N
de7xwcc
Anarchist
unbelievable
T
TeamHendrick
Guest
de7xwcc said:
Unbelievable that they heard the facts and made a decision based on those facts?
I wonder what happend with the RCR appeal??
B
bumpzter
Guest
Unbelievable? Really? Why?
Fantastic! I don't find it unbelievable, but I do find it unusual. To my knowledge this is only the 2nd (&3rd) time that a suspension has been amended. The first one was for a Busch series crew chief, but his probation was for the rest of the competition year. Knaus and Gustafson's probation is for 90 days starting from the hearing date of March 22.
BTW, the RCR appeal hasn't been before the commission yet. That won't happen until I believe the 28th, next week. I will be quite surprised to see that one amended, due to Berrier's blabber mouth spouting a complete disregard for the rule that Nascar set forth.
BTW, the RCR appeal hasn't been before the commission yet. That won't happen until I believe the 28th, next week. I will be quite surprised to see that one amended, due to Berrier's blabber mouth spouting a complete disregard for the rule that Nascar set forth.
E
emon66
Guest
i think its stupid, they cant even enforce their own ruling, they better take away from the rcr fines and suspensions too, since that didnt even help them in the race.
B
boB
Guest
emon66,
How do you find these appeals stupid?
Both of the Hendrick's cars had passed pre-race inspection without any problems; both cars had raced the full distance and been adusted on during the course of the event.
Obviously, you have no knowledge of how the cars are constructed, what happens when adjustments are made, or how those adjustments affect the car.
After seeing the Appeals Commision findings, it would seem that those gentlemen reviewed the facts of the situation and found reason to change the original penalties imposed by NASCAR officials after the race.
This does not happen very often, usually any penalties are upheld by the Commission hearing.
As far as Todd Berrier, he should never be allowed to even go near a race track for the rest of his life, not even a local bullring, stooging for a street stock crew. His mouth and his attitude are not needed in the sport at all and he has no business being involved.
The best thing RCR can do at this point is give the little jerk his walking papers and send him back under whatever stone they turned over to find him.
He not only disgraced himself and his entire team, but every other team in NASCAR and the NASCAR officials.
Compare him to the criminal who boosts that, "Sure you caught me this time, but I'm gonna do it again 'cause now I know how come you caught me."
I know dumb animals that are smarter than that!
He most definately does not belong in the business of automobile racing!
How do you find these appeals stupid?
Both of the Hendrick's cars had passed pre-race inspection without any problems; both cars had raced the full distance and been adusted on during the course of the event.
Obviously, you have no knowledge of how the cars are constructed, what happens when adjustments are made, or how those adjustments affect the car.
After seeing the Appeals Commision findings, it would seem that those gentlemen reviewed the facts of the situation and found reason to change the original penalties imposed by NASCAR officials after the race.
This does not happen very often, usually any penalties are upheld by the Commission hearing.
As far as Todd Berrier, he should never be allowed to even go near a race track for the rest of his life, not even a local bullring, stooging for a street stock crew. His mouth and his attitude are not needed in the sport at all and he has no business being involved.
The best thing RCR can do at this point is give the little jerk his walking papers and send him back under whatever stone they turned over to find him.
He not only disgraced himself and his entire team, but every other team in NASCAR and the NASCAR officials.
Compare him to the criminal who boosts that, "Sure you caught me this time, but I'm gonna do it again 'cause now I know how come you caught me."
I know dumb animals that are smarter than that!
He most definately does not belong in the business of automobile racing!
T
TeamHendrick
Guest
emon66 said:
Well, the fines weren't reduced or taken away from the 48 and 5, only the suspensions.
I think the blatant disregard shown by Berrier (and, as pointed out in other posts, his boasting about it) for the rules does not bode well for the revocation of any of the sanctions. In this case he is clearly guilty, admitted his guilt, then boasted about how he'd do it again. I can, however, see them shortening his suspension to 2 races, maybe putting him on probation for the rest of the year.
S
Steve007
Guest
"Compare him to the criminal who boosts that, "Sure you caught me this time, but I'm gonna do it again 'cause now I know how come you caught me.""
Will you say the same thing when your favorite drivers crew chief gets caught in the same fashion?
Another thing. Had Earnhardt's appeal been successful last year, I wonder how that would have went over here.
Will you say the same thing when your favorite drivers crew chief gets caught in the same fashion?
Another thing. Had Earnhardt's appeal been successful last year, I wonder how that would have went over here.
B
bumpzter
Guest
Why do people try and compare apples with oranges? This has nothing to do with who your favorite driver is or isn't.
S
Steve007
Guest
On this forum it does.
Bucky Badger
Go Kyle Go
boB said:
Bob, You tell him!!! Tell him how stupid thoes teams are that they don't know the limits!!!! What a crock Bob. NASCAR just paved the way for more teams to go over the line with adjustments "DURING" the race.
D
DirtyMo1381529
Guest
I'm really surprised. i thought maybe they would cut the suspensions from 2 weeks to 1. Is this the first time where they have actually changed something after the appeal?
de7xwcc
Anarchist
i can't say why........
i really don't want to get banned
i really don't want to get banned
B
boB
Guest
Folks,
We have no way of knowing exactly what happened to the two Hendrick cars, other than the fact that they passed pre-race and failed post-race inspections.
It is pretty obvious that a lot of those who are complaining about the penalties have absolutely no idea at all as to how those adjustments may or may not affect the car.
It is my understanding that the NASCAR officials kept one of the front springs from the 5 car. That spring had supposedly collapsed. If that was the case, the adjustment needed to the right rear jacking bolt would almost certainly raise that quarter panel above the allowable height. That is if the driver was going to be able to keep the car out of the wall.
The 48 car had a jack bolt back out which allowed it to be below the minimum height at the end of the race. This is going to drop the rear of the car which would lower the spoiler; might help getting down the straights, but that's going to make the rear end more than a bit loose in the turns.
Two good crewchiefs made adjustments so these drivers not only were able to continue, they finished up front, which is what racing is supposed to be all about.
Obviously, the three Commissioners who heard these appeals felt there must have been some truth to these claims by the Hendrick Organization because even though they upheld the fines and point reduction, they replaced the suspensions with probation. While the cars were illegal at the end of the race, the Commissioners must have felt that there was not sufficent evidence of intent to circumvent the rules.
Unlike the case of a certain Mr. Berrier, who has shown his complete disrespect for his employer, his team mates and everyone else involved in the business which is providing his livelyhood.
Buckey, when you've spent the time and money, played the game, and seen the things I have in the years I've been involved with the business of auto racing, you don't really much care who's driving for who or what their names are. Whomever can get the job done with the least amount of aggrevation for the owner and officials.
Drivers are the easiest part of any race car to replace.
They're nothing more than egotistical little kids with either a bit of talent for getting a car around in circles or they're too doggone stupid to be afraid of what can happen if they make a mistake.
Don't take that the wrong way; if they weren't egotistical and too doggone stupid to be afraid, there wouldn't be anybody driving race cars, flying fighter planes or taking trips to the moon or into orbit in the space shuttle.
Just for the record, I'm not a fan of racing; it's just been one of the ways I've made a living over the years.
We have no way of knowing exactly what happened to the two Hendrick cars, other than the fact that they passed pre-race and failed post-race inspections.
It is pretty obvious that a lot of those who are complaining about the penalties have absolutely no idea at all as to how those adjustments may or may not affect the car.
It is my understanding that the NASCAR officials kept one of the front springs from the 5 car. That spring had supposedly collapsed. If that was the case, the adjustment needed to the right rear jacking bolt would almost certainly raise that quarter panel above the allowable height. That is if the driver was going to be able to keep the car out of the wall.
The 48 car had a jack bolt back out which allowed it to be below the minimum height at the end of the race. This is going to drop the rear of the car which would lower the spoiler; might help getting down the straights, but that's going to make the rear end more than a bit loose in the turns.
Two good crewchiefs made adjustments so these drivers not only were able to continue, they finished up front, which is what racing is supposed to be all about.
Obviously, the three Commissioners who heard these appeals felt there must have been some truth to these claims by the Hendrick Organization because even though they upheld the fines and point reduction, they replaced the suspensions with probation. While the cars were illegal at the end of the race, the Commissioners must have felt that there was not sufficent evidence of intent to circumvent the rules.
Unlike the case of a certain Mr. Berrier, who has shown his complete disrespect for his employer, his team mates and everyone else involved in the business which is providing his livelyhood.
Buckey, when you've spent the time and money, played the game, and seen the things I have in the years I've been involved with the business of auto racing, you don't really much care who's driving for who or what their names are. Whomever can get the job done with the least amount of aggrevation for the owner and officials.
Drivers are the easiest part of any race car to replace.
