Is NASCAR at fault?

buckaroo

buckaroo

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Interesting article on www.scenedaily.com about how NASCAR's policies have driven away the fans. Now this article doesn't start this year or last, or for that matter, even the modern era. It goes way back to 1964 when NASCAR decided to ban the Chrysler hemi. So, all of us who have been blaming Brian France for the downfall of the sport, Steve Waid believes it goes back much further than Brian.

So keeping in mind those arguments, what we are seeing today isn't anything that is new or unusual. It's just more of the same. But since those times, the sport has continued to grow, mainly in the modern era, but will this "recession" of the sport make a huge comeback as it did in the 80's and 90's?

Earlier in the day, while listening to ESPNradio, there was a discussion about how the MLB is contemplating changing the times of the start of the games of the World Series, moving it back to 7:00 p.m. eastern. The commisioner is concerned that the later start times thwart efforts to grow the fan base for those children who can't stay up for the end of the games. I think that most of us race fans will understand this, but the dilema of it all is in the monies the sport gets from the TV package. All of the networks know that they get more money for their advertising in prime time, but if they lose that money, they can't offer MLB as much. Hmmmm, same for NASCAR, and that my friends, is the ultimate these days in sports. Just like the rest of us, everyone in the sport wants to make as much as they can, which is the root of capitalism. We may blame the networks for the late starts, but in reality, it's the MLB, NASCAR and the various teams that are to fault. The only real way to fight anything that a fan doesn't like is to boycott the sport. Maybe a few more empty seats in the stands will do the trick, but only time will tell. It didin't work before, so will it work now?
 
buckaroo said:
Interesting article on www.scenedaily.com about how NASCAR's policies have driven away the fans. Now this article doesn't start this year or last, or for that matter, even the modern era. It goes way back to 1964 when NASCAR decided to ban the Chrysler hemi. So, all of us who have been blaming Brian France for the downfall of the sport, Steve Waid believes it goes back much further than Brian.

So keeping in mind those arguments, what we are seeing today isn't anything that is new or unusual. It's just more of the same. But since those times, the sport has continued to grow, mainly in the modern era, but will this "recession" of the sport make a huge comeback as it did in the 80's and 90's?

Earlier in the day, while listening to ESPNradio, there was a discussion about how the MLB is contemplating changing the times of the start of the games of the World Series, moving it back to 7:00 p.m. eastern. The commisioner is concerned that the later start times thwart efforts to grow the fan base for those children who can't stay up for the end of the games. I think that most of us race fans will understand this, but the dilema of it all is in the monies the sport gets from the TV package. All of the networks know that they get more money for their advertising in prime time, but if they lose that money, they can't offer MLB as much. Hmmmm, same for NASCAR, and that my friends, is the ultimate these days in sports. Just like the rest of us, everyone in the sport wants to make as much as they can, which is the root of capitalism. We may blame the networks for the late starts, but in reality, it's the MLB, NASCAR and the various teams that are to fault. The only real way to fight anything that a fan doesn't like is to boycott the sport. Maybe a few more empty seats in the stands will do the trick, but only time will tell. It didin't work before, so will it work now?
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So, are they willing to settle for a lesser fan base in the long run. If so let them continue on their current path. the networks may get more money in prime time but if the fan base decreases they all lose.

I watch less racing now than I used to watch. The races are more boring with the tracks they run plus the COT makes for less interesting racing. Late start times also frequently take away my viewing of some races. I know, Nascar cares little if I watch less....however, I also care little what Nascar thinks.
 
muggle not says: So, are they willing to settle for a lesser fan base in the long run. If so let them continue on their current path. the networks may get more money in prime time but if the fan base decreases they all lose.
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agreed

I'm a late night owl. I DVR ALOT of races and watch them around 10pm.
 
