NASCAR's future

buckaroo

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It is clear that the majority of fans are dissatisfied with what is happening on the NASCAR circuit and NASCAR knows it. They are trying to find ways to attract new fans and please the older ones. With technology being what it is, moving backwards is impossible. Once the horse is let out of the barn, etc. Every race this year has brought with it some sort of criticism. NASCAR has a problem and I'm not sure they can solve it. Every time they make a change, it causes unintended other problems. As I see it, the only way out of this is to backup and regroup, which means that NASCAR has to completely re-identify itself. Once the money dries up, drastic changes will be forced on the teams.

We've discussed this time and time again but who knows what the answer is. Getting rid of Bryan France really isn't the answer. Its the whole mindset that needs to be changed. But until that happens, NASCAR is on a course to nowhere.
 
Don't ever think that NASCRAP is all that concerned with the "FANS".....Their head is on the chopping block with the networks, regarding the next TV pkg.....The multi billion dollar contract is up for negotiations and it's NOT looking good.....
 
I don't know what the answer is. They turned me off several years ago and I hardly watch any of it anymore.

There is no way to undo what they have done over the years to run off a lot of the long time die hard fans that they thumbed their noses at time and time again. The new fans, that they spit on the long time fans for, seem to have moved on to the next fad. Stevie Wonder could have seen that coming, it's hard to see why NASCAR couldn't see it coming.

One of the biggest problems they have now is sponsorship. There just aren't that many companies out there who can afford to spend $20 million or more a year to sponsor a team. The economy is a big part of it, of course, but the decline in popularity of the sport is a huge factor too. Several years ago, everybody wanted to be a part of the fastest growing sport in america and the economy was doing great. That ship has sailed.

Fixing this mess would be a huge challenge for a good leadership group. How this group will handle it...well, their track record doesn't inpire much confidence.
 
I don't know what the answer is. They turned me off several years ago and I hardly watch any of it anymore.

There is no way to undo what they have done over the years to run off a lot of the long time die hard fans that they thumbed their noses at time and time again. The new fans, that they spit on the long time fans for, seem to have moved on to the next fad. Stevie Wonder could have seen that coming, it's hard to see why NASCAR couldn't see it coming.

One of the biggest problems they have now is sponsorship. There just aren't that many companies out there who can afford to spend $20 million or more a year to sponsor a team. The economy is a big part of it, of course, but the decline in popularity of the sport is a huge factor too. Several years ago, everybody wanted to be a part of the fastest growing sport in america and the economy was doing great. That ship has sailed.

Fixing this mess would be a huge challenge for a good leadership group. How this group will handle it...well, their track record doesn't inpire much confidence.
Well said. I agree completely.

Your very last statement :"...well, their track record doesn't inpire much confidence" rings expecially true. NA__AR has managed to lose almost all credibility with the bulk of the very fans who got it to where it is today. Until that is rectified, it's just a death spiral. Even when they manage to do something right, it remains suspect.
 
I don't know what the answer is. They turned me off several years ago and I hardly watch any of it anymore.

Specifically, what did they do turn you off?

There is no way to undo what they have done over the years to run off a lot of the long time die hard fans that they thumbed their noses at time and time again.

Could you please name a few things that they did just to run fans off?


One of the biggest problems they have now is sponsorship. There just aren't that many companies out there who can afford to spend $20 million or more a year to sponsor a team.

NASCAR has nothing to do with this and for the economy being the way it is, NASCAR as a whole is fairing pretty well. Attendance was up at California two weeks ago and I believe Michigan was as well.
 
Specifically, what did they do turn you off?



Could you please name a few things that they did just to run fans off?




NASCAR has nothing to do with this and for the economy being the way it is, NASCAR as a whole is fairing pretty well. Attendance was up at California two weeks ago and I believe Michigan was as well.

Announced attendance from NASCRAP was up 3000 at infineon.....down 7000 at michigan....down 15,000 at pocono...all compared to last years numbers
 
Specifically, what did they do turn you off?



Could you please name a few things that they did just to run fans off?




NASCAR has nothing to do with this and for the economy being the way it is, NASCAR as a whole is fairing pretty well. Attendance was up at California two weeks ago and I believe Michigan was as well.

1.The Chase
2.The Horrible plate racing.
3.Same car for everyone, basically spec racing.
4.High ticket prices, food price at races
5.Vanilla Pc perfect drivers for the most part
I'd say those are 5 good reasons why a lot of people are turned off to the sport.
 
1.The Chase
2.The Horrible plate racing.
3.Same car for everyone, basically spec racing.
4.High ticket prices, food price at races
5.Vanilla Pc perfect drivers for the most part
I'd say those are 5 good reasons why a lot of people are turned off to the sport.

+different rules for different teams.
 
Announced attendance from NASCRAP was up 3000 at infineon.....down 7000 at michigan....down 15,000 at pocono...all compared to last years numbers

+ I think the announced attendance is way higher than the actual.It's probably just like this past Super Bowl where they counted everybody that worked there and who were outside the stadium watching on tv's to try and get the attendance record.
 
1.The Chase
Would you rather have someone crowned the champ with several races left in the season. I actually like the chase because those drivers that are out of the chase can take some big risks and actually enhance the racing.

2.The Horrible plate racing.
I would rather have plate racing than cars going airborn and getting into the crowd. This will go away with FI, then everyone will complain about FI.

3.Same car for everyone, basically spec racing.
It has been many, many years since they have raced a stock car. A few years ago you might have had four cars with different noses but they were far from stock.

4.High ticket prices, food price at races
You can get four tickets, four meals and a program for $99 at WalMart. What other sport can boast those kind of prices?

5.Vanilla Pc perfect drivers for the most part
I can't argue with this.
 
Would you rather have someone crowned the champ with several races left in the season.
I would rather have plate racing than cars going airborn and getting into the crowd. This will go away with FI, then everyone will complain about FI.

You can get four tickets, four meals and a program for $99 at WalMart. What other sport can boast those kind of prices?

Yes

You can limit the engine size other ways like Mag said and still put on a better show

Drag Racing.with pit passes they may be a little more money but you get a HE77 of alot more driver access without having to pay thru the nose and don't have to go to Wal-Mart to get my tickets.
 
+ Cookie-cutter tracks
+ "The Chosen 35" which allows NA__AR to pick who runs and who doesn't (read: NA__AR encouraged MegaTeams)
+ NA__AR's allowing the "megaTeam," where team owners now have four outright teams and multiple satellite operations
+ Discarding traditions such as the Southern 500 at Darlington

The majority of my examples (Playoff format, gimmicks like Lucky Dawg, phantom debris cautions, inconsistency of rule enforcement, etc.) have all been previously mentioned.

NA__AR is now reaping what it has sown, declining interest and fan disenchantment. As someone else stated, Stevie Wonder could have seen this coming. What NA__AR has accomplished is to create a divide, on which one side is happy with this new product and self righteously claims anyone who doesn't like it really isn't a fan. On the other side you have people like I who feel disenfranchised by NA__AR and feel that we are race fans but not NA__AR fans because what NA__AR produces on a fairly regular basis isn't racing as we grew to know it.
 
If people don't like a product, they won't buy it.

The races everyone used to look forward to are now among the most boring (Daytona, Bristol, Richmond).

My solution would be to run every race at Martinsville.
 
I honestly see nothing wrong with NASCAR... I agree the two-car-tandems are sort of dull, but beyond that I couldn't be happier with the sport. We have some great racing and still some big sponsors. If the economy would recover we'd be fine. I won't ever understand what people see wrong with the racing. It's exciting as hell! You never know what's going to happen until the final 10 laps or so. I've only been watching for 11 years, but I have barely had 3 complaints about ANYTHING in my short time of being a fan. Maybe I'm missing something, but if the racing is great (and it is) I'm happy.

--- Oh and I also don't like how NASCAR kills a rivalry before it starts...
Two car tandems, and overly protective officials. Those are my only complaints.
 
