rules.... rod weight

N

neil adams

Guest
gee....out of all the rods i have balanced over the years....the bob weight numbers were the "average weight of the rods. so which end of the rod was light? big end or small eng? could the average of all the rods meet the rules? is nascar like IMCA ? forest /tree thing! if it was off ,it would screwup the balance. average....average...average. a couple of grams over or under. did they clean the assembly lube off the bolts? that would cover the 2.7 grams. get real you guys. it is the average that sets the balance weights. thanks neil adams
 
Don't mean to hijack your thread but I think this kind of fits here :)

http://www.jayski.com/cupnews.htm#20130428a

Toyota recalls three Bowyer engines: A parts review by Toyota after #20-Matt Kenseth's penalty led the manufacturer to pull three engines from Michael Waltrip Racing's inventory as a precautionary move. All three engines recalled were earmarked for #15-Clint Bowyer. One was his engine for Saturday night's race at Richmond; the other two were his primary and backup engines for Talladega. "We took every connecting rod in our inventory and removed anything that was too close for comfort," Toyota Racing Development vice president David Wilson told The Associated Press. The review found that there was at least one connecting rod in each of the three Bowyer engines that left TRD uncomfortable in the wake of Kenseth's issue. The issue began when the manufacturer shipped the connecting rod to TRD even though it was outside the tolerance the manufacturer allows on weight. It came with paperwork that clearly stated its weight, and that was missed by TRD employees. Now the manufacturer is backtracking to double-check everything in inventory while also reviewing its own quality control practices.
 
Rules are rules. TRD being too lazy/cheap to weigh the rods is what caused this entire mess.
 
neil adams said:
gee....out of all the rods i have balanced over the years....the bob weight numbers were the "average weight of the rods. so which end of the rod was light? big end or small eng? could the average of all the rods meet the rules? is nascar like IMCA ? forest /tree thing! if it was off ,it would screwup the balance. average....average...average. a couple of grams over or under. did they clean the assembly lube off the bolts? that would cover the 2.7 grams. get real you guys. it is the average that sets the balance weights. thanks neil adams
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Balancing is not that critical. As long as the c/shaft has some over balance and is not under balanced it will be fine. As for the rods, those rods were very high dollar parts and there would have been very little discernible variation in weight from rod to rod. NASCAR is not concerned about small end weight versus big end weight, they are only concerned about the total weight. Rules state the minimum weight is 525 grams. This story is pure "spin", they want you to believe someone was negligent in weighing rods, didn't do their job or one weighed way lower than the others. You don't get a job in this business with work like that. Only the cream of the crop survives or even gets a chance for that matter. This story does not pass the smell test. We don't know the truth about this one.
 
Rusty34 said:
Balancing is not that critical. As long as the c/shaft has some over balance and is not under balanced it will be fine. As for the rods, those rods were very high dollar parts and there would have been very little discernible variation in weight from rod to rod. NASCAR is not concerned about small end weight versus big end weight, they are only concerned about the total weight. Rules state the minimum weight is 525 grams. This story is pure "spin", they want you to believe someone was negligent in weighing rods, didn't do their job or one weighed way lower than the others. You don't get a job in this business with work like that. Only the cream of the crop survives or even gets a chance for that matter. This story does not pass the smell test. We don't know the truth about this one.
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Then what do think the real story or truth is?
 
Oh I don't know the answer to that but I am willing to wager stock Toyota passenger car rods don't vary in weight rod to rod as much as they claim these $3000 Formula 1 quality race rods do.
 
Rusty34 said:
Oh I don't know the answer to that but I am willing to wager stock Toyota passenger car rods don't vary in weight rod to rod as much as they claim these $3000 Formula 1 quality race rods do.
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Huh? don't guess you have balanced and blueprinted any stock block passenger car engines. Different process is used, I lightened everything to the lightest rod/ piston combination and the difference was substantial. 28 grams to an ounce and It was nothing to be three four ounces difference..84 grams. You do the crank shaft separately BTW. They haven't said a thing about the pistons because they were within specs...crankshaft too.
 