Local short tracks can thank NASCAR for getting more fans to come to their tracks. :beerbang:
 
There have been many complaints about Nascar and their Gestapo like tacics of late. The T.V. coverage on Fox is less than acceptable. I mean, do we really need a rodent? The cars themselves are little more than boxes designed to be as similar as possible, ala IROC. It is hard to believe that there is a major difference in engines when the same restrictor plate fits all models. Now I am an old timer. I go back to the 60's, when Nascar actually ran "Stock" cars. It was easy to tell the difference between a Dodge Challenger with it's nose cone and rear wing from a Ford, Mercury, Chevy, or any other make of car. You could tell the difference between a Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, or Olds back in those days. The fans really identified with their cars. That is gone today. Take a Dodge, a Ford, a Toyota, and a Chevy, paint them an identical color, and do not put any stickers or advertising on them and see how many people can tell the difference.

The drivers come off as robots who ae programed to take the first 5 minutes of an interiew to list all of their sponsors. Not all drivers are this way, but many of them are. Many of them also have lost the desire to win. They would rather race for some points championship at the end of the year and win that by finishing 2nd or worse in every race than to actually win a race. Back in my day, we didn't even know what the points championship was, nor did we care.

Nascar has to get it's nose into every single aspect of the racing. Every year their rules and regulations get tighter and tighter. It would not surprise me to see inspectors in the shops soon. They take away any skill that a crew chief, head engine builder, or fab man may have. Miss a set up by 1/64th of an inch and watch how severly they will fine you.

Finally, the big rich teams dominate. How many races will be won by cars other than Roush, Hendricks, or Gibbs owned cars? Sure others may have a chance, but it is an outside chance at best.

All of this makes the racing a lot more boring than it was 5 years ago, much less 15 year ago. It seems as if Nascar is looking for a 36 race IROC series, which is what this will become in 5 years or sooner.
 
Some very valid points that I agree with, Big Daddy. I go even farther back than that and while they were still a LONG way from stock cars even then, at least they looked like one and even started out as one in the beginning. BTW that long nosed winged Dodge was a CHARGER Daytona, the Challenger was the basis for the first "kit car" short tracker-in-a-box from Chrysler.

69daytona06track.jpg
 
Of course NASCAR and it's rules are to blame for most, if not all of this debacle. But the other devil in all of this is technology and the cost of it. For instance, we all know how technological F1 is in their racing, and I'd say that is pure racing at it's best though I don't care for it as much as I do stockcar racing, but when you talk about pure racing, you are talking about the science that will allow the car to go as fast as it can on the track. For those of us who have been around, the name of Ayrton Senna is familiar and he was regarded at the time the best of the best amoung racing drivers. His death can be attributed to what amounts to less than 1/16 of an inch, which was caused by too little air preaure in his tires, which was the result of a false start, which required the field to do a total restart. Long story short, if you don't understand what all that was, it was that the technology for those F1 cars are so great that the cars have to be as low to the track as they can in order to win. Ground effect, etc., get the idea? If you go to your local track, especially with the lower class cars, ground effects is nothing but a foreign language. Yeah, you will see those cute little spoilers on the trunk of the cars, but most of them it's really only there for no reason. When you reach the level that a spoiler actually has an effect on the car, you're going to see that money will make the difference between winning and coming in near the rear. In today's top series, and those approaching the top, it takes more and more money just to try and keep up with the "Jones". While NASCAR tries to now and then step in and try to stop the escalation of technology, there will always be naysayers who say NASCAR is stiffling aggressiveness. That's true, but many times they really are trying to save the teams money.

I'd love to see NASCAR back to it's early days, but I don't think that will ever happen and quite frankly, even the local scene has bypassed those early days. My opinion is that it wasn't just NASCAR that struck the fatal blow of the sport, if in deed it did, but rather technology and the money it takes to achieve that technology.

