Paying their dues?

KTMLew01

KTMLew01

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Could the board experts please explain the above phrase. I've seen it mentioned a number of times that some guys haven't "paid their dues" and don't deserve a Cup ride. Could someone...anyone...please lay out THE approved ladder for a Cup/Infinity/Truck seat?

Example: 12 year old kid finds a pile of pipe and builds his own sprint car, using an old car battery and jumper cables as a welder. Grandpa gives him...oh wait...can't do that....ummm...SELLS HIM the motor off his rototiller. The kid <being a mechanical genius...of course> "borrows" his sisters blow-dryer and retro-fits it to tiller motor to make it a sort of supercharger <hidden of course>. "Finds" tires, fuel cell, belts, seat, wiring, etc by scrounging through local deserted junk yard. Pulls car to track on Flex-y-flyer wagon behind bicycle. Talks a local driver into driving car and of course wins championship. Scroll forward a few years and is tall enough to see over steering wheel so takes over drivers seat. Wins every race entered by multiple laps. Big tracks, small tracks, wing/no wing, dirt/pavement. Just superhuman. All with ZERO sponsorship. No family support.

THAT seems to be the criteria. But maybe I just don't understand.
 
KTMLew01 said:
Could the board experts please explain the above phrase. I've seen it mentioned a number of times that some guys haven't "paid their dues" and don't deserve a Cup ride. Could someone...anyone...please lay out THE approved ladder for a Cup/Infinity/Truck seat?

Example: 12 year old kid finds a pile of pipe and builds his own sprint car, using an old car battery and jumper cables as a welder. Grandpa gives him...oh wait...can't do that....ummm...SELLS HIM the motor off his rototiller. The kid <being a mechanical genius...of course> "borrows" his sisters blow-dryer and retro-fits it to tiller motor to make it a sort of supercharger <hidden of course>. "Finds" tires, fuel cell, belts, seat, wiring, etc by scrounging through local deserted junk yard. Pulls car to track on Flex-y-flyer wagon behind bicycle. Talks a local driver into driving car and of course wins championship. Scroll forward a few years and is tall enough to see over steering wheel so takes over drivers seat. Wins every race entered by multiple laps. Big tracks, small tracks, wing/no wing, dirt/pavement. Just superhuman. All with ZERO sponsorship. No family support.

THAT seems to be the criteria. But maybe I just don't understand.
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Wait until the authority on everything sees you are back! This should be good!!

Paying your dues is an antiquated term and I think the last Nascar drivers that could be included in the dues paying category were Jeff Burton and Bobby Labonte. The whole paying your dues concept came to the forefront when Jeff Gordon came on the scene as some people felt he should have driven for some crap team for a few years before earning his ride at HMS. People seem to forget that HMS was not all that prior to Jeff Gordon coming on board and in reality Jeff put HMS on the map as opposed to the other way around.

No one pays dues anymore as if you can attract sponsorship there is a team that will employ you.
 
Larson did not even participate in a full season of a "Grand National Series" of NASCAR until his first and only season in Xfinity in '13.

All depends on the owner and what they want IMHO. Joey Logano had money, but had to prove he was worthy of staying in Cup. If not for Penske, Logano would have been in "Should have, would have" category. Penske had faith in Logano and Brad Keselowski helped Joey grow, very quickly I may add, to be a championship winning caliber driver.

Paying dues is still a thing, but racing requires money. If you do not have money, you really cannot compete. Look at Bubba Wallace, as talented as he is or maybe, he's having to fight race to race for sponsorship. Paying dues is being able to front the money with sponsors to give him or her a ride, no money to pay? You really cannot pay dues, its a double edged sword.
 
NASCAR has always had an element of generational drivers in it, just how it goes. I think a lot of the backlash comes from how clearly entitled and spoiled drivers like Austin and Ty Dillon are. These guys have literally been handed rides just because their grandpa owns the team but they aren't humble about it. I remember when Ty and Harvick had their run in during a truck race and Ty couldn't run to his grandpa quick enough. Austin has that awful cowboy hat, berates his team on the radio, and thinks he's a top tier driver. Meanwhile in the last three years RCR has one win on a tire gamble.

