Racing back to the Yellow eliminated?

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Happy29

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Racing back to the caution flag, long one of NASCAR's most controversial procedures, could be eliminated as early as Sunday's MBNA America 400 at Dover, Del., according to sources. New NASCAR Chairman Brian France said Tuesday there would be announcements later this week that required "tough decisions," but he would not elaborate. But other NASCAR sources said both France and the sanctioning body's president, Mike Helton, favor banning "racing back to yellow," unless their race-official lieutenants can present satisfactory arguments to the contrary
 
yea another black and white call for nascar, gonna belike the yelloe line rule, better be racing back to the line within 50 laps or something like that
 
Some Updates from Jayski.com:

UPDATE: NASCAR is seriously considering revising its long-standing policy of allowing drivers to race back to the yellow flag. Discussions about changing the rule, which gives competitors a chance to earn laps back on the leader, are taking place at the highest levels of NASCAR's management team. Racing back to the yellow is considered dangerous because many times the race leaders and those attempting to get a lap back must pick their way through an accident site. The current yellow flag rule also inhibits response time by emergency crews, who must wait until the field gathers up behind the pace car.(Daytona Beach News Journal)
AND New NASCAR Chairman Brian France, who took over from his father, Bill France Jr., on Monday, is said to be leaning heavily, along with Helton, toward banning the practice. Unless lieutenants who directly conduct the races can give the two top executives sufficient rationales for status quo, the bedlam's days are numbered. Whether an announcement comes before the Dover races, or is deferred, may depend on whether the younger France, 41, is worried about being perceived as changing too much, too fast.(Orlando Sentinel)(9-16-2003)
 
I hope they do ban it, but want them to take a little time to make sure that they have a plan figured out and ready to run when they do.
 
Originally posted by Oldgoat@Sep 18 2003, 03:20 PM
I hope they do ban it, but want them to take a little time to make sure that they have a plan figured out and ready to run when they do.
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Too late, they have banned it.
 
NASCAR bans racing back to caution flag
Rule changes go into effect this weekend
From Press Release September 18, 2003
3:01 PM EDT (1901 GMT)




DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. -- Rule procedure revisions that eliminate racing back to the yellow (caution) flag and modify pit road entry for the NASCAR Winston Cup Series, NASCAR Busch Series and NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series will go into effect beginning this weekend, NASCAR officials announced Thursday.

The revisions will be in place for the NASCAR Winston Cup Series and NASCAR Busch Series races at Dover International Speedway and for the NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series event at California Speedway, all of which are being held this weekend.

"We have monitored and continually discussed internally the situation regarding racing back to the yellow throughout the season, and have reached the conclusion that it is time for us to take this step," NASCAR President Mike Helton said.

"We will eliminate the practice completely and no longer depend on the gentlemen's agreement by the drivers in an effort to further ensure the safety of the competitors."

The new rule will not permit any passing once the caution flag is displayed. Other aspects of this procedure revision as well as the pit road entry modifications will be outlined to the NASCAR Winston Cup and NASCAR Busch Series competitors at a combined meeting scheduled for 10:30 a.m. ET Saturday in the garage area at Dover International Speedway.

The Craftsman Truck Series will have the revisions outlined in their scheduled driver/crew chief meeting scheduled for 10:45 a.m. PT Saturday.

NASCAR officials' decisions regarding these new procedures will not be subject to review or appeal.

"We needed to find a better way to do it rather than racing back to the yellow, and the new procedures we are putting in place are the first step in the process," Helton said. "We will monitor and evaluate the new procedures and fine-tune them if needed as we move forward."
 
No passin under yellow, I take it that will includ the pits? If so thats the best part of the rule, much needed.
 
Originally posted by toddgee24@Sep 18 2003, 03:55 PM
does this include lapped cars?
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Im sure it does, looks like you stay on the lead lap now or your chances of winning are over.
 
Originally posted by RobbyG Fan+Sep 18 2003, 02:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RobbyG Fan @ Sep 18 2003, 02:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--toddgee24@Sep 18 2003, 03:55 PM
does this include lapped cars?
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Im sure it does, looks like you stay on the lead lap now or your chances of winning are over. [/b][/quote]
Now you have to race your way back on the lead lap like it should be.
 
