Discussion: Good old days vs. new style racing

I just like racing, and NASCAR is my favorite. It was different back in the day, good in many ways. Today is different from then, and good in many ways. Drivers want to race and win. Per our resident insider allenbaba, every driver he's talked to likes the current points and stage system better than anything previous. I like it too, but would like to see some modifications to select things.

What I really love are the stories and backgrounds on these drivers, crew chiefs, etc. Not from a celebrity point of view...the real pieces of what makes them who they are. All people, generally good folks, working and doing what they love.

Salute to the poster who recognized the K&K Insurance Dodge driven by Catawba's own Bobby Issac. He was my local hero as a kid, a guy who went from the local track to the big time. Issac competed with everyone, once held the record for fastest stock car via a Bonneville Salt Flats run, and was Grand National Champion in 1970. Died too soon after a hot night at a short track.
 
Conover said:
I just like racing, and NASCAR is my favorite. It was different back in the day, good in many ways. Today is different from then, and good in many ways. Drivers want to race and win. Per our resident insider allenbaba, every driver he's talked to likes the current points and stage system better than anything previous. I like it too, but would like to see some modifications to select things.

What I really love are the stories and backgrounds on these drivers, crew chiefs, etc. Not from a celebrity point of view...the real pieces of what makes them who they are. All people, generally good folks, working and doing what they love.

Salute to the poster who recognized the K&K Insurance Dodge driven by Catawba's own Bobby Issac. He was my local hero as a kid, a guy who went from the local track to the big time. Issac competed with everyone, once held the record for fastest stock car via a Bonneville Salt Flats run, and was Grand National Champion in 1970. Died too soon after a hot night at a short track.
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I really don't care for the racing format now....... but....... you are right I loved Bobby Issac...... who in their right mind wouldn't have???????? he was a helluva' driver......... salute to you for him being a local racer to you.........:cheers:
 
Spotter22 said:
The car is on the ground due to the setups, not the aero. Bump stops and softer springs, are the reason. Aero has been and always will be a part of racing, with NASCAR and Goodyear working on softer tires Mechanical grip will be more of an issue.
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I agree a lot. I am glad mechanical grip is being pursued.
I have followed cup racing a long time, but I will not claim to know enough to even pretend that I know everything about makes the cars work today.
But I do believe saving the tires became less important after the radial tires came along. I miss the bias ply tires.
I think tire management was more important this year, that is a great thing, and it has been needed for a long time.
 
Greg said:
I agree a lot. I am glad mechanical grip is being pursued.
I have followed cup racing a long time, but I will not claim to know enough to even pretend that I know everything about makes the cars work today.
But I do believe saving the tires became less important after the radial tires came along. I miss the bias ply tires.
I think tire management was more important this year, that is a great thing, and it has been needed for a long time.
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If you liked tire management this year next year will be even better. :D
 
kymartin6 said:
I really don't care for the racing format now....... but....... you are right I loved Bobby Issac...... who in their right mind wouldn't have???????? he was a helluva' driver......... salute to you for him being a local racer to you.........:cheers:
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We hear about the Alan Kulwicki story chapter and verse on a regular basis but no one knows about Bobby and his story makes Alan look like he was filthy rich. Bobby didn't really have an upbringing and went on to become a champion and received the highest praise possible by being spoken of highly by David Pearson. He has been gone just over 40 years now and may he rest in peace.
 
On the salt ...

bobby-isaac-at-bonneville-1971.jpg
 
Some posters on here say that the current car is an evolution , but other than aero not much has evolved. Rear suspension is from a 1960 Chevy truck, steering from the teens , body on frame? I think the Ford Crown Vic was the last of them in passenger cars. The 4 speed manual tranny is a thing of the past. Whats wrong with taking some aero out of what is already some of the oldest tech in racing. Lot of other ways to slow em down without all new chassis.
 
formula racer said:
Some posters on here say that the current car is an evolution , but other than aero not much has evolved. Rear suspension is from a 1960 Chevy truck, steering from the teens , body on frame? I think the Ford Crown Vic was the last of them in passenger cars. The 4 speed manual tranny is a thing of the past. Whats wrong with taking some aero out of what is already some of the oldest tech in racing. Lot of other ways to slow em down without all new chassis.
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Take a tape and measure 6 inches off the ground all the way around the car. Cut everything below the line.
 
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the racing. With reduced downforce, these cars are a handful and this is what 200 mph racing looks like. Obviously, it isn’t for everyone.

Again, any object moving through the air leaves turbulence in its wake. Golf balls, cinder blocks, aircraft, sheets of plywood, racecars ... anything that moves air molecules lying in its path. Turbulence and it’s effect on objects traveling through such a wake can only be reduced, not eliminated, by reducing the speed of the object.
 
aunty dive said:
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the racing. With reduced downforce, these cars are a handful and this is what 200 mph racing looks like. Obviously, it isn’t for everyone.

Again, any object moving through the air leaves turbulence in its wake. Golf balls, cinder blocks, aircraft, sheets of plywood, racecars ... anything that moves air molecules lying in its path. Turbulence and it’s effect on objects traveling through such a wake can only be reduced, not eliminated, by reducing the speed of the object.
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"Obviously, it isn’t for everyone."

You hit the nail on the head as judging by the predictable yearly drop off in attendance, viewership and overall interest not only is it not for everyone it is for less and less. I will let others argue about merits of the racing but good, bad or indifferent it is not getting the job done and with each new gimmick it gets worse.
 
Call it what you want, but I don't think ANYTHING good ever came out of letting the teams seal the air dam to the track. I also feel that allowing the cars to ride on bump stops was a big mistake. NASCAR got rid of them once, and then relented.
 
Formerjackman said:
Call it what you want, but I don't think ANYTHING good ever came out of letting the teams seal the air dam to the track. I also feel that allowing the cars to ride on bump stops was a big mistake. NASCAR got rid of them once, and then relented.
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I called it what it is. 6" of ground clearance was last seen at the first race in 1949.
 
aunty dive said:
Blissful ignorance has never provided a solution to an engineering problem.
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Ok. It's like this they have put restrictor plates on to slow them down. Want another Duralube 300 circa 2000 keep allowing the aeroseal to the track. It will not solve all of the aero problems. But it will sure as heck work better IMO than the path NASCAR is heading down. Not even my use a I heard it from Evernham, LaJoie, any Hillenberg. Yeah it is going to make them a bitch to drive. Gonna slow them down so they can make the corner instead of these rail cars now.

Glad they can allow the engineers to build a car that turns itself. Maybe we can put slots in the track so they can go even faster in a straight line. Not gonna be a whole lot of racing but a ton of engineering would be involved.
 
aunty dive said:
I called it what it is. 6" of ground clearance was last seen at the first race in 1949.
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Not so much. See any sealed side skirts? That goofy splitter being worn off from dragging. Nope.

4"-6" off the ground all the way around. Still gonna have a draft effect but you will lose a significant portion of this aero platform horse crud.
 
24ever said:
Here you go then.

View attachment 30530
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The discussion is about 200 mph racing on tracks that clearly demonstrate the kinds of inescapable problematic aero issues that “annoy” some race fans. Every race series has the same issues at those speeds.

The Oldsmobile pictured earlier had a measured static ride height of 4” at inspection. That car would be upside down, backwards and on fire in today’s environment. That’s a fact.
 
Formerjackman said:
That car qualified at 197.7 at Talladega. Besides, the whole point is we don't NEED 200 MPH race cars. The sport would be well served to knock a good 20 MPH of the pole speed at most tracks.
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Mopardh9 said:
Exactly that is what I have been saying for years, but AUNTY DIVER says no....so go figure.
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I have never once offered an opinion on the current race speed reality. Never. People who do this have always aspired to go faster. That’s what they’ve done. It is neither good nor bad ... it’s just racing.
 
aunty dive said:
I have never once offered an opinion on the current race speed reality. Never. People who do this have always aspired to go faster. That’s what they’ve done. It is neither good nor bad ... it’s just racing.
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So going 215 at Michigan is good for the sport, averaging 195 on a 1,5 is advantages for good racing? Please tell me how the sport has become better as the speeds have increased.
 
aunty dive said:
The discussion is about 200 mph racing on tracks that clearly demonstrate the kinds of inescapable problematic aero issues that “annoy” some race fans. Every race series has the same issues at those speeds.

The Oldsmobile pictured earlier had a measured static ride height of 4” at inspection. That car would be upside down, backwards and on fire in today’s environment. That’s a fact.
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Why?
 
aunty dive said:
The discussion is about 200 mph racing on tracks that clearly demonstrate the kinds of inescapable problematic aero issues that “annoy” some race fans. Every race series has the same issues at those speeds.

The Oldsmobile pictured earlier had a measured static ride height of 4” at inspection. That car would be upside down, backwards and on fire in today’s environment. That’s a fact.
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It wasn't upside down and on fire when it was running back then....wtf
 
aunty dive said:
I have never once offered an opinion on the current race speed reality. Never. People who do this have always aspired to go faster. That’s what they’ve done. It is neither good nor bad ... it’s just racing.
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I don't give a crap what anybody aspires to do. At the end of the day this is the entertainment business, and if you can't put on a show people will pay to see, then you're out of business. Speed does not now or seldom every did equate to a "good show". Modern equipment and modern physical conditioning has obsoleted a lot of the world's great golf courses, and the same thing has happened to it's race courses. You can DRIVE these race tracks at the current speeds, but it's very difficult to RACE them in an entertaining way at them. Slow the cars down, and some of the aero issues take care of themselves.
 
It's a great idea, let them find a bunch of 74 Olds, Pontiacs, and Toyota's, pipe in some 70's music, yeah that will fix it.
 
Formerjackman said:
Slow the cars down, and some of the aero issues take care of themselves.
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Slow the cars down and all of the aerodynamic effects will be reduced in magnitude by a factor relative to the reduction in velocity squared.

Science.
 
Formerjackman said:
I don't give a crap what anybody aspires to do. At the end of the day this is the entertainment business, and if you can't put on a show people will pay to see, then you're out of business. Speed does not now or seldom every did equate to a "good show". Modern equipment and modern physical conditioning has obsoleted a lot of the world's great golf courses, and the same thing has happened to it's race courses. You can DRIVE these race tracks at the current speeds, but it's very difficult to RACE them in an entertaining way at them. Slow the cars down, and some of the aero issues take care of themselves.
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Unfortunately for Nascar there a many more people that feel there is such a thing as a bad race and each year vote with their feet and eyeballs and leave.
 
Formerjackman said:
I don't give a crap what anybody aspires to do. At the end of the day this is the entertainment business, and if you can't put on a show people will pay to see, then you're out of business. Speed does not now or seldom every did equate to a "good show". Modern equipment and modern physical conditioning has obsoleted a lot of the world's great golf courses, and the same thing has happened to it's race courses. You can DRIVE these race tracks at the current speeds, but it's very difficult to RACE them in an entertaining way at them. Slow the cars down, and some of the aero issues take care of themselves.
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Bingo
 
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