Dale Jr, Dale Jarett, etc are legacy drivers but seem grounded and humble. Chase seems to have a pretty good demeanor as well I think the hatred of Austin Dillon makes the anger towards generational drivers overblown. I think Cole Custer is going to be pretty unpopular, another guy who clearly only has a ride because of his family connecitons at SHR and he looks like a snitch.
 
I don't care how they get to the top. If they can drive, they will stay. If they can't, they won't. Where's Steven Wallace and John Wes Townley right now? Justin Labonte? Steadman Marlin?

Some of you act like the Dillons, Logano, Menard, etc don't deserve it. That's laughable. Their roads might have been easier than many, but you can't fault them for that.
 
2 Sweet said:
I don't care how they get to the top. If they can drive, they will stay. If they can't, they won't. Where's Steven Wallace and John Wes Townley right now? Justin Labonte? Steadman Marlin?

Some of you act like the Dillons, Logano, Menard, etc don't deserve it. That's laughable. Their roads might have been easier than many, but you can't fault them for that.
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Dillon doesn't deserve an RCR rider. Neither does Menard. That's a top tier team that doesn't win races because they are floating bad drivers with family connections.
 
Cholo said:
Dillon doesn't deserve an RCR rider. Neither does Menard. That's a top tier team that doesn't win races because they are floating bad drivers with family connections.
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The only reason I like Menard is because he doesn't put up with Austin's bull****.
 
2 Sweet said:
Lew is back from the dead! It's a miracle!
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News+Flasher+back+from+dead.jpg
 
There are so many angles and backgrounds where drivers come from.
I like seeing this progression of an up and comer:

All starts with parents who have the resources and the love of the sport.
Couple years of : Karts/Legends- 20 hours a week in shop and setup
5 years : Dirt or asphalt in top 3 or Champion- 20 hours a week in shop and set up
1 to 2 years in Trucks or Xfinity / Champion - 15 hours a week in shop and set up
Then to Cup opportunities.

At some point there needs to be that magic moment of discovery at a track.
IE: Kyle Busch seeing Erik Jones at the Snowball.

I realize there may be some really good talent in average equipment.
Those are difficult to find and test.

Personally - I really like the system Indycar has in place with the Road to Indy program.
 
Cholo said:
Dillon doesn't deserve an RCR rider. Neither does Menard. That's a top tier team that doesn't win races because they are floating bad drivers with family connections.
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How so?

If Austin Dillon wasn't Richard Childress' grandson, people would talk about how he was a great short track racer. But because he's a "Cup kid", he hasn't "earned his dues". :rolleyes:

Same story goes for Paul Menard, for that matter.
 
Hotrod said:
At some point there needs to be that magic moment of discovery at a track.
IE: Kyle Busch seeing Erik Jones at the Snowball.
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Kyle Busch is one of the best things to happen to racing. When he's not racing in NASCAR, he's at the short tracks supporting other drivers and even helping to recruit them to his SLM program and, from there, into the TRD development program.

Fans say all the time they'd like to see things like this, yet they boo Kyle Busch every Sunday.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
How so?

If Austin Dillon wasn't Richard Childress' grandson, people would talk about how he was a great short track racer. But because he's a "Cup kid", he hasn't "earned his dues". :rolleyes:

Same story goes for Paul Menard, for that matter.
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If Dillon wasn't Childress' grandson he wouldn't have a top ride. 129 cup starts and zero wins.
 
Cholo said:
If Dillon wasn't Childress' grandson he wouldn't have a top ride. 129 cup starts and zero wins.
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Yet Austin Dillon went up through the ranks, raced in Late Models (dirt and asphalt), gained experience, raced in K&N, raced in Trucks, raced in XFINITY and had to cut his teeth. And he's the most hated driver on here, next to Kyle Busch and Erik Jones (who both also cut their teeth on short tracks).

Fans are so confusing.

Richard Childress didn't just put Austin in a Cup car because he's his grandson. He made Austin, and Ty, go through the ranks.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Kyle Busch is one of the best things to happen to racing. When he's not racing in NASCAR, he's at the short tracks supporting other drivers and even helping to recruit them to his SLM program and, from there, into the TRD development program.

Fans say all the time they'd like to see things like this, yet they boo Kyle Busch every Sunday.
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Do you know if the big Nascar teams have scouts employed like they do in stick and ball sports?
If not, that maybe an opportunity for a guy like you going to all the short tracks and feeding them
prospect info. Can't have enough eyes and ears out in the bullring trenches.
 
