New Engines in NASCAR??

E

Eagle1

Guest
That's Racin

Posted on Wed, Jan. 12, 2005



R E L A T E D C O N T E N T

Hendrick Motorsports
An engine is built at Hendrick Motorsports.





NASCAR, automakers take first steps toward new race engine

Move could have far-reaching impact

By JIM UTTER

ThatsRacin.com Writer


DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. – NASCAR has initiated discussions with the three manufacturers currently participating in its Nextel Cup Series – Ford, General Motors and Dodge – regarding the design and introduction of new engines, perhaps as early as the 2007 season.
Cup series director John Darby, as well as several manufacturer officials, confirmed Wednesday that discussions are under way to allow each manufacturer to design a new engine from a "clean sheet of paper."

"We’re looking ahead to the future," Darby said. "We don’t necessarily have an engine problem now. We’re not doing this to fix something.

"We’re doing this as a cooperative effort between NASCAR and the manufacturers to get everyone lined up on the same page."

While the types of cars used in NASCAR have changed significantly since its inception in 1949, the engines used in its premiere series are still based on the 358-cubic inch "small block" V-8 design first produced in the 1950s.

The small block V-8 design has become the cornerstone of NASCAR’s methods to maintain parity among manufacturers and limit the use of modern technology, which is more difficult to police.

Darby, as well as manufacturer officials, say the time is right to begin looking at a new direction in regards to engine development.

"What we’re looking for is a spot out in here in the future where we can, with the help and suggestions from the manufacturers, take all the basic design specifications and give all of the manufacturers the ability to … design a new engine with the same specs," he said.

The changes could be far-reaching.

New engines would be developed with the planned use of unleaded fuel. NASCAR has always utilized leaded fuel in its series. Even the use of fuel injection could be on the table.

"Do we have an interest in fuel injection? Probably not, but let’s address the question. The first responses have been that people don’t want to head that direction, but we’re not ruling anything out," Darby said.

"There is also the idea of unleaded fuel. We know that’s in our future. Are there things we can do to better accommodate the use of unleaded fuel?

"We will look at any areas. Is the compression ratio right? Is the cubic inch right? Do we need eight cylinders or do we need 20?"

Virtually everything is being considered, Darby said, although it is unlikely NASCAR will be able to do away completely with the use of carburetor restrictor plates at the series’ superspeedways.

"Engines at California pull 800 horsepower. Engines at Daytona (with the plate) run about 400 horsepower," he said. "That’s a big change.

"A lot of people are quick to forget when we used to run without plates, an open engine probably didn’t surpass 500 horsepower. Now, we’re 300 ahead of that."

The reaction from manufacturers has so far been favorable.

"It’s going to be, ‘Let the best man win,’ " said Jim Covey, GM Racing NASCAR engine development manager. "The time is right for this.

"Everything has been based off a stock production engine, but we’ve gone way beyond that. This will make each manufacturer work hard to come up with the best design."

Covey said an introduction in the 2007 season is feasible if NASCAR sets the basic specifications by the end of February.

He believes the Cup series will see the new engines first, followed by a gradual introduction into the Busch and Truck series.

Ford team owner Robert Yates, who builds most of the Ford engines used in Cup in a collaborative effort with Roush Racing, is receptive to changes, but skeptical of starting over from scratch.

"There are two missions I’ve been on for a lot of years – we don’t need to turn these things over 10,000 rpm and make the parts that will accept that; and we don’t need this many cubic inches," Yates said.

"What we need are more-efficient engines. What we don’t need is another wiping everything out and all these parts. I think we can stay with this platform, but make it simpler."

Officials with Dodge are receptive to the development of a new engine, a spokesperson said, but John Fernandez, head of Dodge’s motorsports program, was unavailable for comment.
 
Eagle,

I wonder if NASCAR will finally come into the 21st century?

Maybe allow some of the same ancient technology which we're finally seeing in our passenger cars?

Overhead cam, 4 valve heads, varible valve timing and electronic fuel injection?
All would be easier for the sanctioning body to police than what they're running now, but from that article it sounds as if NASCAR is still scared to death of allowing any electronics into the car. Doggone it, with all the engineers involved today, one would think that NASCAR would come to its senses and allow their technology to at least catch up to late 20th century.

