what is the primary purpose of having a champion?

[racefan against nascare]

i first posed this question in another thread, but decided to make it a poll. i think it's obvious that i think a championship should reward the best team, but i'm curious to know what those who like the c4c concept, or are "just keeping an open mind for now," think...along with seeing how many people agree with me. :lol:

 

[Bucky Badger]

Originally posted by racefan against nascare@Jul 18 2004, 06:37 AM
i first posed this question in another thread, but decided to make it a poll. i think it's obvious that i think a championship should reward the best team, but i'm curious to know what those who like the c4c concept, or are "just keeping an open mind for now," think...along with seeing how many people agree with me. :lol:

I agree also. But the new system gives 8-9 other teams a free pass to catch back up to the leader which wipes out the best season long performance. which sucks for some and is good for the others. But I don't make the rules.

 

[Gollum]

To me it would be the only answer. To reward the best Driver and Team.

 

[TonyB]

Not going to vote on this one. The "purpose" behind having a championship cahnges depending on who you are: driver, fan, owner, sanctioning body, etc.

One of NASCAR's original purposes in having a "champion" was promotional: Having a single champion declared as national champion so they could claim something superior to any other series and promote themselves as such.

 

[DE_Wrangler_2]

I'm not feeding this tiger either. In addition to what tonyB said, I want to add that this new system rewards teams for season long performance just as the old system did. But it also puts more drivers and teams in a position to really challenge any winner of the Championship. Not only does the winner have to do well to qualify for the Chase during the first 26 races, he/they have to maintain that performance level for the remaining 10 races......in other words, there's not much room for "coasting" (maybe early to mid way through the first 26 but I think you can see where that could be disastrous). The old system just didn't have that competition incentive late in the season (on rare occasions, I have to admit it did........but generally it did not).

 

[Smoke]

I agree with DE. This system will reward the best drivers and teams. The best driver and team in the Chase should win the championship, that is if they are the best. This new system simply forces them to continue that championship performance throughout the entire season and doesn't allow them to "coast" through the tail-end of the season.

 

[Bucky Badger]

Originally posted by Smoke@Jul 18 2004, 03:45 PM
I agree with DE. This system will reward the best drivers and teams. The best driver and team in the Chase should win the championship, that is if they are the best. This new system simply forces them to continue that championship performance throughout the entire season and doesn't allow them to "coast" through the tail-end of the season.

Sorry I have to dissagree. You may have the best team in the world, but the last 10 races all it takes it for someone with no patients to cause a wreck and you are caught up in it. And yes it does happen if you are leading the race, we already saw that last week. But it looks like I am the lonely one out here

 

[DE_Wrangler_2]

The possibility of being taken out of a good chance of winning the Championship exists........and it exists for everyone in the hunt. It could happen..........and sooner or later it most likely will happen. But, it's all part of challenge and most likely will not happen often. I also believe with NASCAR's recent rules enforcement policy, there will be severe penalties handed out........and that will be very loudly and clearly stated to every driver in the race for every race in that final 10 race run. Throw all the "what ifs" and "could happens" you care to toss out but the new system has promise of being a good one. A few tweaks along the way for the next couple of seasons and, on the surface, it appears to be a better system than the old. Nothing is perfect. There are no guarantees. This is top tiered professional racing. It's not 1970 anymore........time to catch up to where the sport is now.

 

[Splunge]

Ha! So I'm the lone 'ratings' vote now....

Oh well!

I see the old points system as a reward for the best team. Plain and simple. But what I think the driving factor for the change was to increase rating.

DE is right, the championship is 'usually' really boring in the last couple of races...a string of DNF's is usually the only posibility for a mix up. But now there's a very real chance that #1 going into the last 10 won't win.

It's like any other playoff system where arguably 2nd rate teams are given the chance to win it all...

Wild card's, play-off seasons, etc. are common in most sports...and who doesn't like watching a wildcard team beat someone in the playoffs or make it to the superbowl?

This definitly seems to be a ratings driven decision in my opinion. So now it's up to the fans to re-define what it means as well...we always know when a 2nd rate team wins the superbowl or world series...I'm sure we'll apply the same asterisk (*) to a 2nd rate winner of the cup.

(but Jimmie would never let that happen)

 

[racefan against nascare]

so if someone was to build up a 400 point lead over second after race 26, loses 395 points of that advantage after race 26, and then loses the championship by only a few points, the best team didn't just get cheated out of the championship?

yes...there are wild cards and underdog champions in other sports, but racing is not other sports. it certainly isn't football, where each team only goes against, what, 10 of the 30-something other teams, and only plays 16 times.

yes...nascar's "national championship" did have promotional value that placed it ahead of other stock car organizations, as well as creating incentive for teams to go to all the races (which took awhile to work, as many years' points rundowns will show many teams that missed several races finishing in the top 10 each year for the first 20 or so seasons.) but the championship never wiped out whatever padding existed between each of the top 10 at some point in the season and never shut someone out of the top 10 who had a reasonable chance of making it onto the stage.

 

[Mopardh9]

I beleive this is a promotional gimmick by Nascar to generate better ratings, epecially during the latter half of the season when people tend to get bored with racing. When there is a leader that has a huge points lead with 10-12 races to go i think some fans tend to focus their interests on other sports ( baseball, Football, and towards the end of the season hockey). To me this is a travesty, i said in another thread i would reserve my judgement to the end of the season, but the more i think about it the more i'm a traditionalist and hate this new points system.

