Is Hendrick Motorsports no longer a Super Team?

FearThe4

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it seems these days they are in the same league as RCR but do you think they can get back to the top or is this what we can expect from them going forward?
 

Formerjackman

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They are a Super team in everything except where it really matters, and that is performance. I can't imagine that they won't right the ship at some point, but the seeming lack of ANY positive progress concerns me deeply. Watching that team last night, they don't look one single bit better than they did in March. As far as I'm concerned, right now they are one small step ahead of Roush and RCR.
 

FearThe4

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They are a Super team in everything except where it really matters, and that is performance. I can't imagine that they won't right the ship at some point, but the seeming lack of ANY positive progress concerns me deeply. Watching that team last night, they don't look one single bit better than they did in March. As far as I'm concerned, right now they are one small step ahead of Roush and RCR.
I don't know man its one thing for Bowman and Byron to struggle we expected Byron to have some learning curves being a rookie but when Jimmie Johnson a 7 time champion is getting lapped every week and is winless for the season it makes you wonder whats going on there.

also makes stewart/hass smart for changing to fords and getting away from hendrick power maybe they saw this coming and thats why they switched.
 

Revman

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Where does the Camaro fit into all of this? How bad is it? @StandOnIt suggests that it isn't all that bad, and this is an organizational failure. I don't know. The Chevys as a whole are horrid, and as I have mentioned before, I am completely shocked by this. I do believe that the car is bad. What now? Larry Mac mentioned that the new splitter and OSS has something to do with this. So, we have these changes screwing two manufacturers and benefitting one, but I digress. I am curious to see if Chevy comes back next year with a new nose. Something is really, really wrong with that car, and the method by which Chevy does business isn't helping.

On another note, it is important to remember that JGR won two races in 2014, and then won the Drivers Title in 2015, should have had it in 2016 (but Carl wanted to spend some time on the box with Todd Gordon and Penske), and again with a satellite in 2017. They are still a super team because super teams fix problems. They will fix this.
 

StandOnIt

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Hendrick drivers aren't performing. They might in the future, who can say. Super organization? Yeah I would say they are, all anybody has to do is look at the number of championship titles they have won. They aren't a super team what ever that means right now. All 4 SHR cars are in the top ten, having all 4 cars in the top ten would be a super team? teams?
 

LJ7201

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Byron has about 4 years of stock car experience, Bowman is only a few years removed from BK, Chase is pretty good but is a bit behind compared to other top guys on their teams (Harvick, Bowyer, Busch, Hamlin, Keselowski, Logano). I've been a broken record about this but experience > youth in this sport, and HMS is the youngest bunch.
 

StandOnIt

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Byron has about 4 years of stock car experience, Bowman is only a few years removed from BK, Chase is pretty good but is a bit behind compared to other top guys on their teams (Harvick, Bowyer, Busch, Hamlin, Keselowski, Logano). I've been a broken record about this but experience > youth in this sport, and HMS is the youngest bunch.
I agree, you look at the youth of Hendrick and "potential" is what I see. Will the younger group realize that? who knows? Time will tell.
 

ChexOrWrex

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Where does the Camaro fit into all of this? How bad is it? @StandOnIt suggests that it isn't all that bad, and this is an organizational failure. I don't know. The Chevys as a whole are horrid, and as I have mentioned before, I am completely shocked by this. I do believe that the car is bad. What now? Larry Mac mentioned that the new splitter and OSS has something to do with this. So, we have these changes screwing two manufacturers and benefitting one, but I digress. I am curious to see if Chevy comes back next year with a new nose. Something is really, really wrong with that car, and the method by which Chevy does business isn't helping.

On another note, it is important to remember that JGR won two races in 2014, and then won the Drivers Title in 2015, should have had it in 2016 (but Carl wanted to spend some time on the box with Todd Gordon and Penske), and again with a satellite in 2017. They are still a super team because super teams fix problems. They will fix this.
Larson
 

StandOnIt

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The Hendrick Camaro's the previous three tracks had three cars in the top 12 in qualifying. Brings up a number of questions? The track at Kentucky needed the most driver skill along with a really good car compared to the other three tracks and if that is so and I think it was, the lack of driver talent was obvious? At the three previous tracks, is there that big a difference between qualifying trim and racing trim, or is it driver/team fall off becaus all of them dropped places and finished lower than where they qualified.. The biggest problem to me is that there isn't a Chevy Camaro team to compare them too except one car, 42, that Ganassi has. Without SHR running 4 Chevy's anymore for a comparison it is a puzzle.
 