Big Daddy, those days when you could look at a stock car and tell it's make are long gone. Hell, I remember as a kid waiting anxiously for September and October of each year so we could see what the new models would look like. As a ten year old, I was deft about recognizing a '58 Chevy, Ford, Mecury, Olks, etc. Actually, I was a bit turned off to see those big fins going away. But as a 60 year old, I look at the cars on the road today and if I can't see the make on the back, I have a hard time recognizing what it is. It ain't just NASCAR.
 
buckaroo said:
Big Daddy, those days when you could look at a stock car and tell it's make are long gone. Hell, I remember as a kid waiting anxiously for September and October of each year so we could see what the new models would look like. As a ten year old, I was deft about recognizing a '58 Chevy, Ford, Mecury, Olks, etc. Actually, I was a bit turned off to see those big fins going away. But as a 60 year old, I look at the cars on the road today and if I can't see the make on the back, I have a hard time recognizing what it is. It ain't just NASCAR.
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Ain't that the truth. I can also remember anxiously waiting for the new model to come out back in those years. And don't forget the Pontiac. I can remember driving around in a 1955. My first car was a 1951 Ford, a used one.
 
muggle not said:
Ain't that the truth. I can also remember anxiously waiting for the new model to come out back in those years. And don't forget the Pontiac. I can remember driving around in a 1955. My first car was a 1951 Ford, a used one.
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My first car was either a 49 or 50 Studebaker. What a great little car, though at the time it was an embarasement for me. Wish I had that car now. After that it was a '56 Ford, then a '55 Chevy and then the USAF. One of my retiring collegues today drove his 70 something Z28 Camaro to work and I told one of the younger studs that was an honest car. He said to me, what is the use of a car like that when you can't use all that power. I guess you had to live the life. My folks had a '59 Chevy with a 348 under the hood and I used to tell my friends that it was a "409" cause it looked like one. Take me back to those days of 29 cent gasoline and those real hot rods. :)
 
I totally agree with you guys, and that is why Nascar is going in the wrong direction. Instead of trying to get some individuality out of these cars and drivers, Nascar is attempting to make them clones of each other. It is simply not interesting anymore. Nascar attendance is way down, and their T.V. ratings are down over 15% for the year. Now that is substantial. Not only do they have T.V. coverage of the race that includes rodents and announcers whose intelligence is certainly questionable, but they have idiots like Jimmy Spencer on the pre-race programs telling us how Nascar does not need the entire Northeastern United States, when referring to the banquets move out of New York City. That's what Nascar needs. Alienate an entire section of the country.

Nascar is going in the wrong direction and their former fans are letting them know it. So far, they have been way too blind to change anything and get their fans back. It is a catch 22 for them, yet they cannot see it. T.V. ratings are down. Sponsorship is getting harder and harder to come by, partially because T.V. ratings are down. Attendance is down. In Fontana, they GAVE tickets away for the race. If you bought $50.00 worth of groceries or more, you got a free ticket. Then when you got to the track, they bunched everyone up in the middle and told the T.V. cameras to avoid all the empty seats at all costs, so it looked like they had a big crowd. You can try to fool the T.V. audience, but you can not fool the sponsors. If T.V. ratings go up, maybe sponsorship would also. It is a lose-lose situation for Nascar, and so far, all they are doing is making it worse.
 
buckaroo said:
My first car was either a 49 or 50 Studebaker. What a great little car, though at the time it was an embarasement for me. Wish I had that car now. After that it was a '56 Ford, then a '55 Chevy and then the USAF. One of my retiring collegues today drove his 70 something Z28 Camaro to work and I told one of the younger studs that was an honest car. He said to me, what is the use of a car like that when you can't use all that power. I guess you had to live the life. My folks had a '59 Chevy with a 348 under the hood and I used to tell my friends that it was a "409" cause it looked like one. Take me back to those days of 29 cent gasoline and those real hot rods. :)
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Off-Topic..........In my young days we could get 5 gallons of gas for a $1 and a six-pack of beer for a $1 and ride around all evening in a 1948 Dodge and flirt with the girls. :)
 
brian and company ran me off a long time ago, i haven't been to a race since 2004, oh i will keep getting my BMS tix as long as my buddy wants to buy them, once he doesn't want them any more i just won't renew them
 
I haven't been to a race since 2003. From 1990 to 2003 I went to approx 35 races. Look at all the money I'm saving.
 
The only race I will go to now is the one at Sears Point, and then only if I have the time. I was going to go to Phoenix, but hae lost interest in that race.
 