They're nothing more than egotistical little kids with either a bit of talent for getting a car around in circles or they're too doggone stupid to be afraid of what can happen if they make a mistake.
Don't take that the wrong way; if they weren't egotistical and too doggone stupid to be afraid, there wouldn't be anybody driving race cars, flying fighter planes or taking trips to the moon or into orbit in the space shuttle.
Just for the record, I'm not a fan of racing; it's just been one of the ways I've made a living over the years.
E
Eagle1
Guest
I think in the future you will see harder penalties, and they will stick because NASCAR (Mike Helton) laid out to the drivers and owners last week what their intentions are and gave them fair warning. "Be in the box and you're ok, be out of the box and pay the price.
It's like the guys on INNC said, NASCAR already gives these teams 1/4" of and inch gray area, these infractions were almost another 1/4" of an inch beyond the grey area. Before anyone goes yelling what difference does a 1/2" make, think about it. What difference does a piece of tape make?
Should these guys have been suspended? Maybe not, but that's only because NASCAR had not made it clear that that was going to be the penalty. I think everyone is forwarned now.
IMO the 1/4" tolorance is the yellow caution zone, ....be more careful in the future so as not to slip into the "RED" zone! The "RED" zone should only have 1 consideration for the officials to look at. .... Was the car involved in a wreck that could have caused this problem? Are there any wrinkles or puckers in the frame to show that the frame was bent forcing the body higher or lower. And that should be the only grounds for appealing an assesed penalty.
Green or yellow zones ........ You're good, pass go collect your $200
Red zone......... Go directly to jail...... No Points, No money!
People say it is the crew chiefs "job" to cheat and try to get by with what he can. I disagree, one of his jobs maybe to push the limits into the grey area to gain an advantage, but his main job is to make sure he hasn't over stepped the rules and passes post race inspection.
As I've said before, the sponsors may not like this, they may get real PO'd if there car loses the position it finished in and is disqualified because they are paying the bucks to see their cars finish well and be associated with winners and front runners. But do you REALLY think they are going to be mad at NASCAR? Give me a break, they will be highly PO'd at the team, who wants to be accosiated with cheaters and be labeled as one by association.
Responsibility needs to be placed right where it belongs, .... in the CC's lap.
NASCAR won't need to suspend a CC for these type infractions, if it happens more than once and the team looes money, points, and maybe your sponsor I don't believe they'll have their jobs long.
As I've said several times, This is the big leagues, the best of the best, so act like it and be held accountable to the same standards every racer in the country faces every racing week, not to a lower standard! If anything, these guys should have a higher standard showing why they are the best.
JMHO
It's like the guys on INNC said, NASCAR already gives these teams 1/4" of and inch gray area, these infractions were almost another 1/4" of an inch beyond the grey area. Before anyone goes yelling what difference does a 1/2" make, think about it. What difference does a piece of tape make?
Should these guys have been suspended? Maybe not, but that's only because NASCAR had not made it clear that that was going to be the penalty. I think everyone is forwarned now.
IMO the 1/4" tolorance is the yellow caution zone, ....be more careful in the future so as not to slip into the "RED" zone! The "RED" zone should only have 1 consideration for the officials to look at. .... Was the car involved in a wreck that could have caused this problem? Are there any wrinkles or puckers in the frame to show that the frame was bent forcing the body higher or lower. And that should be the only grounds for appealing an assesed penalty.
Green or yellow zones ........ You're good, pass go collect your $200
Red zone......... Go directly to jail...... No Points, No money!
People say it is the crew chiefs "job" to cheat and try to get by with what he can. I disagree, one of his jobs maybe to push the limits into the grey area to gain an advantage, but his main job is to make sure he hasn't over stepped the rules and passes post race inspection.
As I've said before, the sponsors may not like this, they may get real PO'd if there car loses the position it finished in and is disqualified because they are paying the bucks to see their cars finish well and be associated with winners and front runners. But do you REALLY think they are going to be mad at NASCAR? Give me a break, they will be highly PO'd at the team, who wants to be accosiated with cheaters and be labeled as one by association.
Responsibility needs to be placed right where it belongs, .... in the CC's lap.
NASCAR won't need to suspend a CC for these type infractions, if it happens more than once and the team looes money, points, and maybe your sponsor I don't believe they'll have their jobs long.
As I've said several times, This is the big leagues, the best of the best, so act like it and be held accountable to the same standards every racer in the country faces every racing week, not to a lower standard! If anything, these guys should have a higher standard showing why they are the best.
