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Manufacturer Battle

Revman

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This thread will either get no posts and slip into oblivion, or something more than that....Let's see.....

I was very public about Chevy getting a gift this year. Without questions they have already squandered their advantage. Completely pathetic. What I didn't expect (yes, @StandOnIt I am flip flopping) was that Ford would be kicking Toyota's ass in addition to Chevy the way they are. Props to Rushbrook and Doug Yates. Did their homework, and did it well.

The other unexpected piece for me was Toyota flat lining after what I perceived to be a serge back to relevance. Recent pace has been troubling for Toyota Nation. Dunno if we will see a second serge, but WE had better hurry up, Ford is running away with the Manufacturers Title.

Love this stuff.....
 

AndyMarquisLive

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This thread will either get no posts and slip into oblivion, or something more than that....Let's see.....

I was very public about Chevy getting a gift this year. Without questions they have already squandered their advantage. Completely pathetic. What I didn't expect (yes, @StandOnIt I am flip flopping) was that Ford would be kicking Toyota's ass in addition to Chevy the way they are. Props to Rushbrook and Doug Yates. Did their homework, and did it well.

The other unexpected piece for me was Toyota flat lining after what I perceived to be a serge back to relevance. Recent pace has been troubling for Toyota Nation. Dunno if we will see a second serge, but WE had better hurry up, Ford is running away with the Manufacturers Title.

Love this stuff.....
But Harvick and Hamlin are dominating the season.
 

Spotter22

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This thread will either get no posts and slip into oblivion, or something more than that....Let's see.....

I was very public about Chevy getting a gift this year. Without questions they have already squandered their advantage. Completely pathetic. What I didn't expect (yes, @StandOnIt I am flip flopping) was that Ford would be kicking Toyota's ass in addition to Chevy the way they are. Props to Rushbrook and Doug Yates. Did their homework, and did it well.

The other unexpected piece for me was Toyota flat lining after what I perceived to be a serge back to relevance. Recent pace has been troubling for Toyota Nation. Dunno if we will see a second serge, but WE had better hurry up, Ford is running away with the Manufacturers Title.

Love this stuff.....
Your analysis and conclusions have a fatal flaw, we still have 1/2 a season to go.
 

StandOnIt

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Anybody think Elliott was kidding about delivering cases of Moutain Dew to Blaney after the All Star race? There could be some mind games involved also. Blaney is only 5 points ahead in third place to Elliott in the points. These younger guys are starting to get pretty salty with three of them in the top 10 right now. The press as usual are sitting on their hands, but two very popular drivers in the sport are neck and neck right now.
 

Formerjackman

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In my mind all three makes are fairly close, but the difference (as usual) is that a few teams are just executing a little better than others. I think if you take the 4 and the 11 out of it, you could throw a blanket over about 10-12 cars. The 18 and the 19 have been a little off, but fast at times, and the success of the 11 would seem to indicate that it's a team issue not a car issue. The same goes for the HMS cars. It seems that three out of the four like to shoot themselves in the foot every week, it's just that the 9 does it less often than the others, although still too often.
 

JJ_14

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That's very interesting. Another interesting stat is that there are 3 teams tied for most wins in Nascar with 5: SHR, Penske & Gibbs.
 

StandOnIt

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Rev missed the tsunami (get it?) of the Fords coming while worrying and over emphizing and bad mouthing the bow ties. Things can't look that great either looking out of his KDB glasses. But cheer up, the egg sucking TRD boot licking gerbils are coming to the broadcast booth. It's pretty bad when Hamlin is preacher's star with Pearnless Truex a distant second. I expect more jumping ship when the season is over. I think they had a come to jesus talk with KDB after he threw the car, his team, TRD and Toyota under the bus after Indianapolis. He was a different, philosophical Kyle after the All Star race. (blamed it on the track)
 

jaqua19

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This thread will either get no posts and slip into oblivion, or something more than that....Let's see.....

I was very public about Chevy getting a gift this year. Without questions they have already squandered their advantage. Completely pathetic. What I didn't expect (yes, @StandOnIt I am flip flopping) was that Ford would be kicking Toyota's ass in addition to Chevy the way they are. Props to Rushbrook and Doug Yates. Did their homework, and did it well.

