Just my $0.02.
 
Ashstrodamus said:
That's actually a really interesting point. Maybe a 50 lap shootout between the top two teams. No holds barred on the race car except for safety equipment. Illegal motors and all, lol.
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I would say allow them to bring a backup car out incase of wreck, or maybe some stupid semi-legit gimmick like that (I can't come up with any other idea). Eh, I don't mind the Championship Four deal, but there's no great points battle between two guys anymore.
 
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FLRacingFan said:
Probably so they can (try to) generate more storylines and interest having another couple of drivers in there. And it worked for branding/marketing with the whole "Championship Four" thing at Homestead, like how the NCAA Tournament concludes with the Final Four and everything is decked out with the "The Road to the Final Four" and "The Road Ends Here" and all that. The whole thing was a big ripoff of March Madness anyways with the Chase Grid (bracket) and the accompanying Grid games and competitions you could fill out, and they had their own cutesy names like the Elite Eight (Eliminator Eight), Challenger Sixteen (Sweet Sixteen) and whatnot.

Besides everyone seeing through that they forgot that the big finales were culminations of head-to-head battles that had gone on for weeks on end. Stewart vs. Edwards. Johnson vs. Keselowski. There's not really opportunity for that to develop now.
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The season long battles in the old points system that happened organically like Earnhardt vs Martin, Gordon vs Earnhardt, 1992 battle, Gordon vs Martin and Gordon vs Yates Racing in 2001 was better than anything that could happen now IMO
 
LewTheShoe said:
This. This is exactly what I miss most since 2013. The great battle between (usually) two or (sometimes) three drivers that would evolve over a 10-week shootout, building to a climax somewhere in the Texas-Phoenix-Homestead stretch run. If that had been done with a larger winners bonus, say 10 point bonus per win instead of 3, it would be a perfect championship format, in my opinion.

The elimination style format prevents that head-to-head war from ever developing. And I hate that it all comes down to one race, winner take all. It is a stern test... surviving four rounds of eliminations is very difficult. It requires excellence from the driver and the team plus a degree of luck. This year, the "playoff points" will de-emphasize luck and re-emphasize full-year excellence, so that is a big improvement IMO.

I like the current 16 > 12 > 8 > 4 better than the alternative proposal, because I think the alternative would give more weight to luck. Just my $0.02.
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I agree with this the only thing I liked about the old Chase format was the battle especially between two top drivers was magnified by 1000 over the last 10 races
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
I agree with FLRacingFan concerning Nascar trying to emulate March Madness and manufacture drama.
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All organized sports arrange their activities to encourage and showcase drama. It's been happening since well before the first World Series, before the first Olympic Games. Some such deals I like fine, and others I don't like. Opinions vary widely about such matters.

Since I was a young man, the most blatantly artificial and unfair manipulation in the sports universe has been Nascar's championship format based on the Latford points scale. It was designed to keep everyone close together by under-rewarding winners and propping up the rest. It is the most atrocious gimmick in the history of Nascar, IMO. I am thankful that the sport has finally this year taken a step toward rewarding winners more fairly, despite the needless complexity of the reward mechanism. JMO.

Some people like the Latford championship format just fine. I believe such acceptance stems, at least in part, from two sources: blindly accepting that which has been there for a long time; and not being familiar with the details of how other forms of racing crown their champions. Again, JMO.
 
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AuzGrams said:
why they couldn't adjust the Chase fields for all 3 series.
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Playoff works better than the Chase, simple as that. Every series now goes down to the last race of the season while in previous years that wasn't so and lower series champions were determined weeks before Homestead usually.
 
LewTheShoe said:
All organized sports arrange their activities to encourage and showcase drama. It's been happening since well before the first World Series, before the first Olympic Games. Some such deals I like fine, and others I don't like. Opinions vary widely about such matters.

Since I was a young man, the most blatantly artificial and unfair manipulation in the sports universe has been Nascar's championship format based on the Latford points scale. It was designed to keep everyone close together by under-rewarding winners and propping up the rest. It is the most atrocious gimmick in the history of Nascar, IMO. I am thankful that the sport has finally this year taken a step toward rewarding winners more fairly, despite the needless complexity of the reward mechanism. JMO.

Some people like the Latford championship format just fine. I believe such acceptance stems, at least in part, from two sources: blindly accepting that which has been there for a long time; and not being familiar with the details of how other forms of racing crown their champions. Again, JMO.
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I think it could've been better too but it wasn't as bad as point-per-position. Which is still kind of an issue despite there being more opportunities to earn points in total.
 
Just to be clear, you're talking about free rides for the fans, not the drivers, right? 'Cause I can see Larson and Elliott and those other kids getting all excited about that; maybe going to the garage with 'mechanical problems' so they can beat the post-race rush.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Just to be clear, you're talking about free rides for the fans, not the drivers, right? 'Cause I can see Larson and Elliott and those other kids getting all excited about that; maybe going to the garage with 'mechanical problems' so they can beat the post-race rush.
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Some of those Monster Girls may need some ballast if they are to remain successfully seated during a Ferris Wheel ride.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Just to be clear, you're talking about free rides for the fans, not the drivers, right? 'Cause I can see Larson and Elliott and those other kids getting all excited about that; maybe going to the garage with 'mechanical problems' so they can beat the post-race rush.
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2 Ferris wheels might be needed
 
I thought the NHRA would have been the model to follow. Pair the cars off 1 Vs.16 etc. They go head to head for three races, whoever gets the most points in those three races, continues to the next round, to be paired up again. If they want rivalries, that would be a good way to get them. I have learned, if it makes sense, NASCAR will choose not to do it.
 
