Was Mark robbed?

buckaroo

buckaroo

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After the race, I tuned into the Wind Tunnel on Speed and of course, the controversy roared there as to whether NASCAR should have have thrown the caution. When they showed the incident in slow motion, it was clear that when the carnage began, Harvick was in front of Mark. It was after that that Mark went back around Kevin, and then Kevin moving back in front.

Who was in front and when it happened will forever be a moot point because the officials have made their call and Kevin won the race. Also, it would depend on the reaction time of the person throwing the switch as to who was in front. What I see as the boiling point is that Mark was and still is a sentimental favorite these days and of course, that enters into the question. Clearly, those big fans of Harvick will not question the call, but it doesn't take big fans of Mark to question it.

In many ways, it was a shame that the race ended this way, but each and every time that a race has ended on a caution, I've heard nothing but catcalls from the fans. They want to see the cars battling to the end. I say that had the two cars involved been Kyle Busch and Kevin Harvick, all of this wouldn't be nearly so vocal from the fans.
 
I'm a MM fan...but he botched it. He could have won if he blocked Harvick or put him in the wall.

He won't have that chance again.
 
Well, if you're a MM fan, you know that Mark wouldn't put someone into the wall intentionally. He needed a pusher and his pusher spun, so it really was out of his hands at that point.
 
Well I agree that rough driving isn't in MM's nature - but he could have done it just this once....and he'd be a DT500 winner.
 
Tony1930 said:
Well I agree that rough driving isn't in MM's nature - but he could have done it just this once....and he'd be a DT500 winner.
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and he would have lost respect from a lot of people.....
 
i dont care who wins between harvick and martin...but Nascar needs to be consistent...right now the sport is a joke.

When Kyle Busch spun, the caution should have been thrown, thus freezing the field instead of letting them race back to the line.....its a safety issue...Nascar supposeldly killed racing back to the line a few years ago.

if you remember Jr lost a race because of the same thing a few years ago at dega....Gordon won because there was a wreck behind them, the yellow came out right before Jr passed Gordon...thus freezing the field and Gordon winning.

why wasnt the same process followed this time?

rules are rules.....everyone needs to follow them and that includes Nascar.

bad call by nascar.
 
This Buds For Me said:
if you remember Jr lost a race because of the same thing a few years ago at dega....Gordon won because there was a wreck behind them, the yellow came out right before Jr passed Gordon...thus freezing the field and Gordon winning.

why wasnt the same process followed this time?

rules are rules.....everyone needs to follow them and that includes Nascar.

bad call by nascar.
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And, if you'll remember the world almost ended when Nascar made that call. Look at the millions and millions of people who burned down entire cities and drowned little puppies because their Lil'E didn't win. You didn't really expect Nascar to make that same mistake again did you.
They were roundly criticized then and this time they go the other way and they are still being criticized. Maybe its the fans that need to decide how they want the call made regardless of who is affected.
The call, IMO, was exactly right. The white flag had been taken and the leaders would not be exposed to the carnage behind them, so let'em race to see who wins.
 
barelypure said:
And, if you'll remember the world almost ended when Nascar made that call. Look at the millions and millions of people who burned down entire cities and drowned little puppies because their Lil'E didn't win. You didn't really expect Nascar to make that same mistake again did you.
They were roundly criticized then and this time they go the other way and they are still being criticized. Maybe its the fans that need to decide how they want the call made regardless of who is affected.
The call, IMO, was exactly right. The white flag had been taken and the leaders would not be exposed to the carnage behind them, so let'em race to see who wins.
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so your ok with Nascar making rules on the fly?
 
This Buds For Me said:
When Kyle Busch spun, the caution should have been thrown, thus freezing the field instead of letting them race back to the line.....its a safety issue...Nascar supposeldly killed racing back to the line a few years ago.
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In this instance, how would have freezing the field changed anything with the wrecks? It wouldn't have. The track was blocked as soon as Bush got into Kenseth. Throwing the caution at that point wouldn't have prevented the other cars from getting involved.

I'm glad they let the leaders race back to the line. I hope they continue to do this.
 
This Buds For Me said:
so your ok with Nascar making rules on the fly?
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Since when in it's existence has it been any other way?
If they start having hard and fast rules then Lil'E don't get his special plate and jet fuel. (They really need to look into what's wrong with DEI. Or, maybe Teresa is getting back at Lil'E for wanting control. But, man he really sucked).

No, the rules need to be consistent regardless of who is affected. And, in this case I think they got it right. A caution really doesn't save anyone. I mean if you're far enough back that a caution keeps you from running over someone or getting run over yourself and you still get caught up in the wreck can you really put the blame on the lack of the caution? Or your own stupidity for racing that way.

