Red Bull Needs To Lay Down The Law, Say Rivals!

[KevinWI]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106389

Red Bull has no choice but to lay down the law to Sebastian Vettel over his team orders defiance at the Malaysian Grand Prix, say rival team bosses.

As the fallout from Vettel disregarding Red Bull's 'Multi 21' team order so he could beat Mark Webber continues, the squad issued a short statement on Monday night.

"It's worth noting that this is not an entirely new situation for us," said the statement

"Each incident has been managed in our own way behind closed doors and this will be no different."

As Red Bull prepares to deal with the situation internally, Lotus boss Eric Boullier and McLaren chief Martin Whitmarsh both think that the team's management must show its driver who is in charge.

Speaking about what he would do in the event of a driver breaking team orders, Whitmarsh said: "You don't have a choice, you have to sit down and deal with it.

"The driver is putting himself presumably in breach of contract and the team is bigger than any driver, isn't it? At any team.

"With a team having 600-700 people in it, you have really got to remind them. But drivers are competitive things, and it is a challenge."

Boullier said: "I don't know the whole story but it looks like with Red Bull in the past, Vettel already had some favours compared to Mark.

"It is not easy - but then you have to sit down with the people. The team was thinking about the constructors' championship, which is why they asked Webber and Vettel to keep their positions.

"So they need to have a proper discussion about the reasons behind it.

"Obviously I understand Seb wants to win, just like Mark, but perhaps already he is thinking about the championship - because he knows it is going to be tough.

"But as a team principal, except if you favour one driver clearly, you always need to do what is best for the team."

Whitmarsh said the handling of team orders in F1 was a difficult one, and he accepts that his outfit's decision not to favour either Lewis Hamilton or Fernando Alonso in 2007 cost it a world championship.

"It is very easy for me to get pious that we don't do it, and condemn others - but I don't want to do that," he said.

"Anyone can turn around to us and say in 2007 you threw away a championship: you didn't give team orders, you could have favoured either driver and they would have been world champion.

"That is the truth, but it doesn't feel right that we could have sat arbitrarily in an office in Woking and said: 'right, we are going to have Alonso as a world champion or Lewis as a world champion'.

"There is a part of me that says, 'bugger we should have had the championship', but overall I don't feel right about it.

"If I was in the same situation I hope I would do the same again."

 

[StandOnIt]

It is not a good situation when by rules and mismanagement, the competition is so bad in a racing series that you have situations like this happen. Could be eliminated by F1 officials making simple scoring changes. But that would probably really show how lopsided the competition is.

 

[Zerkfitting]

In American racing, team orders mean don't wreck your teammate.

 

[KevinWI]

It is not a good situation when by rules and mismanagement, the competition is so bad in a racing series that you have situations like this happen. Could be eliminated by F1 officials making simple scoring changes. But that would probably really show how lopsided the competition is.

I absolutely disagree. F1 is as exciting as it's been in years with all the changes they've made, including the KERS, DRS and tire rules.

With regards to the team orders situation, I think Webber got screwed.

 

[StandOnIt]

The tire rule is the only change that has helped the competition. The other stuff is mostly techno "gimmicks". Biggest plus in Formula 1 that I like is that they try to race in all types of weather. cut the downforce, the traction control, and legal the cars bodies and the motors up and you will have a race. Team orders won't matter then.

 

[KevinWI]

The tire rule is the only change that has helped the competition. The other stuff is mostly techno "gimmicks". Biggest plus in Formula 1 that I like is that they try to race in all types of weather. cut the downforce, the traction control, and legal the cars bodies and the motors up and you will have a race. Team orders won't matter then.

I do think F1 is silly by moving to smaller motors. It was't too far ago that they had V10's and V12's.

I don't think this is a true team orders situation anyway. It wasn't like Vettel was ordered not to pass Webber. Red Bull had an understanding that after a certain number of laps they would slow down and protect their tires and fuel. Vettel did it after passing Webber. Vettel screwed Webber. I think the problem is that Vettel and Christian Horner don't consider Webber a championship-calibur driver.

 

[KevinWI]

Webber considering leaving Red Bull. And Vettel apologizes.

Mark Webber Considering Red Bull Future After Sebastian Vettel Malaysian Grand Prix

(emphasis mine)

Mark Webber will use the next two weeks to take stock of his Formula One career as the rift with Red Bull team-mate Sebastian Vettel grew increasingly fractious yesterday.

Webber was left seething after Vettel deliberately ignored team orders to take the chequered flag at the Malaysian Grand Prix, and for the 27th time in his F1 career.

Leading at the fourth and final pit stop 13 laps from home, Webber and Vettel were under instruction to hold station to the line.

Reigning world champion Vettel, however, tarnished his reputation as he blatantly defied team principal Christian Horner and went on the attack.

