The Appeal Process

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MELROSEMAFIA

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National Stock Car Racing Commission...32 members...Humpy Wheeler, Buddy Baker, Harry Gant, Janet Guthrie, to name a few...several other track owners and executives are also on the board. All are Governed by the head bagel Mr. Silbermann...He RANDOMLY (LOL) picks 2 board members to join himself in overseeing the hearing....If RCR does'nt agree with the commissions decission, he can appeal to the comissioner Mr. Strang..former ceo of OMC CORP..His decission is FINAL...
 
So..... This process is to take place Wednesday afternoon but I'm not sure when they're to announce the verdict. I wonder if we'll hear anything later that afternoon?

I'd like to know which two members are chosen to hear the 'tow truck' appeal. After listening to Buddy Baker on SNR talk about this over the past week, I think he'd be on RCR's side. He has stated several times that if a car goes through tech that many times at the track before and after a race and they can't find the issue at the track, then it should be legal. Somehow, I don't think he's going to be selected.
 
How interesting could this have been had this occurred after Homestead? Say..... Jimmie Johnson wins the final race of the Chase and beats, second place, Denny Hamlin by 140 pts. in the overall standings. Jimmie and team celebrate their 'Drive for Five' run in victory lane. Most all of the fans leave the track in disappointment. Most of the rest of us turn off our television sets in disgust vowing never to watch this sport again. All ten of his fans run out and buy their new t-shirts. :rolleyes: Then, Wednesday rolls around and it's determined @ the R&D facility that Jimmie Johnson and crew's car is out of spec and is now facing the possibility of a 150 pt. reduction. What happens then?

Do we ever hear a word about the failed inspection?

Does NASCAR get the engraver on the phone to carve in Denny's name?

Is the banquet put on hold while the appeal and the appeal to the appeal is heard?

Thoughts?
 
How interesting could this have been had this occurred after Homestead? Say..... Jimmie Johnson wins the final race of the Chase and beats, second place, Denny Hamlin by 140 pts. in the overall standings. Jimmie and team celebrate their 'Drive for Five' run in victory lane. Most all of the fans leave the track in disappointment. Most of the rest of us turn off our television sets in disgust vowing never to watch this sport again. All ten of his fans run out and buy their new t-shirts. :rolleyes: Then, Wednesday rolls around and it's determined @ the R&D facility that Jimmie Johnson and crew's car is out of spec and is now facing the possibility of a 150 pt. reduction. What happens then?

Do we ever hear a word about the failed inspection?

Does NASCAR get the engraver on the phone to carve in Denny's name?

Is the banquet put on hold while the appeal and the appeal to the appeal is heard?

Thoughts?
If this happened at the end of the season we would never have the car go to the R&D center, never happen. JJ would be crowned champion and that would be the end of it.
 
If this happened at the end of the season we would never have the car go to the R&D center, never happen. JJ would be crowned champion and that would be the end of it.

Here is another "what if" for your consideration. Big wreck at Dega,takes out most of the leaders and most of the chasers. Jimmy Johnson is one of the only ones to get back on track,many laps down. By running the remaining laps , all taped up and bungi corded ; he improves his position by twenty or more places. Nascar takes him to R&D and finds him more that 60thou out. What do they do? It was obviously due to the crash, but now , a rule is a rule, right ?
 
Here is another "what if" for your consideration. Big wreck at Dega,takes out most of the leaders and most of the chasers. Jimmy Johnson is one of the only ones to get back on track,many laps down. By running the remaining laps , all taped up and bungi corded ; he improves his position by twenty or more places. Nascar takes him to R&D and finds him more that 60thou out. What do they do? It was obviously due to the crash, but now , a rule is a rule, right ?

Good point, that sure would raise some hell!
 
So what happened? When is the outcome going to be announced?
 
Childress lost the appeal, it is on the Ap wire, Childress is taking it higher.
 
The five-hours of deliberation took so long that Childress placed a sign in a window that said, "Order Pizza & Budweiser."

I had to laugh at this statement.
 
kind of says it all.

Childress brought in Dr. Charles Manning, who owns Accident Reconstruction Analysis in Raleigh, N.C. Manning said he has no doubt that Bowyer's car was knocked out of tolerance the sixty-thousands of an inch that NASCAR claimed by the wrecker that pushed it after it ran out of gas following the win. Manning said he duplicated the incident with a wrecker and car of the same specifications.
"They [the commission] paid no attention, which says something about what's going on in there," said Manning, noting his company, founded in 1979, has been used many times to prove cause in a court of law. "What we brought was positive proof that the damage was caused by the tow truck pushing the car." Manning was whisked away before further comment.
 
Well.......we all knew Bowyer was gonna take it dry, and he did.
Whats next to chew the fat about??
MoMike
 
Will Bowyer take out the Chase leaders so Harvick can get up there easier?Hows that one.

Doubt it, the guy doesn't need any more penalties. If I understand NASCAR rules correctly, if he can't serve out his penalties by the end of this season, they carry onto the next season.
 
kind of says it all.

Childress brought in Dr. Charles Manning, who owns Accident Reconstruction Analysis in Raleigh, N.C. Manning said he has no doubt that Bowyer's car was knocked out of tolerance the sixty-thousands of an inch that NASCAR claimed by the wrecker that pushed it after it ran out of gas following the win. Manning said he duplicated the incident with a wrecker and car of the same specifications.
"They [the commission] paid no attention, which says something about what's going on in there," said Manning, noting his company, founded in 1979, has been used many times to prove cause in a court of law. "What we brought was positive proof that the damage was caused by the tow truck pushing the car." Manning was whisked away before further comment.


If this isn't proof that nascar is a sham then I don't know what is. This whole incident makes me question the integrity of the higher ups in nascar more and more with every article I read. It got to the point that NASCAR knew they were wrong, or could be wrong, but were going to go against any proof RCR could come up with to prove a point, to show whose boss. I feel like it's turning into WWF, the outcome will be what they want it to be one way or another.
 
On September 29, 2010, the National Stock Car Racing Appeals Panel heard and considered the appeal of Richard Childress Racing regarding four penalties issued by NASCAR relative to the #33 NASCAR Sprint Cup Series car. This stemmed from post-race inspection following a NASCAR Sprint Cup Series event at New Hampshire Motor Raceway on September 21, 2010.



The penalties concern Section 12-1 of the NASCAR Rule Book “Actions detrimental to stock car racing.”; Section 12-4-J: “Any determination by NASCAR Officials that the Race Equipment used in the Event does not conform to NASCAR Rules”; and Section 20-3: “The car body location specifications in reference to the certified chassis does not meet the NASCAR-approved specifications.”



The penalties assessed were:



-Loss of 150 NASCAR Sprint Cup Series Championship Car Owner points for owner, Richard Childress



-Loss of 150 NASCAR Sprint Cup Series Championship Driver points for driver, Clint Bowyer



-$150,000 fine; suspension from the next six (6) NASCAR Sprint Cup Series Championship Events; suspension from NASCAR until November 3, 2010; and probation until December 31, 2010 for crew chief Shane Wilson



- Suspension from the next six (6) NASCAR Sprint Cup Series Championship Events; suspension from NASCAR until November 3, 2010; and probation until December 31, 2010 for crew member Chad Haney



The Appellants requested and were granted a deferral of the suspensions and fine until such time as this hearing could be convened.



The Appellants did not contest that the car measured out of specifications upon inspection.



The Appellants argued that, having received a warning about the car body of the #33 car being “too close” following the Richmond race, that it was inconceivable that they would bring a non-conforming car to New Hampshire.



They argued that the left rear frame member was actually bent upward as a result of the car being pushed towards Victory Lane by a wrecker after the post-race burnouts, which resulted in the left rear measurement “hard point” being too high. To this end, they also presented an accident reconstruction specialist to demonstrate that a wrecker might bend up the left rear strut in the trunk under certain conditions. The specialists, however, indicated that such an occurrence would strictly affect the left rear because of the match-up between the wrecker pushbar and the angle of the racecar’s rear bumper. He went on to say that the corresponding right rear measurements should not be affected, in his view, nor the frame member deformed as a team representative had alleged.



The Appellants also contested the severity and timing of the penalty.



Claims that the wrecker caused the infraction were negated by the telemetry from the car which did not show a sharp impact spike; by the fact that the rear template still fit snugly across the entire rear of the car; by a visual inspection of the rear of the car which showed nothing of note in the way of damage; and a visual review of the videotape of post race assistance tendered by the wrecker which appeared as relatively gentle pushing.



Of significance to the Panel were some additional facts which came to light during the hearing. Particularly of note were the facts that both rear hard points, left and right, were high, and that the rear of the body was offset on the frame.



The Panel found that the penalties were consistent for infractions of this magnitude.



Therefore, it is the unanimous decision of the National Stock Car Racing Appeals Panel to uphold the original penalties.



The periods of suspension shall be adjusted from the date of the hearing.



The Appellants have the right under Section 15 of the Rule Book to appeal this decision to the National Stock Car Racing Chief Appellate Officer. The Appellants submitted such a request and the fee immediately after the conclusion of the hearing.



John Capels

Lyn St James

Waddell Wilson

George Silbermann - Appellate Administrator and non-voting member
 
It sounds to me like the 'black box' was the demise of the 'tow truck' defense. In RCR's statement they say that Dr. Manning duplicated the incident with a wrecker and car of the same specifications. It may be that he did but it might also be that it took quite a bit more force than what was experienced by the original car. Who knows? We sure don't because there's not much detail on what they went over yesterday.

I just hope that RCR isn't putting so much effort into this that it distracts them from the real deal this time of the year.
 
Confidential memo to brain from the appeals board:


:fixed:


Send our money.

ps pay your alimony and child support scumbag
 
So now they saying the frame is bent.I thought this was about body mounting points.If the frame is bent how was the chassis deemed "passed inspection" at the track.Sounds like a big pile of crap this is turning out to be?
 
So now they saying the frame is bent.I thought this was about body mounting points.If the frame is bent how was the chassis deemed "passed inspection" at the track.Sounds like a big pile of crap this is turning out to be?

Of course this Nascar and this is a conspiracy so that JJ wins #5!;)
 
Of course this Nascar and this is a conspiracy so that JJ wins #5!;)

The problem I havve is that even if NASCAR was proven wrong by every expert on the planet they will never admit it. They can't admit they are flawed and thats jacked up.
 
:beerbang: Right ..and what have they done with those late race cautions???
 
RCR loses appeal to overturn Bowyer penalty
By The Associated Press
September 30, 2010
07:42 AM EDT
CONCORD, N.C. -- A NASCAR committee denied Richard Childress Racing's appeal to have Clint Bowyer's championship-ending penalty reversed, and the team owner vowed Wednesday to fight the decision to the organization's highest level.

The NASCAR-appointed panel of former driver Lyn St. James, former crew chief Waddell Wilson and former USAC chairman John Capels voted unanimously to uphold Bowyer's penalty at 150 points with six-week suspensions to crew chief Shane Wilson and car chief Chad Haney as well as a $150,000 fine to Wilson.

Childress said last week that the car was knocked out of compliance by contact from another race car or from a wrecker that pushed the car after it ran out of fuel following Bowyer's victory at New Hampshire on Sept. 19. Childress said that NASCAR ruled that the way the body sat on the frame was too high in the left rear by 130-thousandths of an inch -- 60-thousandths of an inch beyond the 70-thousandths of an inch tolerance teams are permitted in that area.

"We know without a shadow of a doubt that that car left [our shop for the New Hampshire race] within the tolerances, well within the tolerances," Childress said last week.

Childress on Wednesday emerged from NASCAR's research and development center after a nearly 5-hour hearing fighting the 150-point penalty.

"After so many hours of whatever you want to call this, the ruling stood," the team owner said. "I gave them the check and an appeal notice to the commissioner. We're very disappointed."

Childress said he paid the $150,000 fine issued to Wilson, and made a formal request to appeal Wednesday's decision to NASCAR chief appellate officer John Middlebrook, a former General Motors executive.

Sprint Cup Series director John Darby said it was a fair hearing. He said he answered many questions from the panel after presenting how NASCAR came to make the decision on the penalty.

"They're very informed people," Darby said. "And they were definitely on track to collect all the information they could before they rendered a decision. ... I think [the appeals] are all fair.

"They're very tense. You get nervous when you go to one of these deals. It's not just a mocked-up party. It's serious. You have to be very exact, you have to be very precise, you have to be very direct, you have to be very honest."

Bowyer and his RCR team were penalized last Wednesday, three days after his win in the opening race for the Chase for the Sprint Cup championship. The victory ended an 88-race winless streak and pushed Bowyer from 12th to second in the standings, 35 points behind Denny Hamlin.