All i can say it is about time,this has taken way too long to come about IMO. It will put more pressure on the drivers to stay on the lead lap, but oh well, if you can't keep up the pace you shouldn't be out there anyway.
 
Originally posted by Mopardh9@Sep 18 2003, 03:50 PM
It will put more pressure on the drivers to stay on the lead lap, but oh well, if you can't keep up the pace you shouldn't be out there anyway.
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We may see more bumping from the leader trying to get by the slower cars if they don't give up as easily, knowing they can't get a lap back.
 
It will be interesting to see how this affects the racing....if there will be more heated tempers or if some of the teams that can't keep up the pace resort to desperate measures( maybe finding that "competitive edge"). But to be serious for a moment it was inevitable that a serious or fatal accident would have resulted if racing continued back to the yellow. I commend nascar for doing this. It sure will be interesting at the short tracks!
 
I wonder if this will change the pit strategys as well. under yellow the pit crew will have no real cause to be in a hurry other than having thier car back out before a restart. :idunno:
 
I haven't read the rule. But I would say that Nascar means you can't pass under yellow on the track. But if you pit under yellow in eighth place and get out in third that may be the only way you can pass under caution. But that is just my opinion. :D
 
the only problem i see with this is the fact that lapped cars will be a major problem, since they will be racing the leaders hard at all times, instead of just falling back and waiting for the yellow, and I think they need to stop counting caution laps if they do this, so that if a race ends under yellow there will actually be a race, instead of just finding out who lead the last lap.
 
Originally posted by Roush_Racer@Sep 18 2003, 05:56 PM
and I think they need to stop counting caution laps if they do this
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I think Bristol would become a 7 hour race if they stopped counting caution laps.
 
This is going to make qualifying good at the smaller tracks very important.
 
Originally posted by park30fan@Sep 18 2003, 08:58 PM
This is going to make qualifying good at the smaller tracks very important.
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Its going to make qualifying more important in general.

But in conjunction with this rule, I believe Nascar should institute a green white checkers finish like the Trucks do.
 
Originally posted by Gollum@Sep 18 2003, 08:38 PM
I haven't read the rule. But I would say that Nascar means you can't pass under yellow on the track. But if you pit under yellow in eighth place and get out in third that may be the only way you can pass under caution. But that is just my opinion. :D
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Passin in the pits is the pits and need to be done on the track. Only way I would take passin in the pits is when every car does excatly the same thing. Four tires, 2 cans of gas, clean windshield, track bar adjust,driver drink. If not that way then all hold position till green,or till performace is allowed again.
 
Originally posted by EJL+Sep 19 2003, 12:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (EJL @ Sep 19 2003, 12:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Gollum@Sep 18 2003, 08:38 PM
I haven't read the rule. But I would say that Nascar means you can't pass under yellow on the track. But if you pit under yellow in eighth place and get out in third that may be the only way you can pass under caution. But that is just my opinion. :D
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Passin in the pits is the pits and need to be done on the track. Only way I would take passin in the pits is when every car does excatly the same thing. Four tires, 2 cans of gas, clean windshield, track bar adjust,driver drink. If not that way then all hold position till green,or till performace is allowed again. [/b][/quote]
History repeats itself, and not only that but it seems to do the same thing all over again, like de ja vu. This is how races were run since the inception of NASCAR .

No passing under a yellow should mean just that. When the yellow flag comes out, the cars hold thier position. Passing in the pits through the use of different strategies and service is normal racing and should be allowable.

It won't make any difference to the lapped cars as they don't pit at the same time as lead lap cars.

I'm not sure why there is so much despair among some fans who concern themselves on the issue of cars being lapped. Races have been won and /or good finishes produced by coming from several laps down. One of the more recent in memory (which gets shorter every day) was Robby Gordon. It is possible and it can be done. It also makes racing more fun to watch. A real race driver does NOT give up when lapped.

As for lapped cars racing the leaders hard, the first one or two lapped cars will, that is how the game is supposed to be played. When it gets to be crunch time, the lapped cars should give way to the leaders and let them settle it. If a lapped car gets too frisky holding up the leaders, it might become necessary to have to deal with the situation in a direct manner. This is good because things get settled among the drivers, on the track, and not waiting for some official from NASCAR to make a judgement call.

For those who might be interested, this is something that really formulated through the pass Jeff Gordon made on Matt Kenseth when Kenseth slowed to let Kurt Busch get a lap back earlier in the year. The Robby Gordon incident at Sonoma was not the same type of situation. :D
 
"Passing in the pits through the use of different strategies and service is normal racing and should be allowable".
Whizzer, then racin back to the flag is normal racin also.
 
Originally posted by EJL@Sep 19 2003, 01:35 PM
"Passing in the pits through the use of different strategies and service is normal racing and should be allowable".
Whizzer, then racin back to the flag is normal racin also.
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Eliminating passing in the pits through one team taking two tires versus another team taking four is an undeserved penalty from NASCAR. This activity does not create a dangerous situation like racing back to the yellow at high speed as has been seen in several instances in recent months. Racing onto pit road and the use of modern technology, oh hell, a radar gun isn't modern technology, will help control those "racing" onto pit road.

Can't agree witcha here ELJ. There is a major difference between racing to the caution flag and getting laps back than there is in competition and strategy of taking more or less tires or gas than a competitor. BUT, that is just my opinion and I appreciate yours, even if it is wrong. :salute:
 
Originally posted by Whizzer+Sep 19 2003, 10:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Whizzer @ Sep 19 2003, 10:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--EJL@Sep 19 2003, 01:35 PM
"Passing in the pits through the use of different strategies and service is normal racing and should be allowable".
Whizzer, then racin back to the flag is normal racin also.
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Eliminating passing in the pits through one team taking two tires versus another team taking four is an undeserved penalty from NASCAR. This activity does not create a dangerous situation like racing back to the yellow at high speed as has been seen in several instances in recent months. Racing onto pit road and the use of modern technology, oh hell, a radar gun isn't modern technology, will help control those "racing" onto pit road.

Can't agree witcha here ELJ. There is a major difference between racing to the caution flag and getting laps back than there is in competition and strategy of taking more or less tires or gas than a competitor. BUT, that is just my opinion and I appreciate yours, even if it is wrong. :salute: [/b][/quote]
I would go along with you if the cars could race. Today the cars are so regulated that they can't pass. There have been more position changes thru caution flag pit stops and out breaking competition in turns, than there has been thru racin. Till changes are made so a builder can build performace race car I'm in favor of holding position on caution till green flag.
 
Gonna be interesting to see how this deal is presented.

No passing once the yellow comes out........does that mean revert to last lap for positions or freeze the field at the moment the caution flies.....either way how many races til some drivers fans or detractors scream favoritism........maybe one third of a race???

Pit road entry rules could mean almost anything.....can't wait to hear this one.

As for "passing" on pit road - what if ya don't pit? Didn't ya just pass all the cars that did? If no position changes that means the driver who banged the wall and damaged his car but managed to hang on to sixth place can come in, fix the car, have a smoke, eat an ice cream, and still be sixth............

And I do believe we will see some very rough deals when a driver is about to go a lap down. Especially if you have a situation where a fast car has gotten himself in front of the leader.......ya know tail end of lead lap deal.......he can't make a deal so he's gotta keep the leader behind him no other way........

On the surface I have no problem with no racing back to the flag.....I have big time problems with the drivers who have made the ruling necessary. It is the attitude and philosophy of those drivers which will create problems under the new system just as surely, soon as they figure out how to work the edge during the right circumstance. At some point in time common sense on the drivers part has to take over, otherwise we'l just see rule after rule after rule trying to enforce actions which should be in place through the professionalism of the drivers themselves................
 
In the Syvania 300, there was only ONE....count em ONE....actual on track PASS for the lead (Dale Jr).

All other lead changes were the result of folks going in or out of the pits.

As HS sez......."I have big time problems with the drivers who have made the ruling necessary."

No kidding, tho I wonder if the drivers themselves can actually be faulted without also faulting the entire NASCAR organization from the top brass to the team owners, sponsors, AND fans.