Can anyone 'splain to me why Erik Jones is disliked? It is obvious why many dislike Kyle Busch and I assume people dislike Aussie due to the fact that he probably would not have a cup ride if not for papaw.
 
Hotrod said:
Do you know if the big Nascar teams have scouts employed like they do in stick and ball sports?
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They do. Toyota Racing Development excels at this. Ganassi has talent scouts. KBM has a Super Late Model team, JR Motorsports has a few Late Model Stock Car teams. BTW, Karsyn Elledge, Dale Sr's granddaughter, ran a Limited Late Model race last year for JR Motorsports. TRD also works with David Gilliland's Super Late Model team.

There are also a few websites that do a good job. If you want to keep up with what's happening in short track racing, Speed51 really is a good resource when it comes to short track coverage nationwide. I'm the managing editor of a short track site called Race22.com, but I've been so focused on other things that I haven't been able to do much with it in the past few weeks -- it requires way more time and money than I presently have.
 
KTMLew01 said:
Could the board experts please explain the above phrase. I've seen it mentioned a number of times that some guys haven't "paid their dues" and don't deserve a Cup ride. Could someone...anyone...please lay out THE approved ladder for a Cup/Infinity/Truck seat?

Example: 12 year old kid finds a pile of pipe and builds his own sprint car, using an old car battery and jumper cables as a welder. Grandpa gives him...oh wait...can't do that....ummm...SELLS HIM the motor off his rototiller. The kid <being a mechanical genius...of course> "borrows" his sisters blow-dryer and retro-fits it to tiller motor to make it a sort of supercharger <hidden of course>. "Finds" tires, fuel cell, belts, seat, wiring, etc by scrounging through local deserted junk yard. Pulls car to track on Flex-y-flyer wagon behind bicycle. Talks a local driver into driving car and of course wins championship. Scroll forward a few years and is tall enough to see over steering wheel so takes over drivers seat. Wins every race entered by multiple laps. Big tracks, small tracks, wing/no wing, dirt/pavement. Just superhuman. All with ZERO sponsorship. No family support.

THAT seems to be the criteria. But maybe I just don't understand.
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This post is hilarious and true at the same time.
 
When I first started to watch Cup, paying your dues meant driving for an underfunded team (back markers) until one of the top team owners took notice. The top drivers were older and single car teams were the norm. Young drivers wrecked or broke the cars which was a financial risk for team owners. Jeff Gordon was the first driver that I recall to come up from the feeder series and get a quality ride.
 
For those bashing the Dillon boys. If YOU had a successful business would you try to get your grandsons to work for said business? Assuming they had interest. Or would you freeze out all family. How is racing anything but a business?
 
Zerkfitting said:
When I first started to watch Cup, paying your dues meant driving for an underfunded team (back markers) until one of the top team owners took notice. The top drivers were older and single car teams were the norm. Young drivers wrecked or broke the cars which was a financial risk for team owners. Jeff Gordon was the first driver that I recall to come up from the feeder series and get a quality ride.
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Excellent. Problem is there aren't many low buck teams left. Racing has gotten sooooooooooooo expensive there are ZERO low-dollar teams in MY dollar range.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
They do. Toyota Racing Development excels at this. Ganassi has talent scouts. KBM has a Super Late Model team, JR Motorsports has a few Late Model Stock Car teams. BTW, Karsyn Elledge, Dale Sr's granddaughter, ran a Limited Late Model race last year for JR Motorsports. TRD also works with David Gilliland's Super Late Model team.

There are also a few websites that do a good job. If you want to keep up with what's happening in short track racing, Speed51 really is a good resource when it comes to short track coverage nationwide. I'm the managing editor of a short track site called Race22.com, but I've been so focused on other things that I haven't been able to do much with it in the past few weeks -- it requires way more time and money than I presently have.
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Wow - Karsyn in a late model, crazy! Dang- time flies. Interesting info. Thanks.
 
Hotrod said:
Wow - Karsyn in a late model, crazy! Dang- time flies. Interesting info. Thanks.
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http://www.stscene.com/2016/06/02/karsyn-elledge-making-name/

Jared Irvan is also in a Super Late Model. Harrison Burton is destined for the big leagues. I'm a pretty big supporter of Kate Dallenbach as well. Brandon Setzer runs Super Late Models. Ty Gibbs and Carson Kvapil are running Late Model Stocks. I'm sure I've missed some others.....
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Yet Austin Dillon went up through the ranks, raced in Late Models (dirt and asphalt), gained experience, raced in K&N, raced in Trucks, raced in XFINITY and had to cut his teeth. And he's the most hated driver on here, next to Kyle Busch and Erik Jones (who both also cut their teeth on short tracks).

