Now NASCAR Mandates Camber

kat2220

kat2220

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jun 11, 2002
Messages
16,886
Points
0
Location
Marietta, GA
NASCAR mandates camber angle for front wheels

By JIM UTTER

ThatsRacin.com Writer


WATKINS GLEN, N.Y. – NASCAR has decided to do what many of its Nextel Cup series crew chiefs would not – alter race set-ups to reduce the chance of blown tires.
Beginning next weekend at Michigan International Speedway, NASCAR will mandate a maximum front-wheel camber angle of eight degrees. Camber is the degree tires are tilted in order to maximize its performance through the turns.

NASCAR issued a technical bulletin to teams this weekend notifying them of the change. Aggressive chassis set-ups – including high degrees of camber and low air pressures – have been blamed for several tire problems this season, most notably at Pocono and Michigan.

"I think a lot of the problems are race track specific, but NASCAR felt it had to do something," said Greg Zipadelli, crew chief for series points leader Tony Stewart.

"At some of these big, flat race tracks you start with a lot of static camber in your car. You've seen cars with nine, 10, 11 degrees of camber in them. We're trying to use that left-front (tire) as much as we can."

Zipadelli said tire problems this season are a result of several factors, including camber, but also low pressure and track conditions.

"I understand the camber situation, NASCAR came up with a camber rule for the right-rear before," said Robbie Loomis, crew chief for four-time Cup champion Jeff Gordon.

"Now, we've gotten to the point where everyone is abusing the left-fronts. But I think the side that is hard to control is the air pressure."

Loomis said many teams are using camber and air pressure to maximize the grip in the left-front tire.

"People are just trying to take advantage of what you can to get the most of your car," Loomis said.


From TR
 
I have an idea. Why doesn't NASCAR install railroad tracks and have the cars ride the rails? :cool:
 
If the crew chiefs would use their heads when they set up the cars NASCAR would not need to set so many limits.

All of the "expert" fans have been bitching out Goodyear for the "junk" tires.
I've got news for ya, it ain't the tires, stupid, it's the morons who are trying to take front end geometry "one step beyond"!

They make pyrometers for a reason.
You measure your tire temperatures across the width of the tire for a reason.
You set your camber to equalize those temperatures for a reason.
And you adjust your camber curve over the suspension travel for a reason.

The problem is that a few crew chiefs figure they're smarter than the engineers who built the tires, the engineers who figure out what all those numbers should ideally be, and since they're smarter than all those engineers, they send their drivers out on the track with barely enough tire pressure to hold the tire bead seated on the rim, they run the tire over onto the sidewalls, it overheats and blows out and they still insist that their setups are the best way to go fast.

I honestly can't see how they figure that's true; they're not going very fast while they're sitting in the pits changing all those blown out tires, repairing the damage to the bodywork, or loading up a wrecked racecar while their driver is being flown to the nearest hospital.

But since they're smarter than the engneers, they're sure a lot smarter than me!

What's the difference between setting limits on things like internal engine parts and demensions, body shape and dimensions, gear rules, tire specifications, rear wheel camber/alignment, and putting limits on the amount of front wheel camber?

Again, if the idiots who are pushing the limits beyond the design limitations of the tires and the realm of the realities of the engineering world, there by playing stupid games with the safety of not only their driver, but all the others on the track, NASCAR would not need to be setting limits and making new rules, now would they?

Give it some serious thought instead of the automatic, "NASCAR's wrong for doing this" reaction so popular with so many who are not affected in anyway whatsoever by what NASCAR does or doesn't do.

Thanks for indulging my morning rant!
 
boB! You're being logical. Are you allowed to do that here? :lol2:

But the crew chiefs job is the win a race. Not make Goodyear look good. I still say there is a good reason why Goodyear did not survive in some other competitive race series. And it's not the color of their emblem. :growl:
 
boB, gotta a question for you, and I'm not trying to be a smartass. You obviously have some background in racing. Did or do you work on a team or were you a driver?
 
boB said:
If the crew chiefs would use their heads when they set up the cars NASCAR would not need to set so many limits.