I honestly see nothing wrong with NASCAR... I agree the two-car-tandems are sort of dull, but beyond that I couldn't be happier with the sport. We have some great racing and still some big sponsors. If the economy would recover we'd be fine. I won't ever understand what people see wrong with the racing. It's exciting as hell! You never know what's going to happen until the final 10 laps or so. I've only been watching for 11 years, but I have barely had 3 complaints about ANYTHING in my short time of being a fan. Maybe I'm missing something, but if the racing is great (and it is) I'm happy.

--- Oh and I also don't like how NASCAR kills a rivalry before it starts...
Two car tandems, and overly protective officials. Those are my only complaints.

The only reason the races are unpredictable is because of artificial late-race cautions.
 
Would you rather have someone crowned the champ with several races left in the season. I actually like the chase because those drivers that are out of the chase can take some big risks and actually enhance the racing.
Yes, because the alternative is what we have now, the season isn't important but only the first 26 races. The playoff system gives primary important to the championship,and not the individual race. This encourages points racing and just trying to "Hang in there" until the actual playoff starts. Then 99% of the focus is one the teams in the playoff and the remainder of the field is looked upon basically as just rolling obstacles and they drive seemingly with the specific target of NOT being the driver who put one of the playoff players out of contention.

I would rather have plate racing than cars going airborn and getting into the crowd. This will go away with FI, then everyone will complain about FI.
There are many different ways to prevent what you describe. Some it is changing the cars (I prefer making all the cars run to a STOCK factory template, thus making them aerodynamic as bricks) but changes to the track would help drastically (reducing the banking, putting a chicane on the back straight, etc.) Thanks for bringing up the Fuel Injection possibility. That's something which I haven't considered and will be anxious to see what NA__AR has in store for that, in conjunction with the two big tracks. You are right...That may be a game changer? I hope so because racing at Daytona and Talladega obviously needs something.


It has been many, many years since they have raced a stock car. A few years ago you might have had four cars with different noses but they were far from stock.
About 1964-1967 to be exact. I don't want Strictly Stock cars out there. That ship [rightfully] sailed decades ago. BUT I do want STOCK APPEARING cars! I want to see a Chevy that looks like a Chevy and a Ford that looks like a Ford and a Toyota which looks like a Toyota. You know, brand identification. Finding an old, dried cow pie and placing a [insert car maker here] decal on it has about the same affect as this POS car they currently run. The generic car design makes thing more aerodynamic, to be sure, but it's been pretty plain to see since NA__AR began, back in the 80's, to allow the teams to modify their car's bodies in the interest of parity, that good aero does NOT equal good racing!


You can get four tickets, four meals and a program for $99 at WalMart. What other sport can boast those kind of prices?
I can go to one of my local tracks and spend $20 for a ticket, $2 for a program (which gives me about six chances at being a Lucky Number winner) and another $20 for beer and some stale nachos or hot dogs (same quality as available at most NA__AR tracks) and see actual racing where the drivers are all elbows and a-holes for the entire length of every lap of every race on the program, not just for 4 or 5 laps. And I won't have to endure a trip to Walmart and its "WalMartians," which is ALWAYS a big plus, no matter what the occasion.
 
I don't know what the answer is. They turned me off several years ago and I hardly watch any of it anymore.

Yet here you are..If you believe some of these message boards, it seems that the most numerous "fans" of NASCAR now are those who follow it only because they love to hear themselves complain despite the sanctioning body doing what it can to keep up with the times and try to please as many people as possible.
 
You bring up a valid point... NASCAR rarely shows the "debris".

Do you honestly believe that a track worker that is making $15 an hour to chase phantom debris wouldn't sing like a jailbird about the third time he didn't pick anything up? Hell, he could get more money out of the story than he will make in a lifetime.
 
Yet here you are..If you believe some of these message boards, it seems that the most numerous "fans" of NASCAR now are those who follow it only because they love to hear themselves complain despite the sanctioning body doing what it can to keep up with the times and try to please as many people as possible.

Amen. You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time.

Been watching NASCAR since the early eighties, and will be doing so into my late eighties. Sure, there are some things NASCAR can change to please me, but it's still a product I enjoy and look forward to every race.

Bring on Kentucky!:beerbang::beerbang::beerbang:
 
Yet here you are..If you believe some of these message boards, it seems that the most numerous "fans" of NASCAR now are those who follow it only because they love to hear themselves complain despite the sanctioning body doing what it can to keep up with the times and try to please as many people as possible.

NASCAR is not doing a good job keeping up with the times.
 
Would you rather have someone crowned the champ with several races left in the season. I actually like the chase because those drivers that are out of the chase can take some big risks and actually enhance the racing.


I would rather have plate racing than cars going airborn and getting into the crowd. This will go away with FI, then everyone will complain about FI.


It has been many, many years since they have raced a stock car. A few years ago you might have had four cars with different noses but they were far from stock.


You can get four tickets, four meals and a program for $99 at WalMart. What other sport can boast those kind of prices?


I can't argue with this.

Well you asked, Yeh the cars need identity so we can tell what is a Ford, a Chevy, a Dodge, no reason why Nascar can't do this. I'd beg to differ on the prices, $4 for a hot dog, $8 for a beer I think that is pretty steep. Plates take the racing part out of Nascar, but they refuse to take them off, we have talked about this so many times. The solution is obvious yet Nascar refuses to fix it. The Chase sucks, it is a gimmick, and yes I'd rather see a champion crowned on consistency and excelence through the entire season, rather than based on a 10 race period. Teams playing possum for 26 races to just get into the Chase, then turning it on for the last 10 sucks. The trouble with Nascar is that they choose to address a problem with a gimmick or a band aid rather than really fixing the problem and they wonder why the stands aren't full, the ratings are down, and why sponsors are leaving.
 
Whoever said NASCAR was more affordable than any other sport:

ONE NASCAR Sprint Cup Series race costs about the same as going to several Orioles games.
 
Whoever said NASCAR was more affordable than any other sport:

ONE NASCAR Sprint Cup Series race costs about the same as going to several Orioles games.
I guess you could have posted prices like the other person did.
Baseball is so exciting:sarcasm: And Orioles are last in the East....Sounds like fun time
 
If I could, I would take Brian Frances and the board members of NASCAR and take them on a tour of short tracks across America. I'd want them to watch real stock car racing, because NASCAR obviously needs to get back in touch with it's roots, and the roots start at the short tracks.
 
I guess you could have posted prices like the other person did.
Baseball is so exciting:sarcasm: And Orioles are last in the East....Sounds like fun time

$5 beers,$1 hot dogs and $10 seats to watch the tied for 1st in the AL West Rangers.I would say that's cheaper.
 
$5 beers,$1 hot dogs and $10 seats to watch the tied for 1st in the AL West Rangers.I would say that's cheaper.

Concessions are a little steeper at Camden Yards, but it's understandable since they give away a lot of their tickets... plus they have IPA.
 
A few things I see as problems for NASCAR is:

- Lack of Rivalries! The closest thing we have had to a good 'ol rivalry is Harvick and Shrub. In the old days we didn't need "fabricated drama" the dirvers made the "drama" themselves. Where did all of this "I am so sorry I brushed you on the track" crap coming from?

-NASCAR needs it's popular drivers to do well. I know for myself, seeing the 24 back in victory lane really surged my interest in NASCAR...I am sure if others favorite drivers are doing well, this does the same for them. Guys like Junior, Stewart, Kahne and other popular drivers need to run well and give their fans something to cheer for. I now NASCAR has no control over this, but it is something that is missing.
 
I just want it to where the true mechanically minded folks can work their magic and not be stuck in a small box. Make the body rules close to each other like folks have said its gotta be close to show room template, and say its gotta be a 4 control arm front end with a 4 link rear end. But end the rules there. Let them play and learn and develop new stuff. It will start to trickle into street cars and then we will have cool street cars again maybe. But i get tired of hearing about gear rules and shock rules and spring rules screw it just tell em what they have to have as far as type of suspension and then tell the crew chiefs "boys have at it" man you would see so much cool stuff coming out. The cost argument does not hold water any more. These guys are gonna spend no matter what. Take the damn leash off and it might actually help cost. IMO
 