Had the wreck been where the leaders would have to drive thru the wreck then they throw the caution and the race is over. Then you go to the scoring loops and video to determine the order of finish. And, I don't have a problem with that.

The problem is the fans complained about the Lil'E/Jeff finish and now they complain about the Harvick/Martin finish. One scenario has to be right and the other wrong, doesn't it? And, if you're going to choose one, then which?

Maybe we need a poll.
If there is a wreck after turn 4 and before the FL on the last lap should there be a caution flag or should they be allowed to race to the line? Or, somehow worded...
 
You have the same hidden infatuation with Dale,Jr as Besty does with Robby...

Its ok to come on out and let us know your real feelings. Even though he didn't do too well this past Speedweeks, you can still find comfort in your lifesize cutout.
 
Barelypure, I agree. I like Mark Martin alot and was pulling for him (until I saw the 29 side-by-side). :D

Too often with RP racces, everyone complains that they don't finish the race under the green. The fans would've wanted a green flag finish to the Daytona 500.

NASCAR can't win, no matter what it does, so you know what, whatever. That was a race finish right out of hollywood (remember Talladega Nights)?
 
fergy1370 said:
You have the same hidden infatuation with Dale,Jr as Besty does with Robby...

Its ok to come on out and let us know your real feelings. Even though he didn't do too well this past Speedweeks, you can still find comfort in your lifesize cutout.
Click to expand...

Hey, I'd love to have a cutout. What I want is the Schrader Lil' Debbie cutout. That would be cool.

I'll be at LMS Thursday, maybe picking out my seats for the May race. Any good advice as to what will get me closer to Lil'E... :D
 
This Buds For Me said:
i dont care who wins between harvick and martin...but Nascar needs to be consistent...right now the sport is a joke.

When Kyle Busch spun, the caution should have been thrown, thus freezing the field instead of letting them race back to the line.....its a safety issue...Nascar supposeldly killed racing back to the line a few years ago.

if you remember Jr lost a race because of the same thing a few years ago at dega....Gordon won because there was a wreck behind them, the yellow came out right before Jr passed Gordon...thus freezing the field and Gordon winning.

why wasnt the same process followed this time?

rules are rules.....everyone needs to follow them and that includes Nascar.

bad call by nascar.
Click to expand...
I agree with your post. The point is not who won but that Nascar did not follow their own rules. If they are going to have a rule of no racing to green then it has to be applied across the board otherwisw the drivers will have to give it hell for leather under most circumstances.
 
I kind of thought Mark was jobbed a little bit. But, sadly it didn't really faze me much. I love Mark Martin and would have loved to see him win more than anything, but nothing NASCAR does surprises me anymore.

They have applied the rules so unevenly over the years that it has become (sadly do) much like professional boxing. It is tough to get too emotionally involved when it seems biased at best and rigged at worst.
 
Bottom line is - if you follow nascar's "rules"...Mark Martin wins the race....period.
 
barelypure said:
Since when in it's existence has it been any other way?
If they start having hard and fast rules then Lil'E don't get his special plate and jet fuel. (They really need to look into what's wrong with DEI. Or, maybe Teresa is getting back at Lil'E for wanting control. But, man he really sucked).

No, the rules need to be consistent regardless of who is affected. And, in this case I think they got it right. A caution really doesn't save anyone. I mean if you're far enough back that a caution keeps you from running over someone or getting run over yourself and you still get caught up in the wreck can you really put the blame on the lack of the caution? Or your own stupidity for racing that way.

Had the wreck been where the leaders would have to drive thru the wreck then they throw the caution and the race is over. Then you go to the scoring loops and video to determine the order of finish. And, I don't have a problem with that.

The problem is the fans complained about the Lil'E/Jeff finish and now they complain about the Harvick/Martin finish. One scenario has to be right and the other wrong, doesn't it? And, if you're going to choose one, then which?

Maybe we need a poll.
If there is a wreck after turn 4 and before the FL on the last lap should there be a caution flag or should they be allowed to race to the line? Or, somehow worded...
Click to expand...

anytime i bring something up about Jr you seemed to get really pissed off. Whats the deal? I want fairness and clear rules....thats never existed in Nascar.

with the cheating scandals this weekend and the way the race ended...Nascar is leaving Daytona with Egg on their faces.

I dont care who won the race yesterday....nascar needs to call both races EXACTLY the same...unless they change the rules...have they changed the rules since then? no they havent....so why was the race that Gordon won and last night's race any different?

both times the leaders were in front of the wreck..yet one race they throw a caution and freeze the field, the other they dont.....thats a problem if you ask me.
 
Tony1930 said:
Bottom line is - if you follow nascar's "rules"...Mark Martin wins the race....period.
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i dont know if thats true either....if you throw the caution when Busch spins...Harvick might have still won.
 
It is an absolute FACT that Mark Martin was ahead of Harvick when the spin occured. I have it on tape.
 
This Buds For Me said:
and he would have lost respect from a lot of people.....
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Yes, he would have lost respect. I want MM to win, but not to be like some of the other drivers. I was just praying that Ky. Busch or Harvick didn't take him out. I can accept the win by Harvick this way. If Harvick had taken Mark out, well.................If Mark had taken Harvick out it would of been marred like Bristol 99 with Big E taking Terry out.
Bottom line, coming in second in a brand new car, brand new team, well Mark's talent speaks for itself.
 
He wasn't ahead at that time.

So you give the race to the guy in second??????????????????
 
MM was leading the flocking race when a car behind him spun. The caution goes out immediatly and the field is frozen. MM wins.
 
Did NASCAR Blow Finish?
In one of the wildest scenes in the history of this race, (Kevin) Harvick blew across the line inches ahead of (Mark) Martin and against a backdrop of smoke and flame. The yellow flag flew after the green. Controversy continued into the night as NASCAR struggled to explain why it didn't follow its own rules. Harvick won the Daytona 500 when NASCAR allowed the field to race back to green, a tradition thought to be outlawed after years of dangerous and legendary finishes. The carnage at the end came after three lead changes in the last seconds of a long day in racing history.

Martin, the sentimental favorite who has never won this race, believed the caution should've flown as he and Harvick fought to the line. A crash behind the leaders began as they entered the short chute out of the banked fourth corner. A caution at the point of the crash would've frozen the field and given Martin the win. He complained to his crew but didn't fight for it afterward. He seemed quite happy to finish second. "Nobody wants to hear a grown man cry," Martin said. "I'm not going to cry about it. This is what it is, and that's it. That's the end. Their decision. They made the decision, and that's what we're going live with."

Martin is probably the only driver in the race who would've reacted this way. Given the opportunity to rage into the night and throw the 2007 Daytona 500 finish into controversial infamy, he chose to bow aside graciously and allow Harvick to celebrate. The yellow flag flew after Harvick passed under the flagstand.

"When the 07 went sideways on the track, the yellow came out,'' NASCAR spokesman Ramsey Poston said afterward. "At that point the 29 was ahead of the 01 and declared the winner.''

That was a good explanation and all, except that's not what happened. Bowyer was upside down before the leaders took the checkered flag. The caution was thrown after that, technically, and according to NASCAR's own rules, after the race ended. The fact that there was an official margin of victory (.020 seconds) proves it. There is no margin of victory in a race that ends under caution. And since no caution flew before the end, NASCAR had no official account of the crash. In effect, it never happened.

The initial race results showed that all the cars involved were running at the end. That the entire viewing world saw the 07 burning and tumbling down the tri-oval with a sixth of the field spinning and crashing through the smoke and fire demonstrates that NASCAR's reasoning was as brazen as Martin's wasn't.

Harvick will apparently go down in history as the winner of the 49th Daytona 500 in part because NASCAR didn't follow its own rules and because Martin didn't want to cause more controversy.(roanoke.com)
 
Tony1930 said:
Look at the RACER35 picture and it's obvious.
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You're right, after the wreck was already in progress, Mark was ahead... Throwing the caution would've been a logistical nightmare. As close as they were for the final mile, it would've been tough to call. Then to settle all the other 30-something positions... Who was where at that absolute second.

I'd rather see them settle it at the line than wait 10 minutes for the winner and another 4 hours for the top 5. Again, I call it as I see it.

And if they threw the caution, I'm sure people would be complaining, still, so no matter what, NASCAR can't win.
 
kat2220 said:
Did NASCAR Blow Finish?
In one of the wildest scenes in the history of this race, (Kevin) Harvick blew across the line inches ahead of (Mark) Martin and against a backdrop of smoke and flame. The yellow flag flew after the green. Controversy continued into the night as NASCAR struggled to explain why it didn't follow its own rules. Harvick won the Daytona 500 when NASCAR allowed the field to race back to green, a tradition thought to be outlawed after years of dangerous and legendary finishes. The carnage at the end came after three lead changes in the last seconds of a long day in racing history.

Martin, the sentimental favorite who has never won this race, believed the caution should've flown as he and Harvick fought to the line. A crash behind the leaders began as they entered the short chute out of the banked fourth corner. A caution at the point of the crash would've frozen the field and given Martin the win. He complained to his crew but didn't fight for it afterward. He seemed quite happy to finish second. "Nobody wants to hear a grown man cry," Martin said. "I'm not going to cry about it. This is what it is, and that's it. That's the end. Their decision. They made the decision, and that's what we're going live with."

Martin is probably the only driver in the race who would've reacted this way. Given the opportunity to rage into the night and throw the 2007 Daytona 500 finish into controversial infamy, he chose to bow aside graciously and allow Harvick to celebrate. The yellow flag flew after Harvick passed under the flagstand.

"When the 07 went sideways on the track, the yellow came out,'' NASCAR spokesman Ramsey Poston said afterward. "At that point the 29 was ahead of the 01 and declared the winner.''

That was a good explanation and all, except that's not what happened. Bowyer was upside down before the leaders took the checkered flag. The caution was thrown after that, technically, and according to NASCAR's own rules, after the race ended. The fact that there was an official margin of victory (.020 seconds) proves it. There is no margin of victory in a race that ends under caution. And since no caution flew before the end, NASCAR had no official account of the crash. In effect, it never happened.

The initial race results showed that all the cars involved were running at the end. That the entire viewing world saw the 07 burning and tumbling down the tri-oval with a sixth of the field spinning and crashing through the smoke and fire demonstrates that NASCAR's reasoning was as brazen as Martin's wasn't.

Harvick will apparently go down in history as the winner of the 49th Daytona 500 in part because NASCAR didn't follow its own rules and because Martin didn't want to cause more controversy.(roanoke.com)
Click to expand...

It looks like in the RACER35 pic, there's already two cars spinning. Gee, why would NASCAR wait until 2 cars are crashing to throw the yellow...

I said it last year and I'll say it again, let them race back to the stripe if the wreck is behind them...

One thing's for sure, this will be a debate for some time to come.
 
How about that...it seems that even with video evidence, we can't agree on anything. As I saw it, being shown time and time again on the Wind Tunnel, even in slow motion, Kevin Harvick was ahead when Busch spun. Obviously, there is a disagreement with that and so it goes. If you believe that Mark was robbed, I don't think that anything short of the Lord himself (except in the case of Betsy) will change your mind. But you can be sure of one thing and that is the Happy guy got the trophy.
 
Some of you are splitting hairs on those pics. It is hard to say if they had thrown the caution who fast the call would have been made and how fast the lights would have came on. Those pics and be analyzed to death, but no one can prove at what second the yellow would have come on if they did call for a caution.
 
Yeah Andy - guess I'm calming down a little bit now. I wanted MM to win the race - and he DID win the race under nascar's stated rules.
 
In NASCAR'S infinate wisdom, it is as it is and that's all there is to it until determined otherwise. :rolleyes:
 
This Buds For Me said:
anytime i bring something up about Jr you seemed to get really pissed off. Whats the deal? I want fairness and clear rules....thats never existed in Nascar.

with the cheating scandals this weekend and the way the race ended...Nascar is leaving Daytona with Egg on their faces.

I dont care who won the race yesterday....nascar needs to call both races EXACTLY the same...unless they change the rules...have they changed the rules since then? no they havent....so why was the race that Gordon won and last night's race any different?

both times the leaders were in front of the wreck..yet one race they throw a caution and freeze the field, the other they dont.....thats a problem if you ask me.
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Me, pissed off? Nothing could be further from the truth.
As to why the race was called differently you know as well as I do. The Lil'E fans went ape over the call. So NASCAR calls it differently and people still complain.
Yes, it's a problem. But, IMO, they got the call right this time.
Tho I have to admit I really really enjoyed Lil'E getting screwed by none other than JeffG at Dega and the resulting fan's response. That speaks volumes about the bulk of them.
 
barelypure said:
Me, pissed off? Nothing could be further from the truth.
As to why the race was called differently you know as well as I do. The Lil'E fans went ape over the call. So NASCAR calls it differently and people still complain.
Yes, it's a problem. But, IMO, they got the call right this time.
Tho I have to admit I really really enjoyed Lil'E getting screwed by none other than JeffG at Dega and the resulting fan's response. That speaks volumes about the bulk of them.
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If nascar was so concerned with the backlash they got from the race at dega, then why didnt they change the rule?

the rule hasnt changed since then.....so why should the call be made differently?


too many "gray" areas....if nascar wants to shed the redneck persona, (as they claim they do) they need to bring some legitimacy to the sport.
 
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