Revman

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I hear you, but is he carrying that car?
The Hendrick Camaro's the previous three tracks had three cars in the top 12 in qualifying. Brings up a number of questions? The track at Kentucky needed the most driver skill along with a really good car compared to the other three tracks and if that is so and I think it was, the lack of driver talent was obvious? At the three previous tracks, is there that big a difference between qualifying trim and racing trim, or is it driver/team fall off becaus all of them dropped places and finished lower than where they qualified.. The biggest problem to me is that there isn't a Chevy Camaro team to compare them too except one car, 42, that Ganassi has. Without SHR running 4 Chevy's anymore for a comparison it is a puzzle.
Does Jimmie Johnson lack talent?
 

Revman

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stupid question man..get a grip
Must have missed something in your post where I thought you were suggesting that the Hendrick camp lacked driver talent.....

The track at Kentucky needed the most driver skill along with a really good car compared to the other three tracks and if that is so and I think it was, the lack of driver talent was obvious?
 

Revman

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All good things come to an end. It's possible the Hendrick dynasty is over but only time will tell.
I think that what has been grossly underestimated is that Byron, Bowman, and to an extent Elliott are not anywhere near proven. There is an assumption shoved down our throats by the media that they are champions in waiting, and that they will will many races. Now, even if they are as good as we are to believe, it will take time to make them into the drivers that they will become. IMO the most hidden aspect of that development is what they are doing in the Tuesday debriefs. I think that this is where the team is struggling. Additionally, I think that Team Chevy does not share information the way Toyota and now Ford do. So, you have inconsistent data due to lack of experience floating out to the other Chevy teams in an inconsistent way that lacks intentionality. If they can get their **** together---and Hendrick is the straw that stirs the Chevy drink--and Chevy can get their teams talking, they will rebound IMO.
Is he in a slump, or has he plateaued? time will tell, 7 time is in the books
Slump IMO.
 

StandOnIt

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I think that what has been grossly underestimated is that Byron, Bowman, and to an extent Elliott are not anywhere near proven. There is an assumption shoved down our throats by the media that they are champions in waiting, and that they will will many races. Now, even if they are as good as we are to believe, it will take time to make them into the drivers that they will become. IMO the most hidden aspect of that development is what they are doing in the Tuesday debriefs. I think that this is where the team is struggling. Additionally, I think that Team Chevy does not share information the way Toyota and now Ford do. So, you have inconsistent data due to lack of experience floating out to the other Chevy teams in an inconsistent way that lacks intentionality. If they can get their sh!t together---and Hendrick is the straw that stirs the Chevy drink--and Chevy can get their teams talking, they will rebound IMO.
who would the Chevy teams share information with? Ford's the same way, these are separate organizations, not one Toyota factory 4 car team with one affiliate?
 

MRM

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All great drivers go through those slumps. Earnhardt did it, Gordon did it. Now we're seeing it with Johnson. Just part of the sport.

The problem with Hendrick is they have all these young drivers that can't give good input on what to do with the cars. Johnson is the only one doing that. It's hard to compete with the other teams that have multiple drivers giving good input as opposed to Hendrick who only has one. With drivers' salaries being slashed, I don't see Hendrick bringing in a proven, veteran driver to go along with Johnson.

Not to be overlooked is none of the other teams have an alliance with Hendrick. I think when SHR left Chevy and their association with Hendrick that hurt as much as Gordon retiring.
 

StandOnIt

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All great drivers go through those slumps. Earnhardt did it, Gordon did it. Now we're seeing it with Johnson. Just part of the sport.

The problem with Hendrick is they have all these young drivers that can't give good input on what to do with the cars. Johnson is the only one doing that. It's hard to compete with the other teams that have multiple drivers giving good input as opposed to Hendrick who only has one. With drivers' salaries being slashed, I don't see Hendrick bringing in a proven, veteran driver to go along with Johnson.

Not to be overlooked is none of the other teams have an alliance with Hendrick. I think when SHR left Chevy and their association with Hendrick that hurt as much as Gordon retiring.
yep all Ganassi does is lease the engines, they do everything else in house. SHR bought and brought much more to the table.
 

Revman

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who would the Chevy teams share information with? Ford's the same way, these are separate organizations, not one Toyota factory 4 car team with one affiliate?
I don't agree man. Ford has changed the way they have done business over the last couple of years under Pericak and now Rushbrook. Much more like MY beloved TRD. Chevy isn't even close to what those guys are doing--Hendrick and RCR need to be talking. Way old school. Your inevitable point about the performance of the SHR cars v. Penske is as valid as the JGR v. FRR.....The information is there, and what the individual teams choose to do with it is their own deal. Chevy is at the place where they are just coming to understand that everybody needs to start with the same information. They are all over the place IMO.