The other unexpected piece for me was Toyota flat lining after what I perceived to be a serge back to relevance. Recent pace has been troubling for Toyota Nation. Dunno if we will see a second serge, but WE had better hurry up, Ford is running away with the Manufacturers Title.

Love this stuff.....
Hmmm.

I'll bite. Ford, Chevy, Toyota. I don't think Chevy is as off as you indicate (although there's a slight decline), and I don't think Toyota has made any progress whatsoever this season. I think that your frustration, or whatever you want to call it with Chevy getting a "gift", as well as your Toyota fandom may be fueling your opinion on those manufactures. The tone you have when speaking about Chevy clearly hints at this. Much like myself towards MTJ ;) I .

Let me take a stab at the manufacturer performance analysis, as someone who frankly doesn't give a **** about the manufacture race. I don't have a horse in this one. (Although I could be missing some things.).

Ford is killing it right now. No doubt about it.
Toyota is skewed by the 11 imo. The Toyota teams execute with what they have, but I think manufacture points don't paint the entire picture of pace, or speed, which is what this is about, right? Also, I don't think there was any surge. Toyota to me looks just as they did all season. Just a bit off, and I would rank them overall just a bit below Chevy.

Chevy has been off the last month or so, especially the 9. But they are still showing speed. The 48 had race winning speed at Kentucky. Kenseth ran top 5 at Indy. Chase lead at Indy, and Pocono, and had speed at Bristol.

I would rank the manufactures, Ford >>>Chevy>=Toyota.

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BobbyFord

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Bring practice back and see a bit of a change up front.
The top 5 from last year will be there but the rest of the top ten will be mid-pack cars again.
 

Mispeedway15

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Yeah it’s hard to really make any fair reviews of this season to be honest. The inability to tailor your car based on practice has led to individual driver teams being more important than the car they drive.

Also we have an absurd amount of talent in Cup right now, Custer & Reddick are doing terrific, Bowman & Blaney have established themselves as guys who are gonna win at least one a year, Almirola, Kurt & Bowyer are solid competitors that may get a win and then your championship level guys (2-4-9-11-18-19-22)
 

Team Penske

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I really like the no practice deal, reminds me of many many many yrs ago when we raced what we had put together at the shop. I think Kyle is as good as he ever was but his CC needs to be more thoughtful. Why is he bringing cars to the track that Kyle doesn't like. They should be close enough that a few adjustments suggested by Kyle should make the car top 5 at least.
On the other hand, Harvick's CC used to have great cars at MWR with 3 different drivers.
(That is my memory anyway) and he has tamed Harvick who is now a more thoughtful and patient driver.
As for Denny, he and his CC seem to be in sync. Denny has always been great when there is no pressure so right now he is in his element and probably having more fun that anyone else.
 

StandOnIt

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I think Texas is going to throw some of them for a loop. The track is going to be hot and slick and anybodies race.
 

StandOnIt

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I know. Allowing Chevy to get rid of the point in the front end was a minor change after a brand new model change from the SS to the Camaro. Ford a few years back used an original grill on their new car that proved to not work very well aerodynamically and safety wise when it would shatter when involved in a wreck. :idunno:
 

Turtle84

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Hmmm.

I'll bite. Ford, Chevy, Toyota. I don't think Chevy is as off as you indicate (although there's a slight decline), and I don't think Toyota has made any progress whatsoever this season. I think that your frustration, or whatever you want to call it with Chevy getting a "gift", as well as your Toyota fandom may be fueling your opinion on those manufactures. The tone you have when speaking about Chevy clearly hints at this. Much like myself towards MTJ ;) I .

Let me take a stab at the manufacturer performance analysis, as someone who frankly doesn't give a **** about the manufacture race. I don't have a horse in this one. (Although I could be missing some things.).

Ford is killing it right now. No doubt about it.
Toyota is skewed by the 11 imo. The Toyota teams execute with what they have, but I think manufacture points don't paint the entire picture of pace, or speed, which is what this is about, right? Also, I don't think there was any surge. Toyota to me looks just as they did all season. Just a bit off, and I would rank them overall just a bit below Chevy.

Chevy has been off the last month or so, especially the 9. But they are still showing speed. The 48 had race winning speed at Kentucky. Kenseth ran top 5 at Indy. Chase lead at Indy, and Pocono, and had speed at Bristol.

I would rank the manufactures, Ford >>>Chevy>=Toyota.

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I'll do the dirty work, and add the 19 to that Toyota skewing for you ;)
 

jaqua19

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I'll do the dirty work, and add the 19 to that Toyota skewing for you ;)
I'm not sure if I would though! Haha. I did think about this. He has one win, and how many stage wins? He hasn't ran as well as he has last year. Kentucky, he wasn't any better than a 6th place car until he got the track position due to the caution. The 12 was much better, with the exception of that 1 run. He was fast at Martinsville but he hasn't had that cookie cutter edge.

He's the second best running Toyota, and while he is definitely good enough to win races, I don't think he's had enough speed to really skew the data, so to speak. Top two Toyotas are outrunning the top 2 Chevies, totally. But there's a big drop off from the 11 to the 19, and an even bigger drop off from the 19 to the 18 and then the other TRD cars. I think you have a handful of Chevies in between the 19 and 18 and the 18 and 20.

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StandOnIt

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I am on the anti bodies side.... get rid of as much aero as possible.
Pretty much the way to get rid of aero is to reduce the speeds. Short tracks are where that happens and road courses somewhat. It's still there though but not a huge factor. I think the series is top heavy with the larger tracks, so do most everybody else. One of the problems with short tracks are that many very expensive cars can be damaged in a heartbeat. Another is that a large field of 40 cars with all of the equipment doesn't have enough room on pit road and in the garages. That being said, Nascar and the car owners are going to have to bite the bullet and hold more races on the smaller tracks IMO. Much like the tire dilemma most fans think they want short tracks, but when the beating and banging happens, a whole bunch will start squawking right along with the car owners and sponsors.
 

OldTimer

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Pretty much the way to get rid of aero is to reduce the speeds. Short tracks are where that happens and road courses somewhat. It's still there though but not a huge factor. I think the series is top heavy with the larger tracks, so do most everybody else. One of the problems with short tracks are that many very expensive cars can be damaged in a heartbeat. Another is that a large field of 40 cars with all of the equipment doesn't have enough room on pit road and in the garages. That being said, Nascar and the car owners are going to have to bite the bullet and hold more races on the smaller tracks IMO. Much like the tire dilemma most fans think they want short tracks, but when the beating and banging happens, a whole bunch will start squawking right along with the car owners and sponsors.
The new bodies should help with the cost.

By the way...loved the fact that Truex came back out with half a car. Even Kenseth impressed me, usually if his car has a scratch he gives up, yesterday he stuck with it. That is the most damaged car I have seen him on the track with since he punted Logano.
 

Revman

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Allowing Chevy to get rid of the point in the front end was a minor change after a brand new model change from the SS to the Camaro.
You know that Chad Knaus said that there wasn't any carry over from the previous car. Why do you post stuff like this? I know that you know this.
 

DanicaFreak

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I for one will miss all of the battle scars on the sides of the current cars. Rubbin is racin afterall
 

Revman

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Hmmm.

I'll bite. Ford, Chevy, Toyota. I don't think Chevy is as off as you indicate (although there's a slight decline), and I don't think Toyota has made any progress whatsoever this season. I think that your frustration, or whatever you want to call it with Chevy getting a "gift", as well as your Toyota fandom may be fueling your opinion on those manufactures. The tone you have when speaking about Chevy clearly hints at this. Much like myself towards MTJ ;) I .

Let me take a stab at the manufacturer performance analysis, as someone who frankly doesn't give a **** about the manufacture race. I don't have a horse in this one. (Although I could be missing some things.).

Ford is killing it right now. No doubt about it.
Toyota is skewed by the 11 imo. The Toyota teams execute with what they have, but I think manufacture points don't paint the entire picture of pace, or speed, which is what this is about, right? Also, I don't think there was any surge. Toyota to me looks just as they did all season. Just a bit off, and I would rank them overall just a bit below Chevy.

Chevy has been off the last month or so, especially the 9. But they are still showing speed. The 48 had race winning speed at Kentucky. Kenseth ran top 5 at Indy. Chase lead at Indy, and Pocono, and had speed at Bristol.