DOHC, 4 valve heads have been around since the first decade of the last century and electronic fuel injection has been around for nearly fifty years now. It's not as if this stuff is rocket science.
Or maybe it really is?
 
My idea on this would be 4 litres and only check for that! Run anything on those 4 litres that you want. Let the cream rise to the top.
Betsy
 
My thoughts keep wondering if this isn't really a move to help level the playing field for Toyota when they come into Cup?
 
I think the fear of electronics is seeing what F1 has become.......the driver is only the co-pilot. I'm pretty neutral on new engines........I'm not a mechanic. But, new technology would likely be very good for the sport and the fans.
 
they need to leave things alone. i can already see toyota tryin to build a 4 banger. probably have nos stickers and a coffee can on the exhaust tip. then whats next. you start talking electronics and your getting into rough waters like traction control and stability control and fuel management. standard v8 if they want to do something why not have big blocks instead of small blocks. that would make a change. dodge runs the 426 hemi, ford gets the 460 out, gm gets the 454 out. its worth a try rather than going like them indy deals.

if you go with electronics and new technology then its going to be 2 teams hendrick and roush. depends on who has more money. the rich just got richer and the poor is still poor.
 
Overhead Cam or Dual Overhead Cam, 4 Valves per cylinder, fuel injection, 5 speed transmissions.
 
hemi008 I think the idea is to take out some H/P rather than add to it. And it would be nice to be able to go down th the auto place and purchase a car like the one on the track with a similiar engine in it. Where, pray tell, can I go down and purchase one like they are racing now with a 358 cu in it? But the v-6 seems to be where it is now and I betcha one of them could reach the speeds of todays tracks.
I'd like to see a 4 litre limit and the engine must be available in the model raced. And with the same NUMBER OF DOORS... The door thing is so cheezy.
Betsy
 
Hemi,

It sounds to me as if you're not too well versed with the history of NASCAR nor that of Toyota Motor Company.

Those big blocks went the way of the dinosaur for a reason: they were too big and heavy in relation to the power output and wouldn't fit in the downsized cars of the late 1970's and early 1980's.

In any kind of racing, weight is the enemy. You try to make things as light as possible; it's like adding horsepower without all the hassle; not to mention removing extra weight from the front of the car makes a rather large improvement in the way the car car get through the corners.
We won't go into things like fuel efficency or tire wear; let's just say those are also factors which need to be considered as well.
Current 358 c.i. engines are pulling over 200hp more than what the old 426 Hemi or 429 shotgun Fords were capable of, simply because the smaller engine can rev higher, faster, than the old big blocks.

As for Toyota, they had a hemi-head V8, ohv engine back in the mid 50's or so.
They currently have an ohv, 358 c.i. V8 engine which they are using in the CTS and they had a nice little V6 engine which was pretty hard to beat in the old NASCAR Dash series.
They've been around NASCAR racing for a few years now, just have not jumped into the Cup series yet.
FYI, most of the Camrys and all of the new, full-size Toyota trucks sold in the United States, are built in the United States and Toyota is currently building a new truck plant as well as an engine factory in Texas in order to better meet the demand for their product here.
Last time I checked, the Camry was also the top selling car in the country, so why should Toyota not race its products in NASCAR?

Ability to police electronic systems? Electronic systems are much easier to police than what is being run today. Just download a program into a laptop, plug it into the car's electrical system and it will tell you whatever you need to know about what's programmed into the car's computer. It really is that simple.

NASCAR is way overdue for some serious updating of its thinking and its racecars.

Have a nice day.
 
I would like to see Nascar get out of the 50's and start running something at least close to what you see in the showrooms. If they go to a 4.0 engine I would like to see them at least look at the V6 option. At a min. it ought to be a 4 valve, SOHC and have fuel injection. The electronics shouldn't be a problem if they will get someone that isn't afraid of computers. To keep using a carb though is plain dumb. We have a couple of generation of kids now that don't even know what it is let alone have even a faint idea of doing anything with it.
 