I get your dig on the Toyota factory team thing, but really, TRD is the engine builder in Costa Mesa, and supplies everything a team would need in terms of chassis in Salisbury. What JGR is doing v. FRR with all of those resources and tools is each teams own deal really. Very much like the rest of the garage--just smaller and very much more organized. David Wilson spoke this week to the car counts--smaller is better in terms of information sharing, etc. Ford is pretty close to what Toyota is doing now IMO.

SHR bought and brought much more to the table.
I think that Hendrick was butt hurt that SHR outperformed them (Jimmie said as much), and they are hell bent on making sure that doesn't happen again. Herein lies your communication problem IMO. Problem is that that is an old school way of doing business, and the new car is magnifying that.
 

DaBiff1618

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I really don't get what's so hard to understand here. Hendrick had 2 of the top 4 drivers all time (Jimmie is the GOAT) in their primes. One is retired the other is old and declining. They've replaced them with young talent that either is good but not on their level (Elliott, Bowman) or needed another year or two in Xfinity (Byron). Meanwhile, Ford has Harvick still at an elite level, and Toyota has Truex and Kyle Busch at an elite level. Chevy has Larson, who's just as good as anyone but has that Kasey Kahne knack for giving away races,and when he doesn't, the team screws it up like Kentucky. Hendrick and Chevy fans are just spoiled and now that their team is just one of the guys like the other 98% of the field they can't handle it lol.
 

machinistman3

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I have wondered with the decline of sponsors and attendance if Chevrolet has pulled back funding and interest.Win on Sunday sell on Monday doesn't apply these days IMO.
It may be a wait and see approach.The decline has occurred almost simultaneously with the decline in the sport overall.
 

Revman

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I have wondered with the decline of sponsors and attendance if Chevrolet has pulled back funding and interest.Win on Sunday sell on Monday doesn't apply these days IMO.
It may be a wait and see approach.The decline has occurred almost simultaneously with the decline in the sport overall.
They won 13 Manufacturers Titles in a row before Toyota beat them. The price that they would have to pay to gain back that kind of dominance is a really tough sell. They did it on the cheap, and those days are gone. Pull back? No. Keep up? No. Fall behind? Perhaps.
 

jws926

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I have wondered with the decline of sponsors and attendance if Chevrolet has pulled back funding and interest.Win on Sunday sell on Monday doesn't apply these days IMO.
It may be a wait and see approach.The decline has occurred almost simultaneously with the decline in the sport overall.
Well, thats a GM thing, Toyota and Ford seem to be very happy giving full support to their teams.
 

Formerjackman

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I keep hammering on this repeatedly, but nobody seems to want to hear it. These four cars seem to qualify, race and finish almost on top of each other darn near every week. I don't think it's even debatable that Bowman has a lot more experience than Byron, Elliott is more talented than Bowman, and Johnson is way better than all three teammates. That tells me that most likely, at least three if not all four are getting close to the most these cars have to offer each week, and that isn't very much. My tractor goes 11 MPH flat out, and it wouldn't matter if Kyle Busch or Cory Lajoie was driving it, it ain't going any faster. If this were strictly a talent or feedback issue, I think we'd see a MUCH bigger spread in relative performance between the cars, but we don't. I think they're just maxed out with what they have to work with. Also, if you have been paying the kind of attention I pay to this team, this problem didn't start with the Camaro, and it didn't start with Byron and Bowman showing up. This gradual decline has been going on for quite some time, and Johnson's 7th championship might have temporarily masked the issue, but was there before then. I have been distressed about the overall performance of the HMS teams since Harvick came to SHR and whipped them with their own equipment.
 

BobbyFord

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I keep hammering on this repeatedly, but nobody seems to want to hear it. These four cars seem to qualify, race and finish almost on top of each other darn near every week. I don't think it's even debatable that Bowman has a lot more experience than Byron, Elliott is more talented than Bowman, and Johnson is way better than all three teammates. That tells me that most likely, at least three if not all four are getting close to the most these cars have to offer each week, and that isn't very much. My tractor goes 11 MPH flat out, and it wouldn't matter if Kyle Busch or Cory Lajoie was driving it, it ain't going any faster. If this were strictly a talent or feedback issue, I think we'd see a MUCH bigger spread in relative performance between the cars, but we don't. I think they're just maxed out with what they have to work with. Also, if you have been paying the kind of attention I pay to this team, this problem didn't start with the Camaro, and it didn't start with Byron and Bowman showing up. This gradual decline has been going on for quite some time, and Johnson's 7th championship might have temporarily masked the issue, but was there before then. I have been distressed about the overall performance of the HMS teams since Harvick came to SHR and whipped them with their own equipment.
You could’ve stopped after the first sentence. :)
 