StandOnIt said:
Huh? don't guess you have balanced and blueprinted any stock block passenger car engines. Different process is used, I lightened everything to the lightest rod/ piston combination and the difference was substantial. 28 grams to an ounce and It was nothing to be three four ounces difference..84 grams. You do the crank shaft separately BTW. They haven't said a thing about the pistons because they were within specs...crankshaft too.
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I've done a bunch years ago. I remember typical OEM production total rod weights varying 10 to 15 grams within a set. Our standard practice was to weigh each rod big end first and pick the lightest one and machine others to equal the lightest. Then weigh small ends and repeat in order to get figures for making bobweights for balancing. If it was a stock rebuild we used 50% of the reciprocating weight for balancing. If a "hot street" or race build 51% (overbalance) was used. I don't like the term "blueprinting" because in the case of general automotive machine shop engine rebuilding your machine and assembly work is either precise or it's not. In the case of NASCAR engines they approve the basic blueprint and then enforce compliance to it with rules. NASCAR permits modifications in several different areas where those specifications are open to interpretation and change all the time because of research and development. Today's manufacturing methods are far more precise than what we typically worked with in the "old school" high performance industry back then and I would not be surprised if a set of rods in a modern passenger car were all with-in 2 or 3 grams.
 
this explains Blueprinting...and balancing..rods should be weighed after they are blueprinted/clearanced to size..clearance fit to the wrist pin of the piston and the crankshaft journal fit.

Balancing & Blueprinting is nothing more than machining different engine parts to specific tolerances.

Balancing

To balance a V-8 engine requires 50% of reciprocating weight plus 100% of rotating weight, for a V-8 engine.

Reciprocating weight: Piston (1), rings (1 set), wrist pin (1), and small end of connecting rod (1).

Rotating weight: Big end of connecting rod, rod bolts & nuts, rod bearings, & oil supply to crankshaft bearings. Because there are two rods to each jounal then the rotating weight is x 2.

The pistons are all machined to weigh the same. The big end of connecting rods and small end of connecting rod are machined to weight the same (separately). Then the weights of the pistons, big end of connecting rods, small end of connecting rod, one set of rod bearings, one set of rings, one wrist pins and oil weight (usually 6 grams) is recorded and the bob weights are made up from the formula for the type of crankshaft being balanced. Then the bob weights (4 for a V8), dampener, flywheel (flex plate) are bolted to the crankshaft and spun to balance the left side and the right side of the crankshaft. Then spun with the left side and right side coupled together to make sure the crankshaft is still in balance.
The crankshaft is either welded on the counter weights (or heavy metal installed) or drilled on the counter weights (left and right) to bring the crankshaft into balance.


Blueprinting
To blueprint an engine consists of several machine shop operations including but not limited to:
Bore & hone cylinders (usually w/Deck plates) and honed to the correct clearance.
Line bore or line hone the main housing bore in the block. (Or at least check to see if the housing bore is within the correct specificaions).
Re-size connecting rods (big end & sometimes small end).
Turn & index crankshaft.
3 angle valve job cylinder heads (to a specific width & place on valve face).
Fitting valve guides to a specific clearance.
Setting up valve springs to the right installed height & pressure, both open & closed.
Surfacing block and cylinder heads straight & with the right RMS finish.
Race engines require even more blueprinting----such as; cc'ing heads, machining for exact deck, block clearancing for crankshaft, & cam to rod clearance, porting & polishing, shot peening, heat treating,---the list goes on & on.
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I don't understand what the issue with weight is . Nascar says 525 grams minimum weight and the team agrees they were 2.7 grams underweight . Doesn't really matter how they weighed it , the fact that it was 2.7 underweight is not in dispute . The team is appealing the gigantic overkill penalty which will cost them in excess of a million bucks .
There are very few teams in Nascar that can afford this size of fine . In the analogy given above , it is the equivalent over going 66 mph in a 65 mph zone AND receiving a million dollar fine . I realize that Nascar has to make a statement , but ,if this were to happen to a smaller team , it would be over for them .
 