Fans are so confusing.

Richard Childress didn't just put Austin in a Cup car because he's his grandson. He made Austin, and Ty, go through the ranks.
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You said exactly what I was going to say.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
How so?

If Austin Dillon wasn't Richard Childress' grandson, people would talk about how he was a great short track racer. But because he's a "Cup kid", he hasn't "earned his dues". :rolleyes:

Same story goes for Paul Menard, for that matter.
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Some truth in that, but he probably wouldn't be driving a cup car to today without the security of Pa Pa.
 
Greg said:
Some truth in that, but he probably wouldn't be driving a cup car to today without the security of Pa Pa.
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Chase Elliott probably wouldn't be driving a Cup car today if he wasn't Bill Elliott's son. :idunno:

That's just part of how it goes in the sport. Ironically, Chase Elliott is far and away the most popular driver in NASCAR, or will be for sure when Dale Jr retires.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Chase Elliott probably wouldn't be driving a Cup car today if he wasn't Bill Elliott's son. :idunno:

That's just part of how it goes in the sport. Ironically, Chase Elliott is far and away the most popular driver in NASCAR, or will be for sure when Dale Jr retires.
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I think it's about how the drivers present themselves. Chase has that good ol' country boy ol' shucks image. Austin Dillon doesn't hide the fact that he comes from money & that comes off as arrogant or entitled.
 
I dont blame RCR for putting his grandsons into racing, or any other similar cases.
But Nascar could do more to connect with the grass roots. The simple fact remains that Nascar is much futher removed from the common man than ever.
In the 70s the average Joe actually knew more people that actually raced. Or a gas station that pushed the race car out in the morning so they change the publics oil and tires.

Richard Petty Lee Pettys son, I get that it has always been a tight loop with not enough opportunities for outsiders.
And a 12 or 14 year old racing is more about the parents paying the dues and about hiring driving coaches etc. I dont blame them for taking advantage of their rescources, who wouldn't?
But still the same I do find the old paths more entertaining and more interesting.
The kid is a more of a collective result, still discovering life, with all of the innocence that good people love.

But dont expect me to be to excited over mom and pops dream. It aint the same as young adult trying to cut it more on his own merits. Busting his ass to pay the tire bill. And there should be some late model races that have enough shine for him to show his stuff to the king makers.

The old Busch Grand National series was a good example. It was grass roots with drivers that raced at the local tracks. It was just something that I could feel and wrap my mind around.
It still happens, Eric Jones caught Kyle Buschs eye at the snowball derby. Brad K drove his ass off in a one off deal, and caught the eye of Dale Earnhardt Jr

I get the fact that Austin Dillion has turned into a very good respectable driver. He looks on track to be a Monster Cup Winner, just a matter of time. I think he only become a stronger title contender with time.

Just dont expect me to believe he has deal with the stress that Brad K ever had to face. There wasn't the same kind of safety net, the resources (money) was not as deep.
Maybe I take it to personally but a driver that never had to moon light to race isnt someone that could ever relate to me. Might as well be an Alien to my world.

He naturally had to work for it to develop the skills, but I still cant bullsheit myself into being as inspired by their story. They never lived in a world were you worried about just having gas money, or even the paying the Saturday night entry fee.

That damn Stetson might well be a piece of plastic, it woud be no less functional, or representative.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Chase Elliott probably wouldn't be driving a Cup car today if he wasn't Bill Elliott's son. :idunno:

That's just part of how it goes in the sport. Ironically, Chase Elliott is far and away the most popular driver in NASCAR, or will be for sure when Dale Jr retires.
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Most popular driver not a bigee imo, just win.
 
Firesuit- $1000
Helmet- $2000
Car- $1m
Water Bottle- $2
Paying your dues- Priceless

Oh wait.. no.. it's $1'003'002

Having a good driver who attracts sponsors- PRICELESS!


(Prices completely fabricated.. except the water bottle.. $2 for water?! Ffs) :lol2:
 
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