Im all for making the engines updated but im not too keen on the idea they want to make all them the same. The common template was a good idea because it was getting pretty hard to make the cars even without changing them during the year. I think you have to give the manufacturers some differences or else not even bother putting the logos on the cars.
 
Oldgoat said:
I would like to see Nascar get out of the 50's and start running something at least close to what you see in the showrooms.
Click to expand...
Excuse me, but wouldn't that be going back to the early days? That's when they used to run cars that were close to production models.

What kind of bugs me is what they name the cars. Monte Carlo, Taurus and now Charger are nothing even close to the real thing, Why not just say GM, Ford and DC? Isn't that where the money comes from anyway?
 
toyota is what it says in its name.. toy. second its japanese. i dont care if its built here it is still japanese. if they ever put anything other than a v8 they will kill racing. i cant stand to see nascar with cars that sound like weed whackers. and for your information they need to go faster. there is no reason whey they cant. they have all the safety stuff. no reason. i say big blocks because it gives everyone a new slate, and they would have more torque for short tracks and they would add weight which you said you need to slow the car down what do you think adding weight does???? it would change handling issues and no one would have a clue for setups to have an advantage. everyone would be EQUAL. let toyota in they can run there joke 4 bangers and v6's. if you really want to get nuts how bout they have it where if you can build it then you can run it. toyota doesnt have a car to run in cup anyway. what are they going to run, the avalon. haha. ha.
 
Hemi,

Toyota already has a NASCAR legal, 358 c.i., OHV V8 engine which is competing in the Craftsman Truck series.
The car which I've heard most mentioned for Cup competition is the Camry; that's their best seller here in the US and is an American built automobile.

Stop trying to fight a war that ended in1945, wake up to the fact that we live in a global economy, have been for several decades now, and as a country need desperately to learn how to compete in that economy if we are to remain a world power.

As for the common templates for the cars; this is an area where the team with the most money and time to spend in the wind tunnel would be (and usually is) completely untouchable if it were not controlled with those templates. This is also an area which is starting to show up on some of the cars that race on short tracks as well. Things like the shape of front valance, grille, fenders, windshield and door pillars and the angles and shape of the rear "C" pillar, rear window and deck lid all make a big difference in on track performance.
While it used to be believed that aerodynamics were not that important at lower speeds, we now know this is not the case. Any body in motion is effected by, and can benefit from, careful aerodynamic design and construction.

The days of the big blocks ended thirty years ago and NASCAR race cars started to show a small amount of real engineering. Unfortunately, the only areas where that engineering has been allowed to continue is in the aero package, and in development of the small block engines; engines which are themselves quite obsolete for today's real world purposes. (Have to mention that there has been some advancement in driver safety systems of late as well.)
How many front engine, rear wheel drive, two door sedans have you seen at your local dealer lately?

Those big blocks? They're great for oversized pickup trucks which are used for towing heavy loads.

Perhaps you should take a few minutes to think about what you're posting before you hit the submit key?

Just one more small thing for you to think about, for fifty years or more, the engine of choice for race cars in this country was four cylinder, DOHC, 4 valve per cylinder, and fuel injected.
Near the end of its reign, running a turbo charger, it was producing HP numbers about the same as the current NASCAR engines. The only thing that killed its popularity were rule changes which limited the amount of boost it was allowed.
The basic design was stolen from a French Ballot that raced at Indianapolis around 1919 or so and I believe Ballot borrowed the design from Peugot who had introduced it a few years earlier.
Keep in mind that this is the design of choice for most modern engines in our passenger vehicles.
The only real new advances in automotive technology in recent years have been in new and lighter metal alloys, plastics, carbon fibre and electronic control systems. These are the areas that NASCAR needs to explore and embrace if it wishes to continue to enjoy its relationship with the manufacturers and the legions of new fans who are more interested in computers and video games than in internal combustion engines.