I just want it to where the true mechanically minded folks can work their magic and not be stuck in a small box. Make the body rules close to each other like folks have said its gotta be close to show room template, and say its gotta be a 4 control arm front end with a 4 link rear end. But end the rules there. Let them play and learn and develop new stuff. It will start to trickle into street cars and then we will have cool street cars again maybe. But i get tired of hearing about gear rules and shock rules and spring rules screw it just tell em what they have to have as far as type of suspension and then tell the crew chiefs "boys have at it" man you would see so much cool stuff coming out. The cost argument does not hold water any more. These guys are gonna spend no matter what. Take the damn leash off and it might actually help cost. IMO

Yep I agree, these guys have very little that they can be "creative with" anymore. I'd get rid of the gear rule and shock rule, along with commom templates, then maybe we wouldn't have the crap we have now at the superspeedways.
 
I place the blame on the new car. On 1.5 tracks ever notice that once one good car gets out front in clean air, it's gone unless he wears out his tires quicker than the guy behind him or a caution comes out. who wants to watch one car dominate a race?
 
It's not just one 'thing', it's a complex series of things. They quit having races at the old bullrings and build 1.5+ mile tracks one after the other. Seating 100,000 plus vs 50-60,000 +/-.
Parity suxs. It really comes into play with these larger tracks. I don't feel it's na$cars job to windtunnel each make and make them as equal as possible regarding drag v downforce. If a brand it getting it's azz handed to it it's their designers who should be working overtime to make corrections not na$car. Same with engine bore x stroke, max cam lift and compression ratio. Limit carb cfm but as long as there's guys like Barry Grant around that's a joke.

There was a time when you were close to 30 and had more than a few years beating and bangin' on local short tracks before you were even given a second thought of a BUSCH ride, never cup.

Now we have guys whose mommy's tuck into bed each night driving in cup.
Gillette Young Guns, what a joke they don't frikken* shave.

frikken used with Jr's permission.:D:beerbang:
 
Yet here you are..If you believe some of these message boards, it seems that the most numerous "fans" of NASCAR now are those who follow it only because they love to hear themselves complain despite the sanctioning body doing what it can to keep up with the times and try to please as many people as possible.

Actually, I am here because I have enjoyed this site for about 10 years now. I'm still here because of the people in here. It has nothing at all to do with NASCAR as it is now. I have been a NASCAR fan since rooting for Richard Petty back in the 70's. I eventually became a big Jeff Gordon fan. I've also cheered for many, many other drivers over the years, a few of whom still race today. However, most of what I liked about NASCAR has been removed over the years. I love short track racing and tracks like Darlington, Rockingham, and Richmond. I like a little beatin' and bangin' and drivers and their skill level having more to do with the outcome than who spent more on aero testing and how NASCAR is going to enforce their arbitrary rules that week.

NASCAR taking dates away from good tracks and giving them to places like California and the cookie cutters like Kansas and Chicago in an attempt to draw new fans at the expense of the long time fans was their choice and one they are reaping the results of now. I also really dislike the Chase. For many years, the champion was determined by who drove the best over the course of the entire season (what a concept!). Again, NASCAR said tradition and common sense be damned, we can fix what isn't broken and maybe get a few more fans to pay attention if we install a playoff. This is not meant to sound angry or bitter. I feel more apathy than anger at this point. It just is what it is. I was simply responding to the question about NASCAR's future.
 
I place the blame on the new car. On 1.5 tracks ever notice that once one good car gets out front in clean air, it's gone unless he wears out his tires quicker than the guy behind him or a caution comes out. who wants to watch one car dominate a race?

The same problem existed with the old car on the 1.5+ mile tracks. Remember "aeropush"... not to this extent.

Richmond, Atlanta, Indianapolis, Charlotte and Homestead used to put on pretty good races before the COT.
 
If I ran Nascar.......


The philosophy [bear with me I will be specify later on] or mission statement would be:


Good racing always, always will be the only objective. There can be no compromises.
Team owners, Promoters, Shareholders, Corporate backers, TV packages etc they all must understand their role as participants, but not as the actual product. Simply stated having the best racing possible rules the day, and is the greater, and only concern.