StandOnIt said:
it has been pointed out to ya Ted..many times..it does happen to smaller teams...remember the Carl long thread I posted for you.here we go again: try to remember Ted:)
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-top-ten-most-fined-sprint-cup-drivers/page/8
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OK , one last time . Carl's fine was what ? $200,000. ? The Gibbs fine could easily run into the millions . If Nascar continues down this road of escalating fines , it will end badly . Just as it did for my teacher in grade school , who kept escalating the strapping . RIP :D
 
won't end badly for people who can build a legal engine, run the right tires in the right position and not mess with the fuel. That is part of competing in the top level of auto racing. don't do the crime if you can't pay the fine
 
StandOnIt said:
won't end badly for people who can build a legal engine, run the right tires in the right position and not mess with the fuel. That is part of competing in the top level of auto racing. don't do the crime if you can't pay the fine
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It looks like you figured that out way to easy, if you want to be a real hero and make some really good money, then figure out how to tell if an engine is legal or illegal after it is sealed by the vendor, and then sell that information to JGR.;):D
 
StandOnIt said:
won't end badly for people who can build a legal engine, run the right tires in the right position and not mess with the fuel. That is part of competing in the top level of auto racing. don't do the crime if you can't pay the fine
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I agree 100% and I think that Joe Gibbs agrees . Perhaps , years down the road , you might have an ' ah ha ' moment and say , "Sheet that Ted and Joe were right ". :D
 
Nitro Dude said:
It looks like you figured that out way to easy, if you want to be a real hero and make some really good money, then figure out how to tell if an engine is legal or illegal after it is sealed by the vendor, and then sell that information to JGR.;):D
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And Stewart Haas. And Roger Penske.
 
ted@economy said:
I don't know about cash , but perhaps an in store credit ?
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Depends on what kind of store.lol...All jokes aside, I hope that JGR can get this problem figured out so that it doesn't happen again. Even though some don't think it's fair Nascar is just doing their job and I'm sure it's not an easy job trying to keep all these teams in check. I think overall Nascar does a pretty decent job of keeping it a level playing field.
 
Nitro Dude said:
Depends on what kind of store.lol...All jokes aside, I hope that JGR can get this problem figured out so that it doesn't happen again. Even though some don't think it's fair Nascar is just doing their job and I'm sure it's not an easy job trying to keep all these teams in check. I think overall Nascar does a pretty decent job of keeping it a level playing field.
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Absolutely correct.
 
StandOnIt said:
sealed engines are for sissys..and toyota aparently, real men build their own.:partytime
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Now, you have my attention.:) You and I couldn't agree more. I would love to see all the big teams build there own engines. If they did then this mistake probably wouldn't have happened.
 
Nitro Dude said:
Now, you have my attention.:) You and I couldn't agree more. I would love to see all the big teams build there own engines. If they did then this mistake probably wouldn't have happened.
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What about the small teams? How could they compete if they had to do their own R&D on the motors?
 
Smoke14 said:
What about the small teams? How could they compete if they had to do their own R&D on the motors?
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They would still have to lease engines. I wasn't talking about making it a mandatory rule, I was just saying that I would love to see the big teams build their own engines.
 
Smoke14 said:
What about the small teams? How could they compete if they had to do their own R&D on the motors?
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they don't compete except for a place better then 38th. 38th on back pays the same prize money, they start and park. small team like Kurt Bush buy engines from Childress. Stewart's bunch buy Hendrick engines, Gannasi teams are running Hendrick engines also. Smaller Ford teams buy from Roush/Yates if they can afford it.
 
StandOnIt said:
they don't compete except for a place better then 38th. 38th on back pays the same prize money, they start and park. small team like Kurt Bush buy engines from Childress. Stewart's bunch buy Hendrick engines, Gannasi teams are running Hendrick engines also. Smaller Ford teams buy from Roush/Yates if they can afford it.
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How much does a team like Kurt's and Tonys have to pay to lease an engine for a race?
 
I heard about 80 grand for a motor cost, I don't have a clue about the lease money.
Most top racing teams build their own engines from scratch. The total cost of these engines, which take more than 100 hours to build, is anywhere between $45,000 and $80,000 [source: Martin, Hendrick Motorsports]. At Hendrick Motosports, a racing shop that supports four different Sprint Cup teams, a 95-person engine department cranks out more than 600 engines a year [source: Hendrick Motorsports
 
StandOnIt said:
I heard about 80 grand for a motor cost, I don't have a clue about the lease money.
Most top racing teams build their own engines from scratch. The total cost of these engines, which take more than 100 hours to build, is anywhere between $45,000 and $80,000 [source: Martin, Hendrick Motorsports]. At Hendrick Motosports, a racing shop that supports four different Sprint Cup teams, a 95-person engine department cranks out more than 600 engines a year [source: Hendrick Motorsports
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I have been to the Hendrick shop but I didn't have a clue about what they charge for an engine. They sure have a nice operation though. My guess would be that they lease the engine out and then get it back after the race is over.
 
StandOnIt said:
this explains Blueprinting...and balancing..rods should be weighed after they are blueprinted/clearanced to size..clearance fit to the wrist pin of the piston and the crankshaft journal fit.

Balancing & Blueprinting is nothing more than machining different engine parts to specific tolerances.

Balancing

To balance a V-8 engine requires 50% of reciprocating weight plus 100% of rotating weight, for a V-8 engine.

Reciprocating weight: Piston (1), rings (1 set), wrist pin (1), and small end of connecting rod (1).

Rotating weight: Big end of connecting rod, rod bolts & nuts, rod bearings, & oil supply to crankshaft bearings. Because there are two rods to each jounal then the rotating weight is x 2.

The pistons are all machined to weigh the same. The big end of connecting rods and small end of connecting rod are machined to weight the same (separately). Then the weights of the pistons, big end of connecting rods, small end of connecting rod, one set of rod bearings, one set of rings, one wrist pins and oil weight (usually 6 grams) is recorded and the bob weights are made up from the formula for the type of crankshaft being balanced. Then the bob weights (4 for a V8), dampener, flywheel (flex plate) are bolted to the crankshaft and spun to balance the left side and the right side of the crankshaft. Then spun with the left side and right side coupled together to make sure the crankshaft is still in balance.
The crankshaft is either welded on the counter weights (or heavy metal installed) or drilled on the counter weights (left and right) to bring the crankshaft into balance.


Blueprinting
To blueprint an engine consists of several machine shop operations including but not limited to:
Bore & hone cylinders (usually w/Deck plates) and honed to the correct clearance.
Line bore or line hone the main housing bore in the block. (Or at least check to see if the housing bore is within the correct specificaions).
Re-size connecting rods (big end & sometimes small end).
Turn & index crankshaft.
3 angle valve job cylinder heads (to a specific width & place on valve face).
Fitting valve guides to a specific clearance.
Setting up valve springs to the right installed height & pressure, both open & closed.
Surfacing block and cylinder heads straight & with the right RMS finish.
Race engines require even more blueprinting----such as; cc'ing heads, machining for exact deck, block clearancing for crankshaft, & cam to rod clearance, porting & polishing, shot peening, heat treating,---the list goes on & on.
user_offline.gif


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that come from holman moody ?
 
Unfortunately , teams owning engine shops is going the other way . Gibbs and Penske both gave up .I think that EGR is dicey . If EGR were gone , it would only leave one builder for each brand . Three builders for 43 cars . Maybe Nascar could stop any "cheating" , by doing their inspections right in the engine shops ,before the engines are sealed .
 
This is why the engine builder needs to bear the brunt of any engine fines. Pay or have your engines banned from the sport. I guess a team could sue a builder to get some money back, but they may go out of business while waiting.
 
Why not have the engine builder foot the bill for an on site Nascar inspector ?
 
I agree, rules are rules. My beef is that the penalty doesn't fit the infraction.
All NASCAR is doing is hammering the guy that's led hundreds more laps than anyone else thus far this season.
 
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