I watch every race on TV these days, but we don't attend any Cup races...unless we get free tickets and those tickets include a suite. Working on that again this year for the next Charlotte race, but who knows. The wife and I attend the local races and any of the touring races that are close by. We'll be at Bristol in August to watch the modifieds race and after that, watch the truck race, but then we're outta there. Too much money to see the Cup races in person these days.
 
buckaroo said:
I watch every race on TV these days, but we don't attend any Cup races...unless we get free tickets and those tickets include a suite. Working on that again this year for the next Charlotte race, but who knows. The wife and I attend the local races and any of the touring races that are close by. We'll be at Bristol in August to watch the modifieds race and after that, watch the truck race, but then we're outta there. Too much money to see the Cup races in person these days.
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I've not been to a Cup race since 1980(Daytona 500, the 600 at Charlotte and the Southern 500) and that was because of free tickets in the infield from Big Bill France. Have been to Grand National (now Cup) in the early 50's at Hillsboro/Occoneechee Speedway and the old Raleigh pave one mile track. It was expensive then as it is now for me. Use to go to Martinsville to the Sportsman/Modified races for years, and to local short tracks. Still to to local tracks.

I guess what I'm saying, if folks hate NASCAR as much as some say, why the he ll continuing following it?
 
I had been to every race at the Brickyard since NASCAR started racing there. I will not be going back this year. I went to eight cup races last year. I will hit six this year.

There is a lot of USAC racing close to me. Why watch good racing when I can see GREAT racing. That and the super modifieds keep me going.

I just love racing....
 
I used to go to 8 to 10 cup races a year. Now I am down to the 2 at Bristol and the All-Star Race.
 
didnt see the article, but I will say this........ Yea, NASCAR has made some really bad moves in the past. (See Hemi ban......Mystery engine debacle, baning Turner and Flock, restricitions to Detroit leading to manufacture walk outs....etc) BUT...... the thing about all those descisions, were NASCAR was doing what it thought was in the best interest of the FANS......most were later repealed or changed by the way...... BUT they were done in the interst of keepin a level playin field and keepin the competion close.
Now it is no secret that the competition ( on paper) is by far closer today than it has ever been...... BUT, the difference then was it was EXCITIING..... Now, it's all give and take, PC drivers, sterile interview ( or commercials in most cases....) and the sport that we grew to love is dying.
NASCAR knows what it will take to get the fans back, but they want do it. They want robot drivers hawkin sponsors..... they want state of the art facilities, they want iron control on crews and drivers actions..... they want total control over what is said about them, they want nothin but good PR, and they want LOADS of money.........
the fans want drivers with character ( remeber when drivers had nicknames that MEANT somethin??? and attitudes to match) fans want close racin (see also SHORT TRACKS) fans want ingenuity (sp?) ( crews need to be allowed to "tinker" on cars, come up with new ideas....) fans want rivalry.... ( remember Allison/Petty, Bodine/Earnhardt, Petty/Pearson, Turner/World lol) fans want to be able to relate to the drivers..... ( remember when you could see drivers that you had watched for years move up. Local drivers make good) fans want tracks that have character ( see N Wilksboro, Darlington, The Rock, etc...)
Until NASCAR wakes up and makes changes for the fans, all threee series will suffer. lets get back to fun again....... controvery, fueds, creative rule interpretations, character......... make those changes and the fans will be back...... or keep on with the corprate image, young robot drivers that havent paid dues, cookie cutter boring tracks, legislate teams into an IROC scenario, and cater to the sponsors, and corprate America, and you will find yourselves in the same boat as Baseball..........
 
buckaroo said:
I watch every race on TV these days, but we don't attend any Cup races...unless we get free tickets and those tickets include a suite. Working on that again this year for the next Charlotte race, but who knows. The wife and I attend the local races and any of the touring races that are close by. We'll be at Bristol in August to watch the modifieds race and after that, watch the truck race, but then we're outta there. Too much money to see the Cup races in person these days.
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I agree ...went to at least one Cup race a year from 1999-2005, but that is the last time i have gone , been selling my Vegas seats since then. Went to NHIS for a modified race and Busch race, but just go to the local tracks around here , and even that is scaled back. Just too expensive to attend races, by the time I figure everything in, including food we bring, gas, tickets, even the local races are a $100 for a tour Modified event. One a year maybe 2 that is it. Bristol in August getting tickets end of the month, 4 of us heading down , I'm driving so gas money will be provided and tickets are cheap.
 