I would rank the manufactures, Ford >>>Chevy>=Toyota.

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Chevy got a brand new car originally intended for 1 year during a manufacturer parts/development freeze to save money for the Next Gen. That. Is. A. Gift.

The 11 is skewing the hell out of the numbers for MY Toyotas. They have progressed or they would be getting killed, and there were surges in Atlanta and Pocono....but it hasn't been enough.

As I mentioned, Ford has been a surprise to me. Good for them.

I would agree with your manufacturer rankings, but the points don't show that.
 

StandOnIt

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The new bodies should help with the cost.

By the way...loved the fact that Truex came back out with half a car. Even Kenseth impressed me, usually if his car has a scratch he gives up, yesterday he stuck with it. That is the most damaged car I have seen him on the track with since he punted Logano.
Texas is one of the higher paying races. If they could get some laps on the completely dead and done ones it means a few bucks more.
 

StandOnIt

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You know that Chad Knaus said that there wasn't any carry over from the previous car. Why do you post stuff like this? I know that you know this.
I don't believe I ever read or heard Knaus say that. Do you have a link or a clip? Below is what I said and what was reported that I read and saw on the track. The nose was changed on the new model the ZL-1LE. I believe instead of a "gift" that safety was one of the factors that allowed the change. Also Nascar changed the rules right when the ZL-1 came out. Nascar has allowed changes to new cars before for competition or safety concerns. But have it your way "gift"

Another factor in the change was the problems with the ZL1’s pointed nose when it came to pushing other cars at Daytona and Talladega compared to Ford and Toyota and their flatter noses.

 

Revman

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I don't believe I ever read or heard Knaus say that. Do you have a link or a clip? Below is what I said and what was reported that I read and saw on the track. The nose was changed on the new model the ZL-1LE. I believe instead of a "gift" that safety was one of the factors that allowed the change. Also Nascar changed the rules right when the ZL-1 came out. Nascar has allowed changes to new cars before for competition or safety concerns. But have it your way "gift"

Another factor in the change was the problems with the ZL1’s pointed nose when it came to pushing other cars at Daytona and Talladega compared to Ford and Toyota and their flatter noses.

Gotcha on the safety issue..... Laughable. Here is the link you seek from that little Racer Magazine rag. A little bit more than the nose.... You are a brilliant poster, but when you get all biased, it is worse than me. Hands down. Big difference being that I have never pretended to be anything but biased.

 

StandOnIt

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Glad you found the clip. News to me. Whatever it is, they aren't setting the world on fire with the "significantly different" changes.
 

Ford 222

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I love the manufacturer battle....one of the biggest reasons I watch. When I started in 1990, everyone was a Chevy/GM fan so I naturally started supporting the underdog.

I hope the delay of the next gen car means Ford will be competitive through next year too. I still say the best three teams are the 9-4-11 for now. So there is no excuse for any other team to feel handicapped by their manufacturer.
 

JGR_20

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The manufacturer battle in the 90s was AWESOME! Chevy getting the advantage in early 1995 with their new Monte Carlo, and the Ford drivers politicking and lobbying for help, got their help a little later in the season... to which the Chevy camp was upset about it...

ahhhhh, fun times!

I do think the battle is a lot more pronounced today than it has been in the last 10 years tho...

with teams driving the same manufacturer drafting together in the last several years... running in packs together at plate race practice sessions... it’s kinda cool when you step back and look at it right now.

I do think Ford visually has the edge at the second. Hopefully TRD gets dominate again soon.
 

Mispeedway15

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The manufacturer battle in the 90s was AWESOME! Chevy getting the advantage in early 1995 with their new Monte Carlo, and the Ford drivers politicking and lobbying for help, got their help a little later in the season... to which the Chevy camp was upset about it...

ahhhhh, fun times!

I do think the battle is a lot more pronounced today than it has been in the last 10 years tho...

with teams driving the same manufacturer drafting together in the last several years... running in packs together at plate race practice sessions... it’s kinda cool when you step back and look at it right now.

I do think Ford visually has the edge at the second. Hopefully TRD gets dominate again soon.
Yeah I think it’s what has helped the sport considerably. Manufacturer battles are real again
 

Ford 222

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The manufacturer battle in the 90s was AWESOME! Chevy getting the advantage in early 1995 with their new Monte Carlo, and the Ford drivers politicking and lobbying for help, got their help a little later in the season... to which the Chevy camp was upset about it...

ahhhhh, fun times!

I do think the battle is a lot more pronounced today than it has been in the last 10 years tho...

with teams driving the same manufacturer drafting together in the last several years... running in packs together at plate race practice sessions... it’s kinda cool when you step back and look at it right now.

I do think Ford visually has the edge at the second. Hopefully TRD gets dominate again soon.
The 90's was basically a Chevy whine-fest, getting their way. People whined when Ford brought out the 4 door Taurus but they forgot how much GM completely blew away the requirements that NASCAR had to race: V8 and RWD with their POS ugly ass 6 cylinder and front wheel drive Lumina. Then GM brings the Monte Carlo out. At the time the cars had to match 11 or so templates that matched the showroom car. NASCAR allowed the Monte Carlo to match like 9 as the rear of the stock MC wasn't wide enough to fit the regulated spoiler. If that wasn't the biggest act of favoritism, I don't know what it would be? Ford matched all 11 but the Monte Carlo didn't. Don't know why Ford even stayed in the sport during that BS.

Usually they handicapped the faster make by adjusting spoiler height for each. It was fun to watch but the Monte Carlo fiasco was a joke. You're welcome Dale and Jeff.

Yes, it may be coming back and should be fun if they can make changes that are not extreme.
 

HoopsMcCann

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The 90's was basically a Chevy whine-fest, getting their way. People whined when Ford brought out the 4 door Taurus but they forgot how much GM completely blew away the requirements that NASCAR had to race: V8 and RWD with their POS ugly ass 6 cylinder and front wheel drive Lumina. Then GM brings the Monte Carlo out. At the time the cars had to match 11 or so templates that matched the showroom car. NASCAR allowed the Monte Carlo to match like 9 as the rear of the stock MC wasn't wide enough to fit the regulated spoiler. If that wasn't the biggest act of favoritism, I don't know what it would be? Ford matched all 11 but the Monte Carlo didn't. Don't know why Ford even stayed in the sport during that BS.

Usually they handicapped the faster make by adjusting spoiler height for each. It was fun to watch but the Monte Carlo fiasco was a joke. You're welcome Dale and Jeff.

Yes, it may be coming back and should be fun if they can make changes that are not extreme.
Your post is a perfect example of what the manufacturers war used to be like. A quarter inch extra of rear spoiler for one manufacturer could cause all sorts of fighting among fans and crew chiefs. Many fans thought that their manufacturer was getting the short end of the stick with each change and it went on week after week and year after year. A lot of the fans would love a certain driver if he drove their make but as soon as that changed they hated the guy.

I think the manufacturers war has been over in the eyes of most fans for many years now. It really hit me that it was over when Tony Stewart had to drive a Toyota for a year and none of his fans left. If that had happened 10 years earlier a ton of his fans would have left and he would have picked up a ton of new ones all due to manufacturer loyalty. There are fans today that may have 3 favorite drivers representing all the manufacturer and that would have been a rare occurrence in the 90's. Your were either GM or Ford back then.
 

Ford 222

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Your post is a perfect example of what the manufacturers war used to be like. A quarter inch extra of rear spoiler for one manufacturer could cause all sorts of fighting among fans and crew chiefs. Many fans thought that their manufacturer was getting the short end of the stick with each change and it went on week after week and year after year. A lot of the fans would love a certain driver if he drove their make but as soon as that changed they hated the guy.

I think the manufacturers war has been over in the eyes of most fans for many years now. It really hit me that it was over when Tony Stewart had to drive a Toyota for a year and none of his fans left. If that had happened 10 years earlier a ton of his fans would have left and he would have picked up a ton of new ones all due to manufacturer loyalty. There are fans today that may have 3 favorite drivers representing all the manufacturer and that would have been a rare occurrence in the 90's. Your were either GM or Ford back then.
Loved those years. Everyone was a nascar fan so you could argue with anyone....
 
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