I don't hate the idea of each segment winner or top 2 after segment 2 advances for the championship at Homestead.
 
LewTheShoe said:
...

Since I was a young man, the most blatantly artificial and unfair manipulation in the sports universe has been Nascar's championship format based on the Latford points scale. It was designed to keep everyone close together by under-rewarding winners and propping up the rest. It is the most atrocious gimmick in the history of Nascar, IMO. I am thankful that the sport has finally this year taken a step toward rewarding winners more fairly, despite the needless complexity of the reward mechanism. JMO.

Some people like the Latford championship format just fine. I believe such acceptance stems, at least in part, from two sources: blindly accepting that which has been there for a long time; and not being familiar with the details of how other forms of racing crown their champions. Again, JMO.
Click to expand...

If I had my way only top ten finishers would be rewarded, with a bonus for winning. (No points just for finishing and running around in the back.)

The points would go from 1st to 10th: 15-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1

Add them all up at the end of the season and crown your champion. It's really not that hard. And how most motorsports outside the US (similar formats) have been doing it for decades
 
TwoZero said:
If I had my way only top ten finishers would be rewarded, with a bonus for winning. (No points just for finishing and running around in the back.)

The points would go from 1st to 10th: 15-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1

Add them all up at the end of the season and crown your champion. It's really not that hard. And how most motorsports outside the US (similar formats) have been doing it for decades
Click to expand...
Few other motorsports have a 40-car field.

I'd accept awarding points for the top 25 or 30 finishers. One advantage to not awarding points to all entrants is it would reduce the number of damaged cars returning to the field without the need for a 5-minute repair clock.
 
TwoZero said:
If I had my way only top ten finishers would be rewarded, with a bonus for winning. (No points just for finishing and running around in the back.)

The points would go from 1st to 10th: 15-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1

Add them all up at the end of the season and crown your champion. It's really not that hard. And how most motorsports outside the US (similar formats) have been doing it for decades
Click to expand...

I really like F1's points system, 25-18-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Few other motorsports have a 40-car field.

I'd accept awarding points for the top 25 or 30 finishers. One advantage to not awarding points to all entrants is it would reduce the number of damaged cars returning to the field without the need for a 5-minute repair clock.
Click to expand...

I'd argue that the 40 car field size is irrelevant.

I've seen multiple races per season where drivers come from the back of the field to place top ten and even win. Not a rare thing in oval racing, and that needs to be taken into account.

So my points system is about finishing at the front. And who finishes in the top ten most consistently during the season. With wins being worth a bit more points. (That, and commentators discussing the "Top Ten" after every race has a nice ring to it).

No need to worry though, Nascar will never adopt such a system.
.
 
Mispeedway15 said:
I really like F1's points system, 25-18-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1
Click to expand...

An interesting example of points inflation even in F1.

Percentage wise with 15-11-9-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 you would get the exact same championship results over a season.

Why start at 25 points and not 15??? All I have been able to deduce is that FIA likes the look on the championship table of guys getting lots of points!
 
TwoZero said:
If I had my way only top ten finishers would be rewarded, with a bonus for winning. (No points just for finishing and running around in the back.)

The points would go from 1st to 10th: 15-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1

Add them all up at the end of the season and crown your champion. It's really not that hard. And how most motorsports outside the US (similar formats) have been doing it for decades
Click to expand...
Regardless of details (such as points to the top 10 or top 15 or even the top 20), there is no question that it is very difficult to actually win races at the Cup level. There are so many things that can go wrong, so many obstacles that must be be overcome. In the interest of fairness, the reward for accomplishing a win needs to be substantially greater than finishing 10th or 15th. And yet Nascar has never recognized that... not under Big Bill France, nor Bill Jr., nor Brian France. There has been a small step taken this year... very small, but at least it's something.

We have people on here who rant on a weekly basis that Nascar hands out freebies like the Lucky Dog, and what a crime that is. Such righteous indignation, ha ha ha. The much greater injustice is propping up the mid-field runners by awarding nearly as many points as the winners get. And yet those who moan about the Lucky Dog conveniently ignore that Nascar has *always* had their rewards system wrong. A points scale that is nearly linear from last place to first place can *never* be fair to the sport's best drivers/best teams. It is overlooked because it has always been that way, but that is no excuse... it has always been a gimmick that is wrong and unfair. And the result has been that the wrong guy has been crowned champion in quite a few years.
 
Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me that the winner of the race/stage 3 only gets 40 points. You'd think the winner of the race should at least be able to get equal to or more points than any domination of the rest of the race by stage points.

I've always thought the winner of the race should get 60 points with this stage format.
 
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