Personal profits is important, but we have enough faith in good racing to trust it alone. If that's unacceptable then you should sell your racing investments, stuff, interest, and run along, because we are not going to alter the product for you. No exceptions.


1. Stop the phantom cautions, and the preplanned competition cautions on lap 40 or 50 due to conditions.

-Any driver that is ruled to be intentionally creating a caution will be immediately disqualified. This also includes willingly waiting or idling after an incident to force a yellow.

-Pit road is always open, and pit road isn't closed to let everyone catch up with the pace car first.

Use local cautions on road courses, and full cautions as last option.

2. No more provisional, you must earn your right to race. I would utilize a last chance heat race.

3. Darlington, Wilksboro, Rockingham, and old Nashville Fairgrounds would be restored.

4. Cookie cutter and copied sister tracks would reconfigured to a unique design of it's own, or lose one race date. Exceptions for a mother track like Charlotte.


5. The schedule would be reduced to 30-32 races. Keeping the old traditional tracks and the new would be achievable by rotation (every 3 or 4 years a track only gets 1 date, rather than the usual 2).


6. Tires would be bias ply, and intentionally flawed. Designed to give up grip, (not puncture of blow out), before a tank of fuel is used. Tire management issues would demand the best from drivers, and provide genuine racing dramas.


7. I like the COTs safety and durability. But I would return it back to at least using as much factory stock sheet metal as possible. Hoods, trunk lids etc....


8. No more scheduling against the local Saturday night short tracks.


9. Put the Nationwide series back to the 80's schedule. As a bridge from local regional racing, to the big leagues it should be primarily a short track series.


10. Ban multicar teams.


11. Keep the 43-1 point structure. But the only bonus points would be for winning. That would be another 43, or double bonus points. The champion should be the biggest excitement, and the biggest winner, with the points serving primarily to break the ties.

No more chase. If this means a driver clinches in October with too many wins to be caught, then let's face the reality. That's honorable even if anti climatic. Allowing an inferior to steal it away via a reset would be a farce.


12. I would pursue rules that made it possible to be competitive on a $5 million budget. The goal would be to have 60-80 cars entering every week.
 
Yep I agree, these guys have very little that they can be "creative with" anymore. I'd get rid of the gear rule and shock rule, along with commom templates, then maybe we wouldn't have the crap we have now at the superspeedways.

These rules weren't designed to stifle creativity, but to give the lesser well funded teams a better chance of competing against those with nearly unlimited budgets. The common templates came about because NASCAR was tired of hearing teams running one or another of the different makes screeching that it wasn't fair that a competing brand had an extra 1/16 " somewhere in the shape of the splitter or wherever.
 
These rules weren't designed to stifle creativity, but to give the lesser well funded teams a better chance of competing against those with nearly unlimited budgets. The common templates came about because NASCAR was tired of hearing teams running one or another of the different makes screeching that it wasn't fair that a competing brand had an extra 1/16 " somewhere in the shape of the splitter or wherever.

Sure i know this, but where did it get Nascar, Like SST said let the manufacturers fix their sheet metal problems. I like inovations and creativity, there is very little of that now in ths sport.
 
These rules weren't designed to stifle creativity, but to give the lesser well funded teams a better chance of competing against those with nearly unlimited budgets.
This is going to come off like a snide remark and I honestly don't mean it as such but... In the words of Dr. Phil, "How's that working for them?" The number of even quasi-competitive team has increased or dropped in the last decade?


The common templates came about because NASCAR was tired of hearing teams running one or another of the different makes screeching that it wasn't fair that a competing brand had an extra 1/16 " somewhere in the shape of the splitter or wherever.
Why didn't NA__AR just tell the whiners to whine to their car maker and not to them? After all, NA__AR was in the race sanctioning business and not the race car design business, wasn't it?
 
Whoever said NASCAR was more affordable than any other sport:

ONE NASCAR Sprint Cup Series race costs about the same as going to several Orioles games.

The NASCAR season is about 1/5th as long as MLB, so 1 cup race would equal 5 Oriole games. And last time I checked, there were just as many empty seats at MLB games as NASCAR races.
 
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