Time changes all things. Always has, hopefully it always will.
 
look man i know you think you know everything, but you dont. mark my words nascar will have the same problem as indy. it will split into 2 groups be like indy and cart. whats going to happen is your talking about all this bull**** electronic stuff and all these new rules and toyota and all this money and sponsors and fans that like it now and before, and someone else will create a series and do things the old way like it was say 5 years ago. dont say it wont happen because ive seen it before. heres what i think ought to happen but i know it wont because there is not enough recognition, busch series should be the way it was about 5 - 10 years ago when it was a growing sport and none of this money and none of the technological crap and wind tunnel time. have no provisionals only dodge chevy and ford. nothing else nothing less. big 3 get there recognition and everyone is happy.

heres your way. toyota will get involved be running v6's cars with treaded tires probably reduced power about 400 - 500. whole car carbon fiber all electronic. traction control, abs, stability control, EFI, fuel management, rev limiters, electronically controlled everything from brakes to engine performance, to adjustable spoilers and aero. the cars will basically be those lemans cars with 4 doors then mazda will get involved with ford and dodge will bring in mercedes, and nissan will come in. hell even mitsu****zu.
and on top of all that it will be a competition between who can spend the most money and this and that. you will lose fans and sponsors, and it will be just like indy and cart. now you tell me a different way. that is exactly what will happen.

and america needs to stay american. you have all these mexican places and japanese deal coming through taking our jobs away and all this political bull.

and about the big blocks it would work, because yes they are good for towing but guess what rpm's would be down not as much money goes into development, and everyone is happy. so with that said good day sir. heres 25 cents go call someone who cares about your opinions
 
and FYI:

Hemispherical combustion chambers first appeared in the 1904 Welch touring car, and Chrysler built its first hemi-head engine during World War II-a prototype V-16 aircraft powerplant. By that time, hemi chambers (shaped like half of a tennis ball) had already proven themselves in air-cooled radial aero engines, in motorcycles, and in racing and production cars. The design could accommodate larger valves, which gave it excellent breathing potential. Its low surface-to-volume ratio gave it superior thermal efficiency. And the hemi chamber worked well with the higher compression ratios now made possible with new high-octane gasoline.

so once again you are wrong bob.
 
also if you know anything, you could have a 2 cylinder just as long as the power to weight ratio is there.

look at a go-kart. 300 lbs max kart, 125cc engine, and speeds of 120 i know this because i used to race them. not the shifter carts but single speed 100cc yamaha powered. but i know people that race them and i used to be around that stuff all day

those 4 cylinder deals you speak of got there ass kicked by a car built by shelby if you remember correctly, called the cobra.

so go back rethink your history and think before you speak.
 
Hemi, my friend,

I'm not going to try and argue with you. It's obvious that you are not reading what is being posted, or if you are, it is beyond your comprehension.

Your posts tell me that you have little, if any, mechanical background, and probably the closest you've ever come to a race car is to walk around a show car at the local shopping mall or maybe you've been able to gain admission to the pits at some time.

Your posted information on the design advantage of a hemispherical combustion chamber for an internal combustion engine is only partially correct by the way. You failed to mention the most important reason for the design.

It's also very apparent that you are more than just a bit of a bigot as well.

As far as knowing it all; if that were true, I most assuredly would not waste time on message forums on my computer.
I would be engaged in solving some of the truly important problems facing humanity; polution and the ecology, economic problems, overpopulation, disease and famine, or maybe just figure out how to bring peace to the world.
Just a few simple solutions to some very minor problems.

But...

By taking part in these forums, I find out how much I do not know.
There's a whole world of information available if we only take the time to pay attention to what others are willing to share.

Why not have another toddy and then get a good night's sleep. The world may look brighter to you in the morning.

Have a good night.
 
Doggone it Hemi, I was just rereading your posts and missed it completely the first time around.

You say NASCAR needs to run big block V8's, that they should not even consider four or six cylinder engines; then you say they need to return to what the Busch series was five or ten years ago.

Think about that!
 