All of the "expert" fans have been bitching out Goodyear for the "junk" tires.
I've got news for ya, it ain't the tires, stupid, it's the morons who are trying to take front end geometry "one step beyond"!

They make pyrometers for a reason.
You measure your tire temperatures across the width of the tire for a reason.
You set your camber to equalize those temperatures for a reason.
And you adjust your camber curve over the suspension travel for a reason.

The problem is that a few crew chiefs figure they're smarter than the engineers who built the tires, the engineers who figure out what all those numbers should ideally be, and since they're smarter than all those engineers, they send their drivers out on the track with barely enough tire pressure to hold the tire bead seated on the rim, they run the tire over onto the sidewalls, it overheats and blows out and they still insist that their setups are the best way to go fast.

I honestly can't see how they figure that's true; they're not going very fast while they're sitting in the pits changing all those blown out tires, repairing the damage to the bodywork, or loading up a wrecked racecar while their driver is being flown to the nearest hospital.

But since they're smarter than the engneers, they're sure a lot smarter than me!

What's the difference between setting limits on things like internal engine parts and demensions, body shape and dimensions, gear rules, tire specifications, rear wheel camber/alignment, and putting limits on the amount of front wheel camber?

Again, if the idiots who are pushing the limits beyond the design limitations of the tires and the realm of the realities of the engineering world, there by playing stupid games with the safety of not only their driver, but all the others on the track, NASCAR would not need to be setting limits and making new rules, now would they?

Give it some serious thought instead of the automatic, "NASCAR's wrong for doing this" reaction so popular with so many who are not affected in anyway whatsoever by what NASCAR does or doesn't do.

Thanks for indulging my morning rant!
Click to expand...
Makes alot of sense to me.
 
boB said:
If the crew chiefs would use their heads when they set up the cars NASCAR would not need to set so many limits.

All of the "expert" fans have been bitching out Goodyear for the "junk" tires.
I've got news for ya, it ain't the tires, stupid, it's the morons who are trying to take front end geometry "one step beyond"!

They make pyrometers for a reason.
You measure your tire temperatures across the width of the tire for a reason.
You set your camber to equalize those temperatures for a reason.
And you adjust your camber curve over the suspension travel for a reason.

The problem is that a few crew chiefs figure they're smarter than the engineers who built the tires, the engineers who figure out what all those numbers should ideally be, and since they're smarter than all those engineers, they send their drivers out on the track with barely enough tire pressure to hold the tire bead seated on the rim, they run the tire over onto the sidewalls, it overheats and blows out and they still insist that their setups are the best way to go fast.

I honestly can't see how they figure that's true; they're not going very fast while they're sitting in the pits changing all those blown out tires, repairing the damage to the bodywork, or loading up a wrecked racecar while their driver is being flown to the nearest hospital.

But since they're smarter than the engneers, they're sure a lot smarter than me!

What's the difference between setting limits on things like internal engine parts and demensions, body shape and dimensions, gear rules, tire specifications, rear wheel camber/alignment, and putting limits on the amount of front wheel camber?

Again, if the idiots who are pushing the limits beyond the design limitations of the tires and the realm of the realities of the engineering world, there by playing stupid games with the safety of not only their driver, but all the others on the track, NASCAR would not need to be setting limits and making new rules, now would they?

Give it some serious thought instead of the automatic, "NASCAR's wrong for doing this" reaction so popular with so many who are not affected in anyway whatsoever by what NASCAR does or doesn't do.

Thanks for indulging my morning rant!
Click to expand...

That's hitting the ole nail squarly on the head boB!! :beerbang:
 
The problem I have with boB's comments is that in his view Goodyear has smart engineers, but race teams have over aggressive crew chiefs. As a matter of fact, race teams have smart engineers as well. Plenty of them. It's a two way street. Sure, cars should be set up not to destroy tires, but tires should also be made not to disintegrate in a few laps.

Gioodyear got out of F1 and Indy cars because they could not compete with the competition. The same would happen in NASCAR.
 