The penalty dropped Bowyer to 12th in the standings, and he currently trails Hamlin by 235 points with eight Chase races remaining.

RCR has maintained that when Bowyer ran out of gas at the end of the New Hampshire race, a tow truck had to push him to Victory Lane and the contact caused the damage that contributed to a failed inspection.

Childress brought an accident reconstruction specialist to the hearing, but Dr. Charles Manning of Accident Reconstruction Analysis in Raleigh said the three-member appeals panel was not interested in his presentation.

"We ran into it, we pushed into it with a wrecker that was the same as Loudon," said Manning, who joined Childress, Wilson and RCR competition director Scott Miller in their presentation. "We measured it. ... It tells you clearly it wasn't out of specification before he burned out, ran out of gas and then got pushed.

"That's exactly what caused [it]. We gave them scientific reports and we testify all the time and they paid no attention, which says something about what was going on in my opinion."

Childress made his presentation to the appeals committee, then moved to a conference room while NASCAR made its case. During the lengthy delay, he posted a sign on the window of a conference room asking reporters outside to "bring pizza." He later tapped on the window to point out he had updated the sign with "and Budweiser."

Childress could be seen with his feet up on the conference room table, and when a pizza delivery driver showed up with four pies, he opened the door of the R&D Center to let him in.

But the relaxed mood quickly changed when the RCR group was called out of the room. He exited the building minutes later, clearly angry with the decision.

"We have shown proof that the wrecker knocked the back of the car up," Childress said.

The panel did not agree, and noted that car was actually high in both the left and right rear.

"[RCR] presented an accident reconstruction specialist to demonstrate that a wrecker might bend up the left rear strut in the trunk under certain conditions," the panel wrote in its statement. "The specialists, however, indicated that such an occurrence would strictly affect the left rear because of the matchup between the wrecker pushbar and the angle of the race car's rear bumper.

"He went on to say that the corresponding right rear measurements should not be affected, in his view, nor the frame member deformed as a team representative had alleged. ... Claims that the wrecker caused the infraction were negated by the telemetry from the car which did not show a sharp impact spike; by the fact that the rear template still fit snugly across the entire rear of the car; by a visual inspection of the rear of the car which showed nothing of note in the way of damage; and a visual review of the videotape of postrace assistance tendered by the wrecker which appeared as relatively gentle pushing.

"Of significance to the Panel were some additional facts which came to light during the hearing. Particularly of note were the facts that both rear hard points, left and right, were high, and that the rear of the body was offset on the frame. The Panel found that the penalties were consistent for infractions of this magnitude."

Manning, who said he's been in the accident reconstruction business 45 years, said he recreated a tow truck pushing in the back of a Cup Series car to show how it could have damaged the frame.

NASCAR officials have refused to talk about specifics of the infraction because of the appeal but have said they do not believe contact from the wrecker had anything to do with the car being out of compliance. RCR was warned that the No. 33 car Bowyer raced at Richmond was close to being illegal.

The appeals committee has not overturned a penalty in any of the seven appeals it has heard concerning national series teams this year. According to NASCAR, in the past decade there have been 132 appeals heard:
• 92 decisions were upheld;
• 28 penalties were reduced;
• 10 penalties were overturned;
• 2 penalties were increased.

No cases this year have been taken to Middlebrook, who is in the first year in his role as chief appellate officer. Middlebrook replaced Charles Strang, whose title was "commissioner."

Middlebrook spent 49 years at GM before retiring in 2008 from his position as vice president for global sales. Middlebrook was involved in General Motors' NASCAR programs and drove the pace car during the pace laps for the 2008 Allstate 400 at Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

Wilson and Haney likely will be permitted by Middlebrook to continue in their roles this weekend at Kansas Speedway pending a decision by Middlebrook, Darby said.

Middlebrook will get a transcript of the appeal from Wednesday and then make a decision of who gets to testify before him at his hearing. He has not set a date, but NASCAR vice president of competition Robin Pemberton speculated it would be early next week.

Sporting News Wire Service contributed to this report.
 
Hey, if Lyn St. James says it was illegal and agrees with the penalty, I'm behind her. BTW, I'd love to be behind her. :)
 
pants-falling-down.gif
 
RCR analyst, none to happy.....

The reconstruction analyst who testified that Clint Bowyer's New Hampshire Sprint Cup car was knocked out of tolerance by a wrecker labeled NASCAR's arguments against his findings as nonsense. Dr. Charles Manning of Raleigh, N.C.-based Accident Reconstruction Analysis said two tests of a wrecker pushing a car set up the same as Bowyer's winning #33 in the Chase opener showed the left rear end moved upward 40 thousandths of one inch. Testifying Wednesday on behalf of Richard Childress Racing, Manning told the National Stock Car Racing Commission that heard the appeal that his scientific study "clearly" explains the 39,000th of an inch NASCAR told RCR officials the car was beyond tolerances.
"They came out this morning and claimed it was negated by the telemetry which didn't show a very sharp impact," Manning said Thursday. "We didn't have any sharp impact, either. We pushed it easily. They said the visual inspection of the car showed nothing in the way of damage. Well, after we got through testing none of the cars showed anything of note or damage. They said the visual inspection of the postrace push showed they pushed very gentle. We pushed more gentle ... between six and 10 miles per hour. So what they said was a bunch of malarkey." Manning said the only way he can have more exact data than what he collected during the reconstruction at Charlotte Motor Speedway using a duplicate of Bowyer's car and a wrecker similar to the one at New Hampshire is to inspect the car in violation. He said NASCAR has not let him or RCR officials look at the car. "All we get from them is the stuff from behind closed doors," said Manning, whose company helped CMS win its case when a pedestrian bridge collapsed after a race in 2000. "I've been doing this for 45 years. When we go to court I've got photos and measurements. We haven't seen any photos. We haven't seen any measurements." NASCAR officials said they can't release specific data used to defend their case until the final appeal is heard.
 
So..... The appeal of the appeal is today. It will be the first ruling for NASCAR's new chief appellate officer, John Middlebrook.

Any predictions? :rolleyes:
 
So..... The appeal of the appeal is today. It will be the first ruling for NASCAR's new chief appellate officer, John Middlebrook.

Any predictions? :rolleyes:

He'll uphold the original ruling and the outcome of the first appeal.
 
First it was the quarter was too high by 60/1000, then the body mounting points were off, now the frame rails are bent.


He'll uphold the original ruling and the outcome of the first appeal so he can keep his job....

:fixed:

just read now it's only 39/1,000:rolleyes:
 
First it was the quarter was too high by 60/1000, then the body mounting points were off, now the frame rails are bent.

just read now it's only 39/1,000:rolleyes:

I've noticed it keeps changing. It's like they can't decide or don't know just how off it was.
 
I don't know about the rest of you , but i find this entire incident really odd. It appears to me that something really strange is going on, maybe it's the conspiracy theorist in me. Just seems strange now that the measurements have changed......just this whole thing doesn't seem right.:eek:
 
I don't know about the rest of you , but i find this entire incident really odd. It appears to me that something really strange is going on, maybe it's the conspiracy theorist in me. Just seems strange now that the measurements have changed......just this whole thing doesn't seem right.:eek:

I guess that's what happens when we hear all of these stories second hand. They didn't release any of these numbers through NASCAR PR. RCR and RCR's
accident reconstruction analyst are the only ones that have released information. I think that could be part of their problem..... I don't think RCR is all on the same page.
 
So..... A reduction in $ and the the six to a four race suspension.

Following an appeal hearing earlier today in Concord, N.C., the National Stock Car Racing Chief Appellate Officer has upheld the penalty for the #33 Chevy in the NASCAR Sprint Cup Series, with the following revisions:
Crew chief Shane Wilson's fine has been reduced from $150,000 to $100,000 and Wilson and car chief Chad Haney's race suspensions have been lowered from six to four. Both are suspended from NASCAR until Nov. 3 and are on probation until Dec. 31.
The loss of 150 championship owner and driver points remains intact.
 
I guess that's what happens when we hear all of these stories second hand. They didn't release any of these numbers through NASCAR PR. RCR and RCR's
accident reconstruction analyst are the only ones that have released information. I think that could be part of their problem..... I don't think RCR is all on the same page.

That is the way I understand it. Nascar has a policy that they will not discuss an infraction until the appeal process is complete.Since they have said nothing , we are faced with trying to piece together gossip and speculation. Obviously there are going to be inconsistancies.
 
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