Hemi008 said:
and FYI:
Hemispherical combustion chambers first appeared in the 1904 Welch touring car, and Chrysler built its first hemi-head engine during World War II-a prototype V-16 aircraft powerplant. By that time, hemi chambers (shaped like half of a tennis ball) had already proven themselves in air-cooled radial aero engines, in motorcycles, and in racing and production cars. The design could accommodate larger valves, which gave it excellent breathing potential. Its low surface-to-volume ratio gave it superior thermal efficiency. And the hemi chamber worked well with the higher compression ratios now made possible with new high-octane gasoline.

so once again you are wrong bob.
Click to expand...
Upper case characters? :p Glad to see that you can Copy and Paste.
 
I cant talk to this son of a bitch. i cant, i cant.

oh and by the way bob i am a technician.
 
and i said the way nascar was about 10 or so years ago. not busch. i said busch sould be like nascar was about ten years ago. so that nascar can be like it is now. and busch can be like winston cup about 10 years ago.

example.
besch=cup 10 years ago
nextel cup=now

easiest way i can put it unless you want me to spell it out or would you like a calculator.
 
The way Brian France is going I think we are going to see 4 cyl cars with neon lights under them before we see big blocks come back
 
Hemi,

No one, and I mean no one, calls me that name to my face and walks away from it!
You have insulted my mother who passed away more than 50 years ago and I demand a public apology.

This board is intended for discussion, not for name calling.
I have been a member here for quite some time now without problems with others. I try to contribute whatever knowledge which I've acquired in my life, including over forty years spent in and around racing.

I've been certified by GM, Ford, Volkswagen, BMW, Detroit and Cummings diesel, along with AAA, NIASE and ASE (Was one of the first in the country to hold NIASE (ASE) certification as a general technician in auto, heavy truck, and auto body.) and have taught auto mechanics at the trade school level.
I've also done some writing and photography on the semi-professional level, including race coverage, since health forced me to cut back on my garage activities.
All of that a a buck and quarter will buy me a large coffee to go at the local "Gas 'n'Go".

You have proven to most of us here that while you have a valid opinion, you seem to have some problems with listening to what others have to say and the reasons why their opinions may differ from your own.

Above all, I cannot allow the public insult to my mother to stand and will await either your apology or will be forced ask the moderators to take what ever actions they deem appropriate.

I'd wish you a nice day, but find that impossible in light of your latest remarks.
 
Hemi, lighten up and TRY to enjoy the forum without name caling and disrespect for other posters!
R-E-S-P-E-C-T others and you'll earn the respect of others. Learn to take your foot out of your mouth before you post.
 
all right man im sorry for my snide remarks at you bob but you must also appologize to me as well. i hope we can get on with our lives and put this behind us. I respect you and all but you need to respect me as well.

have a nice day.
 
SAeems the trend is to make the cars more like the cars on the road. Fine, the 'Brick' body design will do some of the slowing down---more upright windshields, less aerodynamics and less spoiler. You cannot, to my knowlege buy any of the models currently being run in Nextel Cup with a V8 engine from a showroom floor.

I have no problem with FI, technology is such any cheating should be caught tere as easily as with the outmoded carburetors----which are also impossible to buy on a new car. Heck fire' make /em use the stock computers---chips can also be checked for cheating.

Put power windows, rear window defrosters, and power radio antenna's!!

There is no reason to allow more electronics than in use now---stock car racing has always been a collaboration between the mechanic and the driver----seems to me racing is a lot more fun thataway! ;)
 
About 10 years ago I thought that way......actually, to some degree I still do, Handymac. I agree the cars should look a lot more like the cars we purchase and drive on our public streets and highways. But, I've gotten away from thinking they should have the same engines and suspensions. Can you imagine NASCAR racing when the pole sitter ran a whopping 120 mph average around Michigan International Speedway? :) As for the computers and electronics.........I could go along with that. But, remember how expensive that stuff is..........aren't we trying to control a little of the cost to put a competitive car on the track? Computerized fuel control, rpm (we already have a primitive computer for that........called "rev limiter chips"), telemetry, proximetry warning, etc would be great and they would enhance both the safety and competitiveness of the sport (my opinion......I'm no sceintist on this subject). But things like traction control, automatic shifting, computerized brake control, etc. would take too much away from the driver and make a race more like an arcade game with humans along for the ride.....Six Flags Magic Mountain comes to mind!! :D

