Muscle Cars, Sedans and NASCAR

SpeedPagan

SpeedPagan

The iRacing Guru
Joined
Sep 29, 2009
Messages
19,354
Points
1,033
So my dad and I were talking about NASCAR tonight, about the new qualifying rules, the new point system etc. when I posed an interesting question. Why are there sedans in NASCAR? Wasn't NASCAR originally about racing muscle cars? Since when did Toyota Camry, Ford Fusion or Chevy SS belong on the same level as the Charger, Challenger, or Mustang? Maybe that's one of the things that NASCAR can change about itself, be a sport that's more about racing modern day muscle cars and not about four door sedans, because I'll be honest. Four door sedans are boring.
 
I blame Ford. They replaced the T-Bird with the god awful Taurus
 
GM's offerings were FWD V6 family cars (lame) but at least they were sporty coupes...

1991-Chevrolet-Lumina-Z34.jpg


Petty-1.jpg


not some goofy looking sedan shaped like a jelly bean...

P7200004.JPG
 
In sprint cup or the old grand national the cars have almost always been big. In a lot of cases not the biggest but still big. A Monte Carlo wasnt as big as a Caprice or Cadillac, T-Bird wasnt as big as a Crown Vic or Lincoln.

The Camaros, Novas, and Mustangs were at the local tracks. Nascar had a Grand American series too ( if interested google Tiny Lund images).

There was more flexibility, Darrell Waltrip ran a Caprice a few times while others ran a Monte Carlo.
It was common to see a car a couple of years old still running the then Gran National series. When they ran at GPS a small half miler even Pettys car looked a year or two old. Smaller purses, more beating and banging, they probably didnt want to mess up the newest sheet metal.

They were just two doors rather than four. Maybe I am just getting old but back then a four door was considered to be an old mans or granny type of car. I know my dad wouldnt consider a four door, even with 3 children.
 
The biggest problem is that muscle cars no longer exist. What do you have in the tier below the sports/exotics? Modern day "pony" cars in the Camaro/Mustang/Challenger, and midsize/large performance sedans in the Chevrolet SS, Charger RT, and Taurus SHO (also Audis, Merc-Benz, BMW, etc). That's about it.

There's too many economy, crossover, small platform sedans these days because that's what sells. People care about practicality and fuel mileage. Toyota hasn't had a true performance car since the Supra so what else do they have to offer besides the lame Camry? For some reason Ford chooses to race the Fusion over the Taurus SHO (that's a head scratcher). At least Chevy has a true RWD V8 car now.

I wish we still had mid/large RWD V8 coupes like the G-body Monte Carlo, 2-door Charger, Thunderbird, etc...but sadly those days are long gone.
 
I wish we still had mid/large RWD V8 coupes like the G-body Monte Carlo, 2-door Charger, Thunderbird, etc...but sadly those days are long gone.
Click to expand...
I've got a 2011 V8 Hyundai 4 door sedan, 385 hp - same as a Mopar 440 in a 280 CID engine (28 mpg on the highway, 21 mpg around town). It can get up and go and handle. V8 power is pretty much in a luxury performance sedan class, not exactly affordable unless you buy used (like I did). However, I'd still like a classic muscle car. I've been watching the car auctions and muscle cars are more expensive than luxury cars now.
 
This is an area where I don't think the promotion of NASCAR has moved one bit. Clearly, "stock cars" no longer have anything to do with stock. This pisses the long time fans off. So, the transition that NASCAR has never made is the connectedness to the fan base similar to open wheel stuff. That connection is the understanding that the product on the track cannot possibly be anything other than a manufacturer's expression of the brand in a competitive context. Fans need to quit looking for the the "I bought a Camry, so I wanna go see it race thing." Certainly, the Gen 6's look closer to the part, and in that there is some connectedness, but at the end of the day, a Camry, for example, is Toyota's (TRD's) expression of what the brand can produce in a competitive environment relative to Ford and Chevy. So, blah, blah, blah.....what I mean to say is that given the lack of intention of creating a purely stock race car, a manufacturer could produce any body with the understanding that the connectedness to the fan base is one of "Look what we can do when we go off." Honestly, I have no problem at all in deriving my pride from this perspective. As a Toyota fan, I don't have a muscle car to long for, and to wish it to be as it was. It is easier for me to accept....and in understanding this, I just giggled when people bitched about Toyota's entry into NASCAR without the existence of a pushrod V-8 in the line up.
 
Underneath those flimsy bodies we still have a gnarly v-8 a four speed trans and a nine inch ford rear end, whats not to like in that package ??? They sound good and they look great. Nascar has done a GREAT job IMO
 
Why are there sedans in NASCAR?

Because the manufacturers want the general public to buy one.
Win on Sunday, sell on Monday.

Manufactures aren't in nascar for just bragging rights. They are there to sell cars.
 
gordonite said:
Why are there sedans in NASCAR?

Because the manufacturers want the general public to buy one.
Win on Sunday, sell on Monday.

Manufactures aren't in nascar for just bragging rights. They are there to sell cars.
Click to expand...
That, and because none of the manufacturers make coupes that meet the requirements anymore. That's why Ford had to start running Tauruses in the late 90's after the T-Bird was discontinued, because they had nothing else that would fit the bill. They could run the pony cars like the NW Series, but I think they should leave those cars in that series, as they give Nationwide more of an identity.
 
Nobody makes a 2 door full size car any more. The intermediate sized muscle cars of the 60's were larger than the full size sedans of today.

The Continental Sportscar Challenge is a show room stock body road race series. The GS class contains the top performing cars and include the Aston Martin Vantage, BMW M3, Chevy Camaro GS.R, Ford Mustang Boss 302 R, Nissan 370Z, Porsche 997 and Subaru WRX-STI. The ST class includes the BMW 128 and 325, Honda Civic Si, Hyundai Genesis, Mazda MX-5, Nissan Altima and Porsche Boxster and Cayman.

http://www.imsa.com/series/sportscar-challenge

I think Mazda has done more for grass roots racing than any other manufacturer.
 
There was a time when they raced convertibles. It would be interesting to see what a modern convertible would look like.
 
I wish they would run factory sheet metal. At least skin the cars that way. They could brace the panels for the needed strength. In the 70s and 80s they looked more stock and brand identity meant more.

They didnt have to have the superficial light and exhaust decals either because they genuinely looked like the given brand. Sad to say but those decals are very representative of the current "stock car racing" definition. Nascar sounds better than Nacar so keep printing those all important decals.

( I realize there is about a square inch on the trunk lid that is stock. Another superficial joke, a cynical crumb at best).

If the brands want the promotion then let em at least build cars that look good in race trim with something more than a decal for identity.

I realize the Ford verses the Hemi days are gone.
I still like to talk up the brand thing and rag the Ford folks about their inability to match Chevys wins and titles. But all of that is just wishful thinking wanting it to really mean something. Nascar also pursues parity, if one brand gets too good or if they stumble, no worries Nascar will do some leveling.

Aside from TRDs early 2013 grenades the teams are the all important matter. In todays generic world getting Hendrick to run your brand is bigger than what you actually build.
 
NASCAR was born when bootleggers started racing each other for money. They typically used the family sedans and coupes as their cars. The muscle cars weren't born until the mid 60's, NASCAR had already been around for over 15 years by then. I supposed NASCAR didn't want to switch at the time because more people could relate to a more common car than a pony car that was considered more of a niche.
 
MRM said:
NASCAR was born when bootleggers started racing each other for money. They typically used the family sedans and coupes as their cars. The muscle cars weren't born until the mid 60's, NASCAR had already been around for over 15 years by then. I supposed NASCAR didn't want to switch at the time because more people could relate to a more common car than a pony car that was considered more of a niche.
Click to expand...

Well that make sense and I can see the thinking behind that.
 
TooSweet said:
I blame Ford. They replaced the T-Bird with the god awful Taurus
Click to expand...

Yup, NASCAR approved the 4 door Taurus in 98'. Yet in 1995 Chevrolet had to bring back the Monte Carlo just for NASCAR competition because NASCAR did not approve the Lumina that switched to 4 doors that same year. Then they approved the 4 door Grand Prix, the 07' Camry then Chevrolet brought the Impala over the Monte Carlo in 08'.

I like the Gen 5 cars, they all look good and at least resembles the street versions. Not bad for common template cars and certain miles better then those ugly COT's.
 
it has evolved over time to what it is now, the guts of a race car with sheetmetal?(carbon fiber) that looks kinda like a street sedan in Nascar, and a pony car..if the manufacturer makes one, in N'wide, now the trucks are getting reworked to look similar to a street truck. Ah, it is a compromise. It has been many many years ago when a driver would drive his car to the track and back home after the race and a long time since they used stock sheet metal and frames.
 
They need to go back to when everyone started with something like this.

Screenshot_1.jpg

It would make the racing better by putting more importance on the driver IMO.
 
it has nothing to do with the cars/sheetmetal, it's the money. put a cap on the money each team can spend.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom