B
W
Ward Burton
Guest
I dont know wheather to beleive him or not... 
B
bowtie
Guest
did you read the whole article?
G
Gollum
Guest
sounds about right to me. 
W
Ward Burton
Guest
Yes but this really convinces me Bowtie...
J
j ozzman 5000
Guest
can't be any worse then mikey throwing a piece of scrap metal out from under his car to blow jr's tire at the 2002 daytona 500
W
Ward Burton
Guest
That actually happened though!
S
sss24racing
Guest
97forever
Team Owner
Pretty funny.Ironic,but funny.
Encouraging to see that Biffle is already being mentioned as a beneficiary of Nascar's manipulations.After the whole CTS title they stole from him and all!
And by the way:Mark Martin IS the real 1990 WC champion.
Encouraging to see that Biffle is already being mentioned as a beneficiary of Nascar's manipulations.After the whole CTS title they stole from him and all!
And by the way:Mark Martin IS the real 1990 WC champion.
B
bowtie
Guest
I've been waiting on you 97.
this BUD'S for you
this BUD'S for you
H
HardScrabble
Guest
Never felt that fixing a race was near possible, look at Daytona this year. Sometimes calls go for a driver ans sometimes against.
Reckon in the case here at hand it all depends on which side of the fence you fall on with the non-call on Jr's pass. If you think it incorrect, it aided and abetted Jr's run. If ya find it correct then the race ended the way the race ended.
For the most part non-calls are the best calls. Not always, there is no always in this sort of deal. The yellow line rule as the author of the article said is a judgement call all the way. It didn't start out that way back in 2001 when it was initiated, the rule at that time was if ya go below the line it a fooul. You may recall Tony ran afoul of this ruling in its first few races. He was royally ticked and justifiably so, he ran below the line at Daytona to avoid causing a wreck, but it was against the rule as stated at that time. NASCAR put him back in the field to the end of the lead lap since the foul was near the end of the race and Tony ignored the black flag..........
Then NASCAR re-interpreted the deal and told everyone if you are forced below the line it is a different deal, they made room for the forcing car to possibly get the penalty.........that will lead to more judgement calls which will be questioned. But the intenet is likely proper, drivers will use every little edge they can lay hands on with the original rule it became a game to force the passer to break the rule, dangerous. And the beat goes on.
Seems to me ya gotta go back to the "spirit" of the rule. Do not point your car down on the apron to make a pass. As long as such a rule exists it will remain a judgement call as to whether the apron was used by a driver to make a pass or if in the course of the pass circumstances put the driver there. Not everyone will ever agree with the deal under these circumstances.
So should the rule be scrapped and the entire track and apron be declared racing territory? Tricky at best, deadly at worst. Glad I do not have to make the decision, nor make the calls during the race. You can't win in that position and someone will send you hate mail no matter which way you play it..............
On second thought for a few hundred grand a year..............I can handle some hate mail, matter of fact I can handle a lot of hate mail!!!
Reckon in the case here at hand it all depends on which side of the fence you fall on with the non-call on Jr's pass. If you think it incorrect, it aided and abetted Jr's run. If ya find it correct then the race ended the way the race ended.
For the most part non-calls are the best calls. Not always, there is no always in this sort of deal. The yellow line rule as the author of the article said is a judgement call all the way. It didn't start out that way back in 2001 when it was initiated, the rule at that time was if ya go below the line it a fooul. You may recall Tony ran afoul of this ruling in its first few races. He was royally ticked and justifiably so, he ran below the line at Daytona to avoid causing a wreck, but it was against the rule as stated at that time. NASCAR put him back in the field to the end of the lead lap since the foul was near the end of the race and Tony ignored the black flag..........
Then NASCAR re-interpreted the deal and told everyone if you are forced below the line it is a different deal, they made room for the forcing car to possibly get the penalty.........that will lead to more judgement calls which will be questioned. But the intenet is likely proper, drivers will use every little edge they can lay hands on with the original rule it became a game to force the passer to break the rule, dangerous. And the beat goes on.
Seems to me ya gotta go back to the "spirit" of the rule. Do not point your car down on the apron to make a pass. As long as such a rule exists it will remain a judgement call as to whether the apron was used by a driver to make a pass or if in the course of the pass circumstances put the driver there. Not everyone will ever agree with the deal under these circumstances.
So should the rule be scrapped and the entire track and apron be declared racing territory? Tricky at best, deadly at worst. Glad I do not have to make the decision, nor make the calls during the race. You can't win in that position and someone will send you hate mail no matter which way you play it..............
On second thought for a few hundred grand a year..............I can handle some hate mail, matter of fact I can handle a lot of hate mail!!!
Whizzer
Gig'em
Once again, the call was a decision of inconsistency, with the exception this time it appeared partiality was shown by NASCAR, and with good reason.
The problem lies in one thing and one thing only, NASCAR drives it's decisions with a "who's on first" management style. When the yellow line rule was implemented, NASCAR should have foreseen some scenarios like the one possibility of drivers being forced below the yellow line. In this case, buying the assertion by NASCAR, Earnhardt was forced below the line should have resulted in a penalty for Kenseth as the offending driver. But that did not happen either. This lack of a "no-call" and the subsequent ruling of no foul at all is what makes the situation stink in the eyes of many observers.
One way to remedy the situation is to either eliminate the "yellow line rule" or make it cut and dried, creating no question of "right or wrong".
There are other possibilities, one being, cutting slits in the apron below the yellow line. This would mildly upset the car but not enough to cause it to lose control, or, paint lines on the track to show the areas where the second lane car is considered to be forcing the low grove car out of bounds. The result there would be a definite ruling and a penalty issued.
Until NASCAR establishes a formal, definitive set of rules, every driver will continue to push the limits. And controversy will be king. But isn't that what makes the series exciting to many fans??
The problem lies in one thing and one thing only, NASCAR drives it's decisions with a "who's on first" management style. When the yellow line rule was implemented, NASCAR should have foreseen some scenarios like the one possibility of drivers being forced below the yellow line. In this case, buying the assertion by NASCAR, Earnhardt was forced below the line should have resulted in a penalty for Kenseth as the offending driver. But that did not happen either. This lack of a "no-call" and the subsequent ruling of no foul at all is what makes the situation stink in the eyes of many observers.
One way to remedy the situation is to either eliminate the "yellow line rule" or make it cut and dried, creating no question of "right or wrong".
There are other possibilities, one being, cutting slits in the apron below the yellow line. This would mildly upset the car but not enough to cause it to lose control, or, paint lines on the track to show the areas where the second lane car is considered to be forcing the low grove car out of bounds. The result there would be a definite ruling and a penalty issued.
Until NASCAR establishes a formal, definitive set of rules, every driver will continue to push the limits. And controversy will be king. But isn't that what makes the series exciting to many fans??
H
HardScrabble
Guest
Ya mean kinda like the iron clad, specifically written and spelled out, detailed rules that F1 uses?
Check out the latest on the Brazil finish for those folks.
Or maybe like the yellow flag rule for the IRL folks, like at Indy last year.
Racing has always and will always have controversy, it is part of any competitive endeavour. Rules can't and will never allow for every circumstance and in the final analysis a human factor will always come into play.
Check out the latest on the Brazil finish for those folks.
Or maybe like the yellow flag rule for the IRL folks, like at Indy last year.
Racing has always and will always have controversy, it is part of any competitive endeavour. Rules can't and will never allow for every circumstance and in the final analysis a human factor will always come into play.
G
Gollum
Guest
Vince MCman and Helton are half brothers. lol
barelypure
Spectator
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2002
- Messages
- 6,695
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There is a solution to all of this. If NASCAR is intent on having such a rule then simply replace the yellow line with a 4 inch curb. Then if the driver goes over the curb, well let's just say getting back on the track without tearing off the front air dam would be adventurous to say the least. The curb would tend to weed out a few cars and there would be no decision to make. If they can sucessfully negotiate the curb over and back then all is fair.
Or, I suppose you could just put rumble strips down there that would slow them down without wrecking the car. Maybe?
Or, I suppose you could just put rumble strips down there that would slow them down without wrecking the car. Maybe?
H
hooty3
Guest
hmm..thats the funniest way i ever saw Mark Martin spelled on that trophy then.....Originally posted by 97forever@Apr 11 2003, 05:34 AM
Pretty funny.Ironic,but funny.
Encouraging to see that Biffle is already being mentioned as a beneficiary of Nascar's manipulations.After the whole CTS title they stole from him and all!
And by the way:Mark Martin IS the real 1990 WC champion.
D
DJFan
Guest
I like the curb idea but I think I would rather see strips of nails, that way there's no chance that car will re-enter the racing groove and, if unlucky enough to do so, surely wouldnt advance at all! Should help to get rid of that "lets make it 4 wide a risk half the drivers on the tracks life" attitude!
Kel
Kel
racer8
Team Owner
Blah Blah Blah. Nascar said ok I say ok. leave it alone.
How many of you have seen a judgement call in the NFL and just had to live with it weather you liked it or not. some say good call some say bad. just depends which side you're on.
nobody will ever agree so let it go as they called it.
Beers on me.
How many of you have seen a judgement call in the NFL and just had to live with it weather you liked it or not. some say good call some say bad. just depends which side you're on.
nobody will ever agree so let it go as they called it.
Beers on me.
F
forZ
Guest
favoritism doesn't equal fix...
a fix is when the outcome is already known, which would be practically impossible in winston cup.
favoritism does seem to happen, however. when a rule is applied one way for some drivers but a different way for other drivers, such as the yellow line incident, or when one team has to pack up early for not meeting the minimum hight requirement after qualifying yet we've seen race winners keep their victories even though their car was too low.
when dodge first got into nascar and they hadn't won yet, nascar determined they were at a disadvantage and let them change the front end, but took that equalizer/advantage away as soon as they won one race...i've never understood how that was anything other than helping dodge get their first win, if nascar felt dodges were at a disadvantage with the old nose, why did they make them go all the way back to the original nose after they won? if they felt that they were just too generous, why didn't they cut back just a bit? in essence they said 'the original nose is a disadvantage, but now that you've won a race we don't care if you have a disadvantage.'
more bad judgement calls...penalizing the leader of the race for pulling next to a slower car after the driver spun his wheels...nascar enforcing a gentlemen's agreement and giving 2 drivers a lap back...nascar letting a car go aroung for several laps with big pieces of metal hanging off the car at about tire level, until a yellow let him take care of it without losing a lap...
but nascar's stupidity is bigger than their inconsistancy and favoritism. one of the problems many drivers, especially the bigger ones, complain about is that the driver's compartment is too cramped...another thing that many fans and drivers don't like is aero-push...yet another thing is the restrictor plates are too restrictive and take away throttle response. there are remedies for these problems, such as making the 'greenhouses' bigger and changing the shape of the cars to lower the amount of downforce generated...which might not make aero-push and restrictor plates go away, but would let mechical grip come into play more and allow for bigger openings on the plates. but when nascar decided to switch towards more common templates, and every team had to hang new bodies, they made the front ends even more slanted and didn't do anything to create more room for the drivers. they had a chance to improve safety and competition and blew it.
there's talk that next year they are gonna take dates away from some tracks, citing that poor attendance and a growing fan base mean that the dates are going to have to be shuffled...well, if ticket prices weren't so freaking high the existing tracks wouldn't have such a problem selling out. some people might argue that lowering the ticket prices would lead to less money, but even if the fact that more people would be spending slightly less money to see the races would lead to lower revenues from ticket sales, concession sales and souvenir sales would increase, advertising rates would increase, and the amount of money the hosting cities would generate from services and taxes would increase. there is no doubt that some of the dates need to change around, but there is no really good reason to make some of the best tracks on the circuit one race a year tracks just to run more races at 1.5 mile tri-ovals.
now, what does all this other stuff have to do with the yellow line rule, or fixes in general? it's simple. if nascar was just screwing up every now and then, or on just one or two things, i would be able to just accept it. but the pattern of inconsistancy and the amount of stuff they've been screwing up, along with the heavily biased tv broadcasts, finally made this fan throw in the towel and convert to being an irl fan.
how many of the new fans will continue being fans once they start seeing bad patterns emerging? nascar is screwing up by putting new fans and expansion before the old, loyal fans.
...anyways, the ultimate fix for the yellow line rule would be for the competitors to start obeying it 100%...if nobody went below the yellow line for any reason, and instead just hit anybody that came down into them, there would be so many wrecks that nascar would have to do something...oh wait, i'm being absurd...nascar wants the wrecks, which is why they would never consider giving the roof spoilers another shot after one "boring" race, yet continue to use a rules package that tends to result in a 20+ car pile-up every time they play race at dega and tona. the supposed purpose of the rule is to make racing safer, but it gives the drivers a way to force someone to either back off or be penalized when they block them...and leads to subjective rulings by nascar which do more harm then good by sending mixed signals to the fans and more importantly the drivers as to what they're supposed to do when they want to avoid a wreck.
**for those of you who might visit other boards, i'm also known as 4z (i had to have 3 or more letters here, so i used forZ, which is really the same thing and not a name change), and used to be known as 4pontiac...and ChevyFanvsDE&JG a long time ago before i found out how bad of a problem bashing was...for those that might not have crossed paths with me before, i've been watching nascar for most of my almost 30 years on this planet (i went to my first stock car race the first saturday after i left the newborn nursery, or so i am told), but threw in the towel after the 'dega race, for many reasons, not just the one bad call. i'm addicted to racing, but i've been upset more than happy by the end of the many hours of nascar i've watched each week this year, and i've been critical of nascar as a sanctioning body for many years. i still like the drivers, and i'll be following nascar for that reason, but i'm not watching qualifying, practice, happy hour, busch, busch practice, and the cup race every weekend like i used to...last weekend i saw about 30 laps total, including the last lap (after missing laps 491-499), and i somehow survived...when i got to work and i told a coworker i didn't watch the whole race, he said he could tell because i wasn't upset.
there is often skeptism when someone new comes in to a board...but i'm sure there are many people here that 'know' me (cyber-speaking), including tiny...i came over to this set of boards for the irl board, but figured i'd see what's up on all of them.**
a fix is when the outcome is already known, which would be practically impossible in winston cup.
favoritism does seem to happen, however. when a rule is applied one way for some drivers but a different way for other drivers, such as the yellow line incident, or when one team has to pack up early for not meeting the minimum hight requirement after qualifying yet we've seen race winners keep their victories even though their car was too low.
when dodge first got into nascar and they hadn't won yet, nascar determined they were at a disadvantage and let them change the front end, but took that equalizer/advantage away as soon as they won one race...i've never understood how that was anything other than helping dodge get their first win, if nascar felt dodges were at a disadvantage with the old nose, why did they make them go all the way back to the original nose after they won? if they felt that they were just too generous, why didn't they cut back just a bit? in essence they said 'the original nose is a disadvantage, but now that you've won a race we don't care if you have a disadvantage.'
more bad judgement calls...penalizing the leader of the race for pulling next to a slower car after the driver spun his wheels...nascar enforcing a gentlemen's agreement and giving 2 drivers a lap back...nascar letting a car go aroung for several laps with big pieces of metal hanging off the car at about tire level, until a yellow let him take care of it without losing a lap...
but nascar's stupidity is bigger than their inconsistancy and favoritism. one of the problems many drivers, especially the bigger ones, complain about is that the driver's compartment is too cramped...another thing that many fans and drivers don't like is aero-push...yet another thing is the restrictor plates are too restrictive and take away throttle response. there are remedies for these problems, such as making the 'greenhouses' bigger and changing the shape of the cars to lower the amount of downforce generated...which might not make aero-push and restrictor plates go away, but would let mechical grip come into play more and allow for bigger openings on the plates. but when nascar decided to switch towards more common templates, and every team had to hang new bodies, they made the front ends even more slanted and didn't do anything to create more room for the drivers. they had a chance to improve safety and competition and blew it.
there's talk that next year they are gonna take dates away from some tracks, citing that poor attendance and a growing fan base mean that the dates are going to have to be shuffled...well, if ticket prices weren't so freaking high the existing tracks wouldn't have such a problem selling out. some people might argue that lowering the ticket prices would lead to less money, but even if the fact that more people would be spending slightly less money to see the races would lead to lower revenues from ticket sales, concession sales and souvenir sales would increase, advertising rates would increase, and the amount of money the hosting cities would generate from services and taxes would increase. there is no doubt that some of the dates need to change around, but there is no really good reason to make some of the best tracks on the circuit one race a year tracks just to run more races at 1.5 mile tri-ovals.
now, what does all this other stuff have to do with the yellow line rule, or fixes in general? it's simple. if nascar was just screwing up every now and then, or on just one or two things, i would be able to just accept it. but the pattern of inconsistancy and the amount of stuff they've been screwing up, along with the heavily biased tv broadcasts, finally made this fan throw in the towel and convert to being an irl fan.
how many of the new fans will continue being fans once they start seeing bad patterns emerging? nascar is screwing up by putting new fans and expansion before the old, loyal fans.
...anyways, the ultimate fix for the yellow line rule would be for the competitors to start obeying it 100%...if nobody went below the yellow line for any reason, and instead just hit anybody that came down into them, there would be so many wrecks that nascar would have to do something...oh wait, i'm being absurd...nascar wants the wrecks, which is why they would never consider giving the roof spoilers another shot after one "boring" race, yet continue to use a rules package that tends to result in a 20+ car pile-up every time they play race at dega and tona. the supposed purpose of the rule is to make racing safer, but it gives the drivers a way to force someone to either back off or be penalized when they block them...and leads to subjective rulings by nascar which do more harm then good by sending mixed signals to the fans and more importantly the drivers as to what they're supposed to do when they want to avoid a wreck.
**for those of you who might visit other boards, i'm also known as 4z (i had to have 3 or more letters here, so i used forZ, which is really the same thing and not a name change), and used to be known as 4pontiac...and ChevyFanvsDE&JG a long time ago before i found out how bad of a problem bashing was...for those that might not have crossed paths with me before, i've been watching nascar for most of my almost 30 years on this planet (i went to my first stock car race the first saturday after i left the newborn nursery, or so i am told), but threw in the towel after the 'dega race, for many reasons, not just the one bad call. i'm addicted to racing, but i've been upset more than happy by the end of the many hours of nascar i've watched each week this year, and i've been critical of nascar as a sanctioning body for many years. i still like the drivers, and i'll be following nascar for that reason, but i'm not watching qualifying, practice, happy hour, busch, busch practice, and the cup race every weekend like i used to...last weekend i saw about 30 laps total, including the last lap (after missing laps 491-499), and i somehow survived...when i got to work and i told a coworker i didn't watch the whole race, he said he could tell because i wasn't upset.
there is often skeptism when someone new comes in to a board...but i'm sure there are many people here that 'know' me (cyber-speaking), including tiny...i came over to this set of boards for the irl board, but figured i'd see what's up on all of them.**
M
Mopardh9
Guest
Hey forz you made a lot of valid points, i agree Nascar needs to be overhauled, it is trying to attract the "newbies" like you said and not paying attention to the tried and true fans that have been around for 30 or more years. Those fans know what is up....so to speak and eventually will get fed up enough so that they stop going to races. Sadly until the revenues decrease dramatically, Nascar won't do anything to solve all the "obvious" problems.
G
gordon24fan
Guest
Welcome forZ
Whizzer
Gig'em
Agreed. Up to a point, Hardscrabble. But there is contention to be had when the decisions are made under the existing yellow line ruling and one or two adjustments to a simple rule might eliminate the controversy and the claims of partiality to any one driver.
Any observer of the Talledega race must concede there were more close passes and questionably safe manuvers made at other locations on the racing surface that potentially endangered more drivers than were put in harms way by the questionable pass Earnhardt, Junior made below the yellow line.
The yellow line rule is ambigous at best and to leave it unattended in it's current form is opening the door to greater criticism of NASCAR.
If this were someone other than Earnhardt or Gordon would the chorus have been as loud???? Doubtful, since both are the most severely criticized drivers in the series. Whether they are right or they are wrong.