So I think the engines need to be pretty much what they are........big enough to hurl a 3400 lb chunk of steel, plastic and rubber around an oval course at breath taking speeds. Upgraded and improved as progress progesses along. Somehow, a screeching 4 banger, no matter how many rpm's the thing can turn, just doesn't make for me. :)
 
DE_W Those engines are doing it good, but they are doing it with a carb handicap as it is now. If 2 cylinders were sawed off of the block and the same carb was utilized.. What then? I betcha some of the fancy body work could be eliminated and maybe the races would be closer. Whatever happens the wonderful 358 is at this time a race only engine. It no longer represents Detroit's efforts of today. If all they are going to sell us is 4's and 6'es then that is what I think they should put on the track.
Betsy
 
glad someone agrees with me on the small engines and money aspect.
 
Hemi,
Apology accepted. Enjoy the forum.

DEW2,

You mention the need for a large engine to pull a 3400 lb. vehicle.
Why do we need to have a 3400 lb. vehicle? Not one of the current race cars will meet the minimum weight rules without added weight. Why not drop that weight limit as well as the engine size?

In the mid 1980's the Offenhauser engines were less than 300 c.i. and, if memory serves me correctly, about 1,000 hp with lots of boost from their turbos, or about 200 hp more than what we see now in the 358 c.i. cup engines for NNC. There was even one inline, six cylinder AMC engine developing around 1000 hp from something like 199 c.i. about the same time.

Hemi,
Shelby's Cobra had nothing to do with killing off the Offy; USAC killed the Offy in the mid 1980's by rules which limited the amount of boost.
(For all you folks who think a four cylinder engine sounds like an angry swarm of hornets, it's quite plain you've never heard an Offenhauser engine at full song. They called them "The Growler" for good reason.)

Why should the cars not be made to more resemble the actual street car which they are supposed to represent?
Those street cars are a lot more aerodynamic than what we were driving only a few years ago.
Of course, there is nothing on the current NASCAR "stock car" which is stock anyhow. Every part is either from the aftermarket or extensively modified by the teams, or in most cases, both.

Why are fans so concerned about the costs to the teams?
The teams are not spending their own money. If they were, I'd be willing to bet those costs would drop like a lead weight falling from the top of the grandstand at Bristol.
Average engine now is over $70,000 each. Team inventories are usually in the dozens.
Car is up around $35,000 or more. Most teams have at least one car for each track, some will have two. What's that? Anywhere from 15 to 30 cars in the shop?
A cheap hauler (without any accessories) is around a quarter million. Most teams will have at least two of these as well.
CNC machining centers are well over a million dollars each. Some teams have five or six of them in their machine shops.
How about multi-million dollar showplaces, palaces to the team owner's ego for shops?
With costs such as this, where is the excuse to NOT bring thinking and engineering into the current century?
The technology is there, it would be a very simple matter to adapt it, would be much easier to police than what NASCAR is doing today, and would, I believe, cut costs for the teams.

To think or suggest that NASCAR would ever return to running real "stock cars" on short tracks around the country is not only unrealistic, it is rediculous in the extreme.
Would major league baseball return to sandlots in small towns? Or would we see the NFL playing on highschool or college fields for a couple of thousand spectators?
Of course not.
Most of the tracks which are losing races are tracks which have limited seating capacity, limited expansion possibility, and limited infrastructure in the area for the expansion which is necessary to make a top tier NASCAR event profitable. (Not to mention, they have a record of not selling the limited seating they do have.)
If the events are not profitable, where is the justification to continue at any given venue?

It's all about the color of the ink on the bottom line.
 
:)

I just reread my post........guess I did imply there should be no engine changes. That was not really what I was trying to say, though. What I have a very difficult time imagining is how a 4 banger could ever have that deep, loud, throaty roar that the big V-8's have!! :) Drop the weight and decrease the displacement........but don't take away that thrill of 43 thundering V-8's roaring by out of turn 4!! :D

I know the sound does not dictate speed..........but it sure adds to the perception!! :beerbang:
 
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