Owners expect thier drivers to do all within the rules to win. Sponsors want thier cars on tv, and fans? Well, let's just say that as a general rule fans have a tendency to look the other way when it's thier driver that is getting the break.
 
Maybe what they will do is freeze the field at the caution until they cross the line. then for pit stops and cars staying out, the current rules would apply.
 
Well what better way to get rid of controversy than get rid of it all together
 
cant you guys wait to have a finish like the indy 500 a couple years ago with Paul Tracy?
 
Well now that it was announced I am glad that they finally did. I'm not sure that I like the part about the top car getting a lap back automatically, but guess that it is worth a try. The pit rule change will have to play out I guess, but I would agree that there is a good chance for abuse. At least they are trying to do something.
 
I like the fact that it's a work in progress and that NASCAR will tweak the rule if necessary.

I don't like the fact that this rule is necessary, but I'm glad that NASCAR stepped in when it was shown to be needed because the drivers were being horse's butts on the track.

It seemed to work well in the BGN race. I'm with the TV "common taters", though --- what happens at 'Dega when they are 3 wide, 10 rows deep when the flag comes out?
 
I'm against anything that gives NASCAR any more control over who wins or loses. That being said, they had to do something as it was getting very dangereous the way some people have been driving back to the yellow.
 
Hardscrambled-------
As for "passing" on pit road - what if ya don't pit? Didn't ya just pass all the cars that did

No , it would be hold your position on caution till green
 
Originally posted by EJL@Sep 21 2003, 01:24 PM
Hardscrambled-------
As for "passing" on pit road - what if ya don't pit? Didn't ya just pass all the cars that did

No , it would be hold your position on caution till green
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Unless I misunderstand, it is your contention the no passing rule will permit a car to come into the pits in fourth or fifth place, take on four tires, fill the tank, remove the tearoff, put in some wedge, take out a spring rubber and change the battery, wind up theoretically being one lap down for taking so long in the pits, but getting placed back in the position they were in when the caution flew??

I don't think so.
 
From what I've seen in three races now, they might as well go to single file restarts.

The leaders can race the leaders, and the lappers can race the lappers.
 
I dont like this rule after seeing it today. Sure, its all in good meaning, but it needs major tweaking. Id like to see two things though:

1) Like TRL said, how will this work at Daytona?

2) When a caution flies and there is a battle for the lead with a few laps remaining, Nascar can determine who will be the winner by their timing of the caution flag. I dont like that. I would like to see a green, white, checkers finish added with this new rule.
 
Originally posted by Whizzer+Sep 21 2003, 01:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Whizzer @ Sep 21 2003, 01:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--EJL@Sep 21 2003, 01:24 PM
Hardscrambled-------
As for "passing" on pit road - what if ya don't pit? Didn't ya just pass all the cars that did

No , it would be hold your position on caution till green
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Unless I misunderstand, it is your contention the no passing rule will permit a car to come into the pits in fourth or fifth place, take on four tires, fill the tank, remove the tearoff, put in some wedge, take out a spring rubber and change the battery, wind up theoretically being one lap down for taking so long in the pits, but getting placed back in the position they were in when the caution flew??

I don't think so. [/b][/quote]
I know I'm probably debating something that will never happen, it don't fit nascar's show.

No wizzard that not my intent. No PASSIN under yellow. Where the car is when caution comes out is where it will start when green resumes. How many times today did cars gain/lose position durning caution. It will be worse at Dega and Daytona. All I want is position changes made under race condition. What you want is no different than a car staying out to lead a lap for points durning caution. It's BS.
 
Aren't they going an extra lap before the pits are open and then the cars can pit for what they want or skip it and gain track position? At least that is what I thought they were doing today. If it is I don't see anything wrong with it. The changes were being forced because the drivers weren't racing anymore. They would sometimes slow down so much as to risk another accident trying to let others get a lap back, and to me that isn't racing. I like this new approach better if for no other reason than to let the safety team get out sooner and making a clear rule for the drivers to follow.
 
While I do not agree with ever letting any car "get" a lap back, I do agree that in the name safety, something needed to be done so as to allow safety crews quicker access to the track.

Once again, nascar has figured out how to manipulate the outcome of thier show under the guise of safety. As such it is getting harder and harder for me to call it racing at all.
 
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