The duo, who previously clashed in the 2010 Turkish Grand Prix when Vettel attacked Webber only to crash out of the race, went wheel to wheel before the 25-year-old German passed the Australian on lap 46.

In the green room, where the top three drivers cool down post race, on the podium and in the main press conference the tension between them was palpable.

Although Vettel apologised it cut no ice with Webber who, when asked whether the situation had made him consider his future with the team, and in F1 on the whole, Webber said: "My mind in the last 15 laps was thinking that many things, yes. Many, many things."

As to how Webber will respond to an order in the future should he be in a position where he is chasing Vettel for a win, he said: "That question is not going to be answered right now.

"Let's just say there were a lot of things going through my mind in the last 15 laps of the grand prix, lots of different reasons, not just from today but also from the past.

"We'll see what happens. We've got three weeks before the next race (in China on April 14).

"Right now it's very early days, it's very raw, but we need to work out how the team best goes forwards from here.

"That's obviously going to be discussed this week. I will be in Australia on my surfboard, the phone won't be engaged, so let's see what happens."

Vettel, who had initially shown no remorse for his selfish actions when interviewed on the podium, changed his tune several minutes later when he fielded questions in the press conference.

"I can see now he (Webber) is upset, but yeah, I at least want to be honest and stick to the truth and apologise," said Vettel.

"I know it doesn't really help his feelings right now, but I should have behaved better.

"As I've said, I didn't do it deliberately. I didn't realise I had made a mistake. It was only when I came back and saw the team's reaction I realised."

 

[StandOnIt]

any time you try to rig up a race, something is really wrong and it needs to be fixed. this happened last year to the same two people on the same team that is dominating F1. I have already stated my solutions to the problem, I believe the competition isn't there. Reminds me of years ago in Nascar when the leader would win by half a lap, but Nascar even then wasn't as bad as this stuff. I hope they do something to fix the problems, but I doubt it, the big guy Bernie, isn't all there upstairs.

 

[KevinWI]

any time you try to rig up a race, something is really wrong and it needs to be fixed. this happened last year to the same two people on the same team that is dominating F1. I have already stated my solutions to the problem, I believe the competition isn't there. Reminds me of years ago in Nascar when the leader would win by half a lap, but Nascar even then wasn't as bad as this stuff. I hope they do something to fix the problems, but I doubt it, the big guy Bernie, isn't all there upstairs.

This wasn't like that. Both drivers were ordered by the team principal to conserve tires and fuel near the end of the race. Webber slowed down. Vettel passed him, then slowed down. Webber wasn't ordered to give the lead to Vettel, unlike past F1 team orders incidents.

 

[StandOnIt]

Guess I see it different. I'm like why do you need team orders in the first place, telling a driver not to pass the other one is what I call rigging a race. Where the people in the pit are driving the car. So instead of the drivers racing, they are putting around the track holding their dominating position..which has happened because they have no competition to push them. Change the size of the fuel tanks, whatever, do something Bernie. For as little as they race, they are having way too many fuel mileage races.

 

[KevinWI]

Guess I see it different. I'm like why do you need team orders in the first place, telling a driver not to pass the other one is what I call rigging a race. Where the people in the pit are driving the car. So instead of the drivers racing, they are putting around the track holding their dominating position..which has happened because they have no competition to push them. Change the size of the fuel tanks, whatever, do something Bernie. For as little as they race, they are having way too many fuel mileage races.

I would agree with you if it was NASCAR or IndyCar, but F1 is the closest to a "team sport" in motorsport.

Webber got screwed. He followed the instructions of the guy who signs his paychecks and Vettel didn't and Vettel got the win.

Webber is a better man than I am. If I had followed team orders and Vettel passed me, I would have put the car back into fuel rich mode and burned the tires off chasing him down. Webber made it sound like the two drivers and Christian Horner had an understanding before the race that with 10-15 to go they would conserve their stuff and protect their positions in they were in the points.

 

[AndyMarquisLive]

I would agree with you if it was NASCAR or IndyCar, but F1 is the closest to a "team sport" in motorsport.

Webber got screwed. He followed the instructions of the guy who signs his paychecks and Vettel didn't and Vettel got the win.

Webber is a better man than I am. If I had followed team orders and Vettel passed me, I would have put the car back into fuel rich mode and burned the tires off chasing him down. Webber made it sound like the two drivers and Christian Horner had an understanding before the race that with 10-15 to go they would conserve their stuff and protect their positions in they were in the points.

The way Webber raced Vettel when Vettel was coming out of the pits wasn't exactly "teamwork" either.

 

[StandOnIt]

man I ain't trying to argue here. but I have a problem with technicians dictating the outcome of a race. When they say conserve tires and fuel..that means slow down. That is not good for any type of racing. And we will tell you what mixture to set the car at, and we can tell if you are listening by your tire temps which we monitor and we know how much fuel you have in your tank..and by the way your teammate isn't paying any attention to this...not to matter, we think he has the greatest chance of winning the whole deal anyway so it is time to eat a poop sandwich..take it for the TEAM rah rah sis coom bah.we have done it to you before and nobody did anything about it. That type of situation shouldn't happen if it could be avoided. The rulemakers should fix something to get the competition closer so you can't get out there and sit on a lead with two cars in the first place.

 

[KevinWI]

When they say conserve tires and fuel..that means slow down. That is not good for any type of racing.

Tire and fuel strategy isn't good for racing?

 

[Zerkfitting]

I don't follow F1 closely but don't F1 teams typically have a primary driver and secondary driver where the primary driver is expected to win and the secondary driver has a supporting role? Didn't Red Bull have a bit of controversy a few years ago when the secondary driver won the championship? F1 teams are a single team and not two teams, they even share a pit. I'm not a fan of that sort of team racing arrangement but that seems to be the way it is.

I can't imagine a secondary driver liking his role when his instinct is to win.

 

[StandOnIt]

Tire and fuel strategy isn't good for racing?

not really. If you are comparing it to a Nascar race, you will have some doing fuel saving, while others will be running hard trying to catch up and pass. In Formula 1 you have the whole field most of the time doing that..of course the announcers are trying to make something out of it..that is their job, but the reality is, the front runners are putting around the course.

 

[AndyMarquisLive]

man I ain't trying to argue here. but I have a problem with technicians dictating the outcome of a race. When they say conserve tires and fuel..that means slow down. That is not good for any type of racing. And we will tell you what mixture to set the car at, and we can tell if you are listening by your tire temps which we monitor and we know how much fuel you have in your tank..and by the way your teammate isn't paying any attention to this...not to matter, we think he has the greatest chance of winning the whole deal anyway so it is time to eat a poop sandwich..take it for the TEAM rah rah sis coom bah.we have done it to you before and nobody did anything about it. That type of situation shouldn't happen if it could be avoided. The rulemakers should fix something to get the competition closer so you can't get out there and sit on a lead with two cars in the first place.

There has to be a certain amount of fuel in the car at the end of the race and they try to run the bare minimum for weight. Makes no sense though if you're going to put in the bare minimum of fuel so you have a weight advantage for speed only to tell the driver to just ride around at half-throttle.

 

[StandOnIt]

haha not only that, but you try to keep everybody in their place..I can't buy that as racing. most can I guess

 

[Greg]

There has to be a certain amount of fuel in the car at the end of the race and they try to run the bare minimum for weight. Makes no sense though if you're going to put in the bare minimum of fuel so you have a weight advantage for speed only to tell the driver to just ride around at half-throttle.

They probably had enough fueled planned to run the race, then realized by telemetry they were off target midrace.
It is easy to doubt them, but the idea is to just finish with enough for the required post race inspection sample. What is Red Bull suppose to do upon discovery? get the approval of the purist? No it is mid race and you do what ya gotta do, as would any CC.

Unlike nascar it is one simple calculation (nascar usually refills every pit stop) and the lighter fuel load is a part of every lap. If you exhaust all but the post race sample you ineffect were lighter for the entire race.
The very degradable Pirelli soft tire is required use for at least one pit segment as well, so a lighter weight is probably even more important than most of other forms.

You also have to make eight engines last for the entire season (maybe different eight is my last recollection). Some purist may scoff at an eight engine limit, but probably for most teams it is a financial lifesaver. F1 has better car counts and racing than 10 or 15 years ago.
Soit makes sense to go easy on the equipment if you can still keep the lead. In F1 constructor points usually mean more, and they do sign the drivers check. A case were the contracted salarys are usually higher and the overall team budgets exceed any other racing in the world.
So an F1 driver is expected to follow orders to a higher degree.

I cant see how we can downgrade F1 racing for the above reasons, we have our own lucky dogs, wave arounds, and subjective cautions that inadvertently effect the outcome, purism is a great pursuit but elusive or most often impractical.

 

[StandOnIt]

Thanks for the info Greg, not trying to downgrade F1, I don't know much about F1 so I was asking why. It looked like race fixing to me, didn't know how important it is to save the equipment. Very different from what I am familiar with.

 

[SuperTex14]

Well put by both sides, and the never ending debate is only part of why we love racing (and all sports).

I would like to add that, at least F1 and Indycar's techno gimmicks are directly applicable to regular street vehicles. If your car had aero surfaces for more downforce in turns ("wings"), you would want them to adjust for more or less downforce/drag to meet the situation. KERS and traction control are already in use on non-racing vehicles, and information gathered under racing conditions will improve those features for normal driving use. Already familiar features like tire pressure monitors and adjustable ignition timing came as a result of racing innovation, too. I'm not trying to start an argument by saying so, but it's a fact that my 6 year old Jeep is more technologically advanced than a Gen 6 racecar.

 

[KevinWI]

Well put by both sides, and the never ending debate is only part of why we love racing (and all sports).

I would like to add that, at least F1 and Indycar's techno gimmicks are directly applicable to regular street vehicles. If your car had aero surfaces for more downforce in turns ("wings"), you would want them to adjust for more or less downforce/drag to meet the situation. KERS and traction control are already in use on non-racing vehicles, and information gathered under racing conditions will improve those features for normal driving use. Already familiar features like tire pressure monitors and adjustable ignition timing came as a result of racing innovation, too. I'm not trying to start an argument by saying so, but it's a fact that my 6 year old Jeep is more technologically advanced than a Gen 6 racecar.

Well said. Before they had fuel injectors, a NASCAR engine was about as technologically advanced as a 1955 Chevy.

I joke, of course, but part of the appeal of F1/IndyCar to me is the cars being on the technological bleeding edge. I like NASCAR and I understand why the cars are made to look like street family sedans, but open-wheel cars seem to be closer to what a pure-bred race car built from scratch would look like.

 

[StandOnIt]

Nascar had fuel injection in competition in 1957. The 57 Chevy's called "Black Widows" were some of the first factory involved cars in Nascar racing. There is a prevailing opinion that F1 is more technical or more advanced than Nascar. I don't think it is any more or less technical myself. It is all about clearances and machining tolerances, aerodynamics, metallurgy, etc. Neither car is built in a barn anymore, and some of the best engineers in the world work on both. Not to rub anybody the wrong way, I don't see any top drivers quitting Nascar and racing Formula 1, but i do see it going the other way from F1, Indycar, Supercars, even drivers coming in from motorcycle racing. Don't know if it is the money, or the opportunities to compete or a little of both. I can't fix nothing, but if I could, there is plenty of room for more cars in F1, so if I was the big dog, I would try to figure out how to get more cars in the field and level the playing field so the big story isn't team orders and big money wins.

 

[StandOnIt]

I like the black one better as far as "pure bred" F1, the red one is beautiful also, but you should hear the difference.

 

[SuperTex14]

Those are beauts SOI, thanks for sharing. I've heard the V8's up close at Indy, and they really scream. Like everything else, TV doesn't do it justice, but the comparison between different types of cars on the same audio system is valid.

For awesome racecar noise, the bark of the 1000 hp Can-Am racers from the '70's and '80's can't be beat. They used to run them at Road America occasionally. I thought the Grand Am Daytona prototypes sounded pretty cool on TV from Austin last month (more of a throaty roar), might have to check them out in person...

 

[StandOnIt]

I have posted this before, but this is like the song "the day the music died". yeah it is not open wheel, but Rodger Penske owned the car..close enough? This to me was the end of technology, and from this point forward, every form of motor racing started limiting the technology. Nascar outlawed the big motors, Can am and F1 did the same thing. But this baby below has never been surpassed in raw speed. A Nascar team took their superbird out to the salt flats and ran 216 with that brick. but this thing would run 250, air cooled even.

 

[Matthew2470]

The only comparison between F1 and NASCAR is that both series feature cars with 4 wheels. Trying to apply other series' principles to each other just doesn't cut it.

FTR, I watched the F1 race and had no idea any of this happened. It was only after I opened this thread today that I learned of this controversy. I'll be needing to watch all of the F1 pre-shows to get up to speed.

 

[StandOnIt]

I'm not harping. I was watching wind tunnel and at least one guy agrees with me. Dave Despain was talking to Bob Varsha about the team orders and the coasting around. Bob gave about the same answer I got here, saving the stuff etc. Dave said almost the exact same thing I typed, he knew his opinion meant nothing, but whomever..fix it so they race...I cracked up.

 

[KevinWI]

The only comparison between F1 and NASCAR is that both series feature cars with 4 wheels. Trying to apply other series' principles to each other just doesn't cut it.

FTR, I watched the F1 race and had no idea any of this happened. It was only after I opened this thread today that I learned of this controversy. I'll be needing to watch all of the F1 pre-shows to get up to speed.

Did you watch the post-race stuff? They showed the driver's green room and Webber was pissed. Then it was the most awkward podium in the history of F1.

I don't know if it's a language thing or if Vettel is just playing dumb but he, too, acted like he didn't know why Webber was mad.

 

[Matthew2470]

Did you watch the post-race stuff? They showed the driver's green room and Webber was pissed. Then it was the most awkward podium in the history of F1.

I don't know if it's a language thing or if Vettel is just playing dumb but he, too, acted like he didn't know why Webber was mad.

I was annoyed that Vettel won so I stopped watching and deleted my recording. Normally I watch all of the post race. The one time I don't and something interesting happens. Figures.