JMHO
B
bumpzter
Guest
bumpzter said:
Steve007 said:
Speak for yourself. But I believe the majority of posters here are 'real' race fans to whom fairness means something.
While I can't disagree with the majority of what you have said, but I do disagree with making it the Crew Chief's fault for a part failure.
Eagle1 said:
Bucky Badger
Go Kyle Go
majestyx said:
What was the exact part failure, and how did it fail?
G
Gollum
Guest
They wont overturn RCR's besides Berrier will have his half over with betime the appeal is heard. He has already missed one race.
The lock on the jack bolt failed. It allowed it to back out farther than it should have.Bucky Badger said:
E
Eagle1
Guest
majestyx said:
Ok, I should've said within the CC's control, cause if it is an obveous untampered with broke part that should be taken into consideration.
But you know how fans are, if it's not their favorite many will still yell "Conspiracy". But as far as I'm concerned if NASCAR say they inspected something and this is their findings I'm not going to try and second guess them.
H
Handymac
Guest
Seems to me most folks have no idea of the way teams cheated 'back in the Good Ol' Days'-----in the 50's, 60's, and even into the 70's. It was expected and a natural part of the sport. The only punishments were generally meted out behind the barn, after the race.
I don't agree with cheating, but it is a natural human tendency---every one of us has cheated at some point. So, the more money that is on the line, the more advantageous it is to push the envelope and even cheat.
What Berrier did is simply 'Old School' cheating. Point is he was a bit unintelligent in doing so---the advantage gained in qualifying would have not been an advantage during the race. I have no problem with punishing him----he has said he won't get caught again----that will be remembered----next time he might get worse.
I don't agree with cheating, but it is a natural human tendency---every one of us has cheated at some point. So, the more money that is on the line, the more advantageous it is to push the envelope and even cheat.
What Berrier did is simply 'Old School' cheating. Point is he was a bit unintelligent in doing so---the advantage gained in qualifying would have not been an advantage during the race. I have no problem with punishing him----he has said he won't get caught again----that will be remembered----next time he might get worse.
E
emon66
Guest
i dont remember which show it was on, but a man wrote them something about his sons go-karting rules are that if something happens to your kart to make it go faster and it is found after the race is over, they take your win away, then he asked why does his son's go-karting series have higher standards then nascars elite division. i completely agree with him, even if the 48 team didnt do it on purpose, they should still get the win taken away.
A
Alverez
Guest
it's part and parcel for the gig.
ya try to slip what ya can under the radar. it's an open fact.
they got it over turned because NASCAR doesn't have a back bone unless the general public makes a stink about it.
when was it that the spoiler braces were put in? Oh yeah.. after people got caught with spoilers that bent backwards... past NASCAR's legal settings... due to speed and force. and those people got punished.
did they do it on purpose? No. Did it happen in the race? Yes. Did they pass pre-race inspection? Yes. Did they fail post race inspection. Yes.
same deal. the part gave up.
it happens.
I think GM should give me a new car, cuz it's not their dealerships fault they sold me a car with a bad part from GM.
Oh wait... it happens!
If I was a the driver, I don't think I should have to get put to the back of the starting grid cuz my engine had a bad batch of rods, and I had to replace my engine. But, guess what... I'd end up back there anyway. and it wasn't my fault OR my CC's fault!
it's the same deal on a grander scale.
NASCAR's committee (in my eyes) dropped the ball here.
ya try to slip what ya can under the radar. it's an open fact.
they got it over turned because NASCAR doesn't have a back bone unless the general public makes a stink about it.
when was it that the spoiler braces were put in? Oh yeah.. after people got caught with spoilers that bent backwards... past NASCAR's legal settings... due to speed and force. and those people got punished.
did they do it on purpose? No. Did it happen in the race? Yes. Did they pass pre-race inspection? Yes. Did they fail post race inspection. Yes.
same deal. the part gave up.
it happens.
I think GM should give me a new car, cuz it's not their dealerships fault they sold me a car with a bad part from GM.
Oh wait... it happens!
If I was a the driver, I don't think I should have to get put to the back of the starting grid cuz my engine had a bad batch of rods, and I had to replace my engine. But, guess what... I'd end up back there anyway. and it wasn't my fault OR my CC's fault!
it's the same deal on a grander scale.
NASCAR's committee (in my eyes) dropped the ball here.