same deal here- When Franna let her PSL expire, I missed that spring race, was in the suite's with a friend's dad's ticket, then this year on Cesar's admission (I pay gas).
 
speedwayphoto said:
didnt see the article, but I will say this........ Yea, NASCAR has made some really bad moves in the past. (See Hemi ban......Mystery engine debacle, baning Turner and Flock, restricitions to Detroit leading to manufacture walk outs....etc) BUT...... the thing about all those descisions, were NASCAR was doing what it thought was in the best interest of the FANS......most were later repealed or changed by the way...... BUT they were done in the interst of keepin a level playin field and keepin the competion close.
Now it is no secret that the competition ( on paper) is by far closer today than it has ever been...... BUT, the difference then was it was EXCITIING..... Now, it's all give and take, PC drivers, sterile interview ( or commercials in most cases....) and the sport that we grew to love is dying.
NASCAR knows what it will take to get the fans back, but they want do it. They want robot drivers hawkin sponsors..... they want state of the art facilities, they want iron control on crews and drivers actions..... they want total control over what is said about them, they want nothin but good PR, and they want LOADS of money.........
the fans want drivers with character ( remeber when drivers had nicknames that MEANT somethin??? and attitudes to match) fans want close racin (see also SHORT TRACKS) fans want ingenuity (sp?) ( crews need to be allowed to "tinker" on cars, come up with new ideas....) fans want rivalry.... ( remember Allison/Petty, Bodine/Earnhardt, Petty/Pearson, Turner/World lol) fans want to be able to relate to the drivers..... ( remember when you could see drivers that you had watched for years move up. Local drivers make good) fans want tracks that have character ( see N Wilksboro, Darlington, The Rock, etc...)
Until NASCAR wakes up and makes changes for the fans, all threee series will suffer. lets get back to fun again....... controvery, fueds, creative rule interpretations, character......... make those changes and the fans will be back...... or keep on with the corprate image, young robot drivers that havent paid dues, cookie cutter boring tracks, legislate teams into an IROC scenario, and cater to the sponsors, and corprate America, and you will find yourselves in the same boat as Baseball..........
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You hit the nail squarely on the head. But what we want will never happen again. It's too late and it's getting that way with the local scene as well. The problem is the cost and much of that is because of NASCAR on the local scene. Once the sport got rolling, the cost just continued to rise and rise and to get the monies needed to run a team, an owner had to give his soul to the sponsors, and NASCAR did the same.
 
I feel like there are tons of hardcore race fans out there that would love to go to the race if they could. People just dont have the money to do so right now. They're starting to stay at home, hang out with fellow hardcore race fans and save their money. As far as NASCAR, they seem to have realized they turned their backs on fans and are now making a push to regain their trust. Found a website (HardcoreRaceFans.com) that's totally dedicated to fans, putting their picutres on the site and even doing articles about them...that shows there are people out there that truly put the fans first and make fans the stars of the show....because that's the truth.
 
KulwickiFan said:
I feel like there are tons of hardcore race fans out there that would love to go to the race if they could. People just dont have the money to do so right now. They're starting to stay at home, hang out with fellow hardcore race fans and save their money. As far as NASCAR, they seem to have realized they turned their backs on fans and are now making a push to regain their trust. Found a website (HardcoreRaceFans.com) that's totally dedicated to fans, putting their picutres on the site and even doing articles about them...that shows there are people out there that truly put the fans first and make fans the stars of the show....because that's the truth.
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First off, welcome to the board. But I've gotta say this about that, I don't go to the races to see other fans. While I might enjoy their company, it's what is on the track that will bring me there, or to a gathering of fans to watch it on TV. I understand what you are trying to say though. NASCAR has to pay attention to the fans or the series will go down hill quickly. But I've been hearing those words now for going on 10 years or more and though viewership is starting to wane, I do believe the economy is the biggest problem there. NASCAR might have just outgrown itself.
 
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