Charlie Spencer

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...These four cars seem to qualify, race and finish almost on top of each other darn near every week. I don't think it's even debatable that Bowman has a lot more experience than Byron, Elliott is more talented than Bowman, and Johnson is way better than all three teammates. That tells me that most likely, at least three if not all four are getting close to the most these cars have to offer each week, and that isn't very much. ... I think they're just maxed out with what they have to work with. Also, if you have been paying the kind of attention I pay to this team, this problem didn't start with the Camaro, and it didn't start with Byron and Bowman showing up. This gradual decline has been going on for quite some time, ...
When you put it that way, it sounds a lot like Roush. It doesn't matter if Kenseth's in the car or his less experienced teammates, the performance is mediocre across the board.
 

StandOnIt

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When you put it that way, it sounds a lot like Roush. It doesn't matter if Kenseth's in the car or his less experienced teammates, the performance is mediocre across the board.
Very hard to figure out if Johnson is worse or the car is without a bench mark to compare it too. Same for the other three drivers on the team.
 

Revman

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I keep hammering on this repeatedly, but nobody seems to want to hear it. These four cars seem to qualify, race and finish almost on top of each other darn near every week. I don't think it's even debatable that Bowman has a lot more experience than Byron, Elliott is more talented than Bowman, and Johnson is way better than all three teammates. That tells me that most likely, at least three if not all four are getting close to the most these cars have to offer each week, and that isn't very much. My tractor goes 11 MPH flat out, and it wouldn't matter if Kyle Busch or Cory Lajoie was driving it, it ain't going any faster. If this were strictly a talent or feedback issue, I think we'd see a MUCH bigger spread in relative performance between the cars, but we don't. I think they're just maxed out with what they have to work with. Also, if you have been paying the kind of attention I pay to this team, this problem didn't start with the Camaro, and it didn't start with Byron and Bowman showing up. This gradual decline has been going on for quite some time, and Johnson's 7th championship might have temporarily masked the issue, but was there before then. I have been distressed about the overall performance of the HMS teams since Harvick came to SHR and whipped them with their own equipment.
You make great points, but it is really hard for me to believe that Chevy has missed it this badly. ....the other issue is the Larson factor. Where is his speed coming from. He is driving your tractor 75 mph? Am I right?
 

jws926

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If the car is maxed out, where the hell is his speed coming from?
So really, the car can't be that bad right?, so that is the tell tale, HMS is just that far off , it makes some sense.
 

Revman

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So really, the car can't be that bad right?, so that is the tell tale, HMS is just that far off , it makes some sense.
I really don't know, but as a manufacturer, this new car has exposed something less than positive--be it the drivers, teams, or the engineers--hopefully for them, NOT all of the above.
 

LJ7201

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We saw what happened when Danica was replaced by Armilrola right? SHR got faster as a whole, and Harvick said the notes and info from the whole team was better this year, which led to their improved performance. These days it takes 4 knowledgeable and experienced drivers giving good feedback, which HMS and HMS fans such as myself took for granted.

Byron's feedback and info affects Johnson's car and vice versa, and if it doesn't then they're behind in communication.
 

9 fan for life

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It’s the Camaro. Chevrolet’s ran a lot better last year.Yes they qualify good but under race conditions they suck.
There maybe 1 or 2 in the top ten after every race. They have a aero issue in my opinion. It really shows on the flatter tracks.
 

mack

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Combine new cars with two new drivers, one aging driver and one driver that has "success" wrote all over him, and you'll have a very interesting mix. The Chevy teams are down, no doubt. With the exception on Larson, they're all struggling. Will the younger drivers get better with time? I think so. Rick Hendrick don't miss too often on the talent he recruits. Has Jimmy got much left in the tank? Some, maybe a couple more years. Is Chase the biggest stake in the organization? Probably so. So, I'm guessing they're in a transition/rebuilding stage with a car that needs the bugs worked out.
On the other hand, there was a time when Holman-Moody were the guys to beat, same with Junior Johnson and Associates, Petty Enterprises, RCR, Robert Yates Racing and Rousch. Things change and time passes. New guys come along that want to win, and win big. The new guys want to knock off the old guys. So, does that mean Hendrick is over? I think not. Look at Alabama football, Bear Bryant built a dynasty, it faded, its made a resounding recovery under Nick Saban. The right people in the right places will lead Hendrick back. I'd nearly bet on it. But, I don't bet.
 
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