I dunno, I just think running a tire at a a low 12 psi to begin with under a 3400 pound stock car upwards of 200 mph with it tilted at an angle would cause any tire to fail prematurely. :shrug:
 
bumpzter said:
The problem I have with boB's comments is that in his view Goodyear has smart engineers, but race teams have over aggressive crew chiefs. As a matter of fact, race teams have smart engineers as well. Plenty of them. It's a two way street. Sure, cars should be set up not to destroy tires, but tires should also be made not to disintegrate in a few laps.

Gioodyear got out of F1 and Indy cars because they could not compete with the competition. The same would happen in NASCAR.
Click to expand...


boB got it right. The tire company could make the best tires and some over zealous crew chief will still push the envelope.

Any given race team has qualified in house engineers that might might issue warnings on tire pressures and camber, but the final decision rests with the crew chief.

This comment is true, "cars should be set up not to destroy tires but tires should be made not to disintegrate in a few laps", and this is sound theory, but I doubt seriously Good Year designs thier tires to disintegrate in a few laps.
Every crew chief is looking for the advantage, pushing the envelope with certifiable information and first hand knowledge of how a tire might react, that same crew chief will still push tolerances to the limit. It is known as human nature.

About the comment re: Good Year and NASCAR, if it were not for the tire rule impletmented by NASCAR, my money would be on the fact HOOSIER was then and would continue today as the best tire in NASCAR.

For a small, design specialty company, HOOSIER was well on the way to kicking Good Year's multi-million dollar engineering racing design department to hell and back.
HOOSIER TIRE COMPANY came a long way in a short time to show the racing communnity they were as good and in the minds of many, a better product.

Good Year has a lot to answer for as the sole provider of tires for the NEXTEL NASCAR Racing Series. Hoosier, through circumstances, got screwed and in the so-called tire war between Hoosier and Good Year, this was one time the best team did not win.
 
bumpster,

The biggest reason for the tire problems is not the tire. The teams are using the sidewalls of the tires as the suspension system for the entire car.

Goodyear left other types of racing not because they were unable to compete in that market, but because of very limited production runs, the value received vs. the outlay necessary to service them left something called red ink on the bottom line.

I realize that you, for whatever reason, seem to harbor an intense dislike for Goodyear, but the fact is that certain NASCAR teams, be it their crewchiefs, their engineers, or whomever, choose to ignore the design limits of the product they're using and then they, along with a certain segment of misinformed fans, whine, cry and blame the manufacturer when that product fails.

One word for that: STUPID!!
 
boB said:
I realize that you, for whatever reason, seem to harbor an intense dislike for Goodyear
Click to expand...
The above statement is absolutely not true. With the exception of their race programs. They can stay in NASCAR because they are a major sponsor. I'm certain of that.

I guess we just have to agree to disagee on this issue, boB. But that's OK. Your posts are always the first I read. They're tops.
 
If the problem was truly a "tire" problem, there would be far greater failures across the board of teams. However the problems are always confined to a very few teams and the rest of the field races problem free for the event.

Remember, Goodyear had a tire a couple seasons ago that didn't wear out even with the way certain teams abuse them but the "Competitors" screamed for a softer tire to put the racing back in the hands of the teams. They got it. LOL
 
bumpzter,

The best part of this forum is the fact that we can agree to disagree; for the most part we can carry on discussions without the name calling and insults that seem to be the norm at so many other message boards.

Pretty nice, isn't it?

Thanks for the compliments as well.
Appreciate it.
boB
 
I have a feeling that "pushing the envelope" is not much of an option any more. So many don't know cant from camber, and a tire is just a tire. Some may see this decision as just more of NASCAR control, but in fact, it is really another call for safety!
Who among us has suffered a blowout at highway speed? I have, and it was a terrifying experience.
 
10 degrees of camber is outrageous, wether it be positive or negative. If I setup a custumors car with even 3 or 4 degrees of positive or negative camber, they would take one look at it and say it's not safe to drive. just to try and show just how outrageous that much camber is, even though you don't see it on TV. I agree with Goodyear that even with banked straightaways they are still basicially still running the tires on the sidewall.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom