Start and park

VaDirt

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Surprised this hasn't been discussed here at all. I thought I heard something this weekend about Nascar going after the "start & park" teams, trying to make them prove there was something wrong with the car that caused them to park it. Just saw this over on Jaski's.

NASCAR scrutinizing start and park team reasons UPDATE: NASCAR won’t create a hard-line rule prohibiting Sprint Cup teams from starting a race and then parking their car a few laps later, but NASCAR Vice President of Competition Robin Pemberton said Friday there is an increased emphasis on making sure that the reason a team gives for falling out of the race is legitimate. Although there are only 36 cars that have the funding to run the entire season, several teams are trying to make races each week. In past years, when there haven’t been 43 fully funded cars, some drivers started the race, parked in the opening laps and pocketed the last-place money. “We owe it to the garage area [to make sure] that everybody is on the up-and-up,” Pemberton said in the Atlanta Motor Speedway garage Friday. “When they call [they’re] out, we will continue to look at what put those cars at. What we’re going to encourage at this level here is that people participate and do what they can do to race. What we want to prevent is someone legitimately trying to do a race setup and getting bumped out by somebody that may have gone above and beyond what the spirit of the rules are.” Pemberton said NASCAR doesn’t expect every team to be able to run up front, but those that make the final 43 need to be on the track racing someone. “There’s people that aren’t top-10 cars but they compete against other people that are 25th through 35th,” Pemberton said. “We need to encourage those guys to race each other.” As far as the Nationwide and Truck events, where there have traditionally been start-and-park racers over the last few years, Pemberton said there could be a little more leniency. “There’s more at stake with the purses and whatever else that goes on [in Cup], but we are going to encourage the level of competition throughout the ranks the best that we can,” Pemberton said.(SceneDaily)(3-6-2009)
UPDATE: That panic attack – combined with the weakness implied by having a less than full field – forced NASCAR to do whatever it could simply to bring teams to the race track. At Atlanta, an anonymous Truck Series driver also told Frontstretch that NASCAR had contacted them personally about running a Fontana start and park – a choice they decided not to make after NASCAR figured out they’d have enough trucks without them making an unscheduled trip to California. “NASCAR came to me and said they wanted more cars, they wanted to park,” said the owner/driver. “[So] we were going to go out there [Fontana] and do a start and park…for NASCAR.”(Frontstretch)(3-11-2009
 
Nothing new...say one thing do another thats their motto.

If they make a rule to try to stop start and park teams they will find a cheaper engine piece that is designed to last a few laps and break so they have a legit reason.

Anybody know if the rules say you can change a carburator during the weekend or does that count with the engine rules? If so put the good carburator on to get in then find the one you have had sitting in the back of the cabinet for ever that you know will be done in 10 or 20 laps.
 
As much as i dont care for field fillers, there just trying to make a few bucks. The truck and nationwide series is well known for this. I watched the Nationwide race last week and by the 10th lap there was already 6 cars out.
 
It's all about the money Na$car pays out. Last place at Atlanta paid Bliss $70,141 in Cup. Rogers got $7,990 in truck . Last place NNW in Vegas paid Setzer $21,582.
Just some rough Yankee cyphering, all getting last place money. 5 fillers in Cup=$350,000+, 5 in Truck=$40,000+, 5 in NNW=$107,500+. Big difference in what Na$car has to dig deep for, NNW and Truck is chicken feed compared to the Cup pay out. That hurts brian, paying for non-performance.
 
It's all about the money Na$car pays out. Last place at Atlanta paid Bliss $70,141 in Cup. Rogers got $7,990 in truck . Last place NNW in Vegas paid Setzer $21,582.
Just some rough Yankee cyphering, all getting last place money. 5 fillers in Cup=$350,000+, 5 in Truck=$40,000+, 5 in NNW=$107,500+. Big difference in what Na$car has to dig deep for, NNW and Truck is chicken feed compared to the Cup pay out. That hurts brian, paying for non-performance.

Mabey the last 4 cars shouldn't get anything.
 
It's all about the money Na$car pays out. Last place at Atlanta paid Bliss $70,141 in Cup. Rogers got $7,990 in truck . Last place NNW in Vegas paid Setzer $21,582.
Just some rough Yankee cyphering, all getting last place money. 5 fillers in Cup=$350,000+, 5 in Truck=$40,000+, 5 in NNW=$107,500+. Big difference in what Na$car has to dig deep for, NNW and Truck is chicken feed compared to the Cup pay out. That hurts brian, paying for non-performance.

I'm sure he would rather pay the money than answer questions on why they don't have 43 cars in the race.
 
What they should do is inspect the car, engine, etc., post-race and determine if if the car was capable of maintain minimum speed and if the car is o.k. then the car owner should be fined and suspended. There are plenty of people trying to make races that actually want to race.
 
my dad said they'll probably start taking push rods out back during practice so that they break in half on lap 4
 
I think it's crap, plain and simple. Nascar's reasoning is that they think there are "teams legitimately trying to do a race setup and getting bumped out by somebody that may have gone above and beyond what the spirit of the rules are." Sprit of the rules??? WTF? First off, the top-35 rule has created this crap. If everyone had to get in on qualifying times then everyone would go and try to make the race on speed. If you want to stop stuff like this (ie, people using actual qualifying setups to qualfy faster...) then get rid of qualifying altogether! Isn't the "spirit" of qualifying to out-qualify the other guy?

:mad::mad::mad:
 
Surprised this hasn't been discussed here at all. I thought I heard something this weekend about Nascar going after the "start & park" teams, trying to make them prove there was something wrong with the car that caused them to park it. Just saw this over on Jaski's.

NASCAR scrutinizing start and park team reasons UPDATE: NASCAR won’t create a hard-line rule prohibiting Sprint Cup teams from starting a race and then parking their car a few laps later, but NASCAR Vice President of Competition Robin Pemberton said Friday there is an increased emphasis on making sure that the reason a team gives for falling out of the race is legitimate. Although there are only 36 cars that have the funding to run the entire season, several teams are trying to make races each week. In past years, when there haven’t been 43 fully funded cars, some drivers started the race, parked in the opening laps and pocketed the last-place money. “We owe it to the garage area [to make sure] that everybody is on the up-and-up,” Pemberton said in the Atlanta Motor Speedway garage Friday. “When they call [they’re] out, we will continue to look at what put those cars at. What we’re going to encourage at this level here is that people participate and do what they can do to race. What we want to prevent is someone legitimately trying to do a race setup and getting bumped out by somebody that may have gone above and beyond what the spirit of the rules are.” Pemberton said NASCAR doesn’t expect every team to be able to run up front, but those that make the final 43 need to be on the track racing someone. “There’s people that aren’t top-10 cars but they compete against other people that are 25th through 35th,” Pemberton said. “We need to encourage those guys to race each other.” As far as the Nationwide and Truck events, where there have traditionally been start-and-park racers over the last few years, Pemberton said there could be a little more leniency. “There’s more at stake with the purses and whatever else that goes on [in Cup], but we are going to encourage the level of competition throughout the ranks the best that we can,” Pemberton said.(SceneDaily)(3-6-2009)
UPDATE: That panic attack – combined with the weakness implied by having a less than full field – forced NASCAR to do whatever it could simply to bring teams to the race track. At Atlanta, an anonymous Truck Series driver also told Frontstretch that NASCAR had contacted them personally about running a Fontana start and park – a choice they decided not to make after NASCAR figured out they’d have enough trucks without them making an unscheduled trip to California. “NASCAR came to me and said they wanted more cars, they wanted to park,” said the owner/driver. “[So] we were going to go out there [Fontana] and do a start and park…for NASCAR.”(Frontstretch)(3-11-2009



This last part is where the problem lies. Nascar is more interested in full fields than whether any cars are just entered for a paycheck (S & P ers)

If someone at Nascar actually called someone to bring a S and P truck to California you just have to shake your head at the BS they try to spin
 
I think it's crap, plain and simple. Nascar's reasoning is that they think there are "teams legitimately trying to do a race setup and getting bumped out by somebody that may have gone above and beyond what the spirit of the rules are." Sprit of the rules??? WTF? First off, the top-35 rule has created this crap. If everyone had to get in on qualifying times then everyone would go and try to make the race on speed. If you want to stop stuff like this (ie, people using actual qualifying setups to qualfy faster...) then get rid of qualifying altogether! Isn't the "spirit" of qualifying to out-qualify the other guy?

:mad::mad::mad:

Yeh no kidding.....I have always been in favor of making the race on speed, the fastest 43 get to race, plain and simple. None of this BS top 35 rule that protects the "special" teams from missing a race. I know sponsorship is what it is all about, this has been discussed here so much, I can't even begin to remember how many times. There probably should be a min on the number of laps a team needs to complete before they can do the "start and park" thing. Say 50 or so, then it would be interesting, or just have smaller fields. I'm not sure that having a smaller field would really be a bad thing.
 
More on the "Start and Park": How closely will NASCAR watch for "start and park" teams in this time of less than fully funded fields in Cup races? And how harshly will NASCAR deal with them? That depends on who you talk to within NASCAR. Vice president of competition Robin Pemberton largely confirms what scenedaily.com began reporting Friday: that NASCAR is watching closely. But two officials with higher seniority are taking a more benign posture.
Jim Hunter, NASCAR's veteran vice president for corporate communications, wonders how and why NASCAR could enforce start and park. And NASCAR president Mike Helton doesn't even like to use the term "start and park" anyway. Could NASCAR actually prove a driver has parked, not for mechanical reasons stated, but to save money and still collect the minimum prize to start? "Sure we can," Pemberton said Sunday. "If somebody says the motor was sputtering due to a fuel-pump problem, we can take it apart and look at it." Bottom line, "We're encouraging people to come in and race," Pemberton said.
But, said Hunter, "It's not an issue that's paramount to the success or failure of an event, so why is it an issue [at all]." Said Helton, "I don't look at them as start and parks. I look at them as teams and drivers that are trying to figure out how to get into the sport, and that's a good thing. People talk about start and park as a negative thing, so I don't like to use that term. "I think of it more as people who have an opportunity," Helton said. "Maybe they're not up to speed yet. Maybe they're not quite capable of doing things that they want to do one day. And this is the way they get started." Helton agrees that "What Robin was referring to, we're watching to be sure that that [getting started] is the intent of these owners."
"If you were going to label somebody a start-and-parker, you would have to understand his financial situation," Hunter says. "Does the guy who might do it this week and not do it next week? Does he have the money to buy tires to really race?" It's race by race, case by case, so that there are so many factors that I don't think it's an issue," Hunter said.(ESPN Insider)(3-12-2009)
 
It's all about the money Na$car pays out. Last place at Atlanta paid Bliss $70,141 in Cup. Rogers got $7,990 in truck . Last place NNW in Vegas paid Setzer $21,582.
Just some rough Yankee cyphering, all getting last place money. 5 fillers in Cup=$350,000+, 5 in Truck=$40,000+, 5 in NNW=$107,500+. Big difference in what Na$car has to dig deep for, NNW and Truck is chicken feed compared to the Cup pay out. That hurts brian, paying for non-performance.

It all comes down to he is a promoter that is putting a payout for people to show up and race for. The guys are following the rules and nascar is pissed cause they are following the rules.
 
More on the "Start and Park": How closely will NASCAR watch for "start and park" teams in this time of less than fully funded fields in Cup races? And how harshly will NASCAR deal with them? That depends on who you talk to within NASCAR. Vice president of competition Robin Pemberton largely confirms what scenedaily.com began reporting Friday: that NASCAR is watching closely. But two officials with higher seniority are taking a more benign posture.
Jim Hunter, NASCAR's veteran vice president for corporate communications, wonders how and why NASCAR could enforce start and park. And NASCAR president Mike Helton doesn't even like to use the term "start and park" anyway. Could NASCAR actually prove a driver has parked, not for mechanical reasons stated, but to save money and still collect the minimum prize to start? "Sure we can," Pemberton said Sunday. "If somebody says the motor was sputtering due to a fuel-pump problem, we can take it apart and look at it." Bottom line, "We're encouraging people to come in and race," Pemberton said.
But, said Hunter, "It's not an issue that's paramount to the success or failure of an event, so why is it an issue [at all]." Said Helton, "I don't look at them as start and parks. I look at them as teams and drivers that are trying to figure out how to get into the sport, and that's a good thing. People talk about start and park as a negative thing, so I don't like to use that term. "I think of it more as people who have an opportunity," Helton said. "Maybe they're not up to speed yet. Maybe they're not quite capable of doing things that they want to do one day. And this is the way they get started." Helton agrees that "What Robin was referring to, we're watching to be sure that that [getting started] is the intent of these owners."
"If you were going to label somebody a start-and-parker, you would have to understand his financial situation," Hunter says. "Does the guy who might do it this week and not do it next week? Does he have the money to buy tires to really race?" It's race by race, case by case, so that there are so many factors that I don't think it's an issue," Hunter said.(ESPN Insider)(3-12-2009)
nice to see nascar in agreement about this, whatever it is <g>
 
Whats the difference if they park it after 2 laps?

Mabey REAL racers would make the race then.

True that may work but what a race like Talledega 500 theres more teams trying out that will try and complete the race unlike alot of other races.

In my opinion i belive that they should make it only the top 30 are automaticly in and instead of teams making a one lap qualifying setup they should have a 10 lap sprint race to see who is there to race.
 
Who are the start and parkers in cup? The ones I notice are in the Nationwide race. For a long time I didn't know what they were doing and would just think to myself, "Who the heck is that and why are they always out within a few laps?" Kenny Hendrick is one who comes to mind. I don't watch Nationwide qualifying like I do cup, so I don't really know if they really have any go or go-homers. Seems to me in cup they're always fighting to get in those races and a lot of times guys I know would race no matter where they are running, just don't make the field.
 
Who are the start and parkers in cup? The ones I notice are in the Nationwide race. For a long time I didn't know what they were doing and would just think to myself, "Who the heck is that and why are they always out within a few laps?" Kenny Hendrick is one who comes to mind. I don't watch Nationwide qualifying like I do cup, so I don't really know if they really have any go or go-homers. Seems to me in cup they're always fighting to get in those races and a lot of times guys I know would race no matter where they are running, just don't make the field.
cup- top 35
n'wide- top 30
trucks- top 25 (maybe 30? not sure)
 
So what do you think if one of the teams outside of last years top 35, say a Tony Stewart were to blow an engine or somethin in qualifyin......... With teams switchin points, NASCAR lettin em do it..... and worry with last years points thru the first few reaces, it could have been interestin........
I mean think about it..... Tony as a go or go home driver, takes the green for qualifyin, cuts a tire down the back stretch...... and is 48th fastest...... but, say Morgan Shepard manages to keep his tires on, not blow up, and is 32nd fastest....... and lets say on the same weekend Jimmy Johnson has troubles, and missed the show...........What new rule would NASCAR create????
and think about it, there is still one more week to go on last years points...... then what if kinda the same thing happens, but it is Mark Martin..... what would NASCAR say if Mark missedthe show in a HMS car, but Nemecheck made the race, ran 2 laps and parked it........

I see both sides of the issue, but I think NASCAR has REALLY screwed up this whole qualifyin thing......... I mean you've got guys some weekends that are top 25 in speed missin the race because of the lock ins....... its not right, so I say atta boy to anyone that makes the show.... if they want to pocket the money, good for them........
 
You pose an interesting scenario speedway.

I'd like to see the fastest 43 with nobody is locked in. No past champ provisional.

If in qualifying there's a tire, motor or other problem that's not driver related they get a mulligan, a do it again. If it is driver error such as overdriving a corner and slapping the wall, good bye boys seeya next week.

Nah, never happen. Can you just imagine the uproar if Gordon,Johnson, Tony, Jr, etc cut a tire and didn't make the race?

Anyone really know how it came to be only 43 starters? In the early days fields were much larger.
 
Not 100% sure, but as near as I know, and remember, the fields were done like this........

in the early days, it was pretty much those that showed, qualified, and raced..... at least on the big tracks. Many times local ordaninces, and laws dictated how many cars could start. As a result, you had very large fields at places like Daytona and Darlington. Then I think Insuarance and the likes starting mandating a lower car count. ( at least that was the way it was on the local level.....
Then the Modern Era began........ And with it, all kinds of new rules, and lost races....... Seems to me like in the late seventies and early eighties, the field was around 35-37 on short tracks, and around 40 or so on speedways... ( numbers are probably wrong, but close....) The feilds were set by two day qualifying...... ( That was your "mulligan"...) seems like all spots were on time.... with the exception of like 2 provisionals, for points......First round qualifyin was to set positions 1-20, then later, 1-25...... Second round gave those who had problem a second chance.... though they could do no better than mid pack, even if they were the fastest car there.... they would still make the show.... Thats how it was done....... Which in my opinion, was fair, made the most sense, and left it in the hands of the crew and drivers...... So naturally NASCAR had to change it....lol
Then problems started...... Richard Petty failed to make a race in the late 80's or early 90's....... so the next week, we had "Past Champions Provisional...... That one blew up in NASCAR's face a few years later, when DW used it time and time again, so NASCAR put limits on it..... eventually leading to a Waltrip-less race....
Then somewhere around the late 90's, NASCAR decided to equal the starting field for all tracks...... They came up with 42, plus one for Past Champ if needed..... later they simply raised it to a full 43 car field............ which natuarally caused all kinds of headahes for the short tracks, and watkins glen..... but they adapted..... Now it is as if 43 is the "Magic Number'......... problem is, they have royally screwed up the way to get to it...... How fair is it if I'm 30th quick, but miss the show because you have doled out all but a handful of positions to people just because they can afford to go race every week......
 
Speedway, most of what you wrote is spot on. But the Past Champions Provisional was limited after it was misused by HOF team That put Terry Labonte in the car so they were more or less guaranteed a spot. When Michael Waltrip lured Dale Jarrett to one of his cars, NASCAR put a limit on the number of times a driver could use the PCP, angering Jarrett and his team.
Even these days, a team will call on Terry to help them make the field.
 
Great post Speedway!
The half mile tracks only started 32 cars and NASCAR ended that in the very late eighties or early nineties. I don't remember the exact year. When Richmond was rebuilt to a three quarter mile facility, more cars were in the field but can't recall the number established there but it was higher than the half mile tracks.

It wasn't pretty watching the low budget teams on the full schedule struggle to make races at those short tracks; and because of the limited number of qualifying positions a lot of guys went home. This was the era when teams failed to qualify based on times 1 or 2/10ths of a second off last place qualifiers. It wasn't that much earlier, teams posted qualifying times separated by as much as a full second and more and a team would still make the field.
 

Interesting article, thanks for posting.

"Only two provisional starting positions were available, primarily being set from the top-35 positions in car owner points."

Wish they'd go back to this. Put some emphasis on qualifying again, and still utilize the top-35 rule that was primarly created for loyal sponsors/teams. Everyone would still have to qualify, but thyis would give a couple of those loyal teams the opportunity to race should something happen to screw up their qualifying run.
 
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