 

[EatMorePossum]

Originally posted by Bucky Badger@Jul 18 2004, 05:39 PM

Sorry I have to dissagree. You may have the best team in the world, but the last 10 races all it takes it for someone with no patients to cause a wreck and you are caught up in it. And yes it does happen if you are leading the race, we already saw that last week. But it looks like I am the lonely one out here

No, you are not alone. It bites, it's wrong, and we all know why (or should I say for whom) it was implemented.

 

[barelypure]

beleive this is a promotional gimmick by Nascar to generate better ratings, epecially during the latter half of the season when people tend to get bored with racing.

You forgot to add: And, the NFL begins to syphon away viewers. Why doesn't Fox show the full season - they have football. Last year, with the way Kenseth won (and good for him), it showed NASCAR their programming flaw. In order to keep the ratings up, so the advertising dollars will maintain a high level, they must attract viewers. Please do not assign NASCAR any lofty ideals of doing this for the fans, drivers, good of the sport, etc. It is for the money. It is always about the money.

 

[bowtie]

Originally posted by barelypure@Jul 19 2004, 08:05 AM
Please do not assign NASCAR any lofty ideals of doing this for the fans, drivers, good of the sport, etc. It is for the money. It is always about the money.

we finally agree on something.

 

[barelypure]

Does that mean I'm wrong.... :lol:
back atcha.

 

[bowtie]

Originally posted by barelypure@Jul 19 2004, 08:36 AM
Does that mean I'm wrong.... :lol:
back atcha.

could be...........

 

[Nitro]

I voted "Other"! I want to see the team or driver with the MOST WINS be champ....Like in other sports.

 

[racefan against nascare]

even with other sports, there is no guarantee that the team with the most wins will be the champ...that's one "other sports" arguement that isn't even true. besides, the winner beats 42 cars, second beats 41, third beats 40, etc...if someone has 4 wins, 5 seconds, and more top 5's than someone has won the most races with 6 wins, 0 seconds, few top fives, and a bunch of dnf's, why should the guy with 6 wins, who hasn't beaten as many people as the guy with 4 wins, win the championship? just because someone has won more races does not mean they performed the best consistantly...

if it was solely about wins, then someone could skip a bunch of races they feel they don't have a good shot at winning, devote all of their resuorces to their best tracks, and just not show up for the last few races once they know nobody has a mathematical shot at winning more races than them...for example, they could choose to just not have a restrictor plate program, which would save A LOT of money, and miss four races that they probably wouldn't win anyway, and devote their energy during the extra 8 or more off weeks towards improving their other cars...they would also only lose one testing date, as testing for the daytona 500 is a "mandatory" test, if you don't test there, you can't use that test at another track. other than that, any testing they might have felt would be neccessary to race at dega or the road courses could be used to prepare for other races.

that's the whole reason for having the championship system nascar used and nascare is using, to ensure that there are as many full-time teams as possible. without it, there would have been seasons where david pearson would have won the championship by having the most wins, even though his team would only run half to 2/3 of the schedule.

 

[DE_Wrangler_2]

Originally posted by racefan against nascare@Jul 19 2004, 01:50 AM
so if someone was to build up a 400 point lead over second after race 26, loses 395 points of that advantage after race 26, and then loses the championship by only a few points, the best team didn't just get cheated out of the championship?

No they didn't get cheated. In order to be cheated one must have been cheated by someone else taking advantage by not abiding within the bounds of the rules. The rule's pretty clear.........race 27 the clock is reset by position at the conclusion of race 26, there will be a huge point increase for the leader (I thought I heard it was something like 5000 points....but don't quote on that), then there will a 5 point deficit per position for each driver within 400 points at race 26's conclusion. There will be at least 10 cars in the chase should less than 10 cars be within 400 points. Everyone knows these rules. The drivers and teams certainly know these rules. Now tell me where anyone could be cheated by a set of rules as long as the rules are followed.

It seems to me that what you are complaining about is not that a driver might be cheated, but that a fan (or fans) might be cheated. And I'm saying that the jury's still out on that.

 

[Gollum]

If last week was the 26th race. And this was the old system then Kenseth is in 5th place at 399 points behine Johnson. The odds of Kenseth on back winning the championship would be slim to none. Under the new system. The tenth place man will only be 50 points behine the leader. So that means that any of the top ten could end the champ. Am I right . Or am I reading this wrong.

 

[DE_Wrangler_2]

Your reading that right Gollum. But one other thing everyone keeps forgetting. Anyone within 400 points will be in the chase too. Even the 20th place car if he's 400 or less behind at race 27!! I know it's not likely to happen soon, but with the competition getting as strong as it has been lately, it's only a matter of time.

 

[Splunge]

Hey...is there some place where we can actually look at the rules of Nascar?? I think it's telling that we (a group of "with it" fans) have questions about something as simple as the points system.

 

[TonyB]

After 26 races he points will be reset to

1st - 5,000
2nd - 4,995
3rd - 4,990
4th - 4,985
5th - 4,980
6th - 4,975
7th - 4,970
8th - 4,965
9th - 4,960
10th - 4,955

Anyone else within 400 points after 26 races will also be elevated with the increment being 5 points.


If you think this points system in complicated, you ought to try to figure out one of the systems they used prior to going to the Latford system in 1975.

In fact, when Bob Latford was given the task of creating a points system, his dictate was to create a simple system, one that people could easily understand. He was also tasked with one that would encourage teams to show up every week. The idea of actually rewwarding the most deserving champion was way down the list of priorities.

 

[racerx11]

To give teams incentive to show up and race every week. The old system didn't do that. The old system encouages point racing wich is boring. What incentive did Matt have for racing hard at the end of the year. Why take a chance to pass somebody when you are in the top 5 or even 10 when you have that huge point lead. The new sytem, teams will have to race hard up until the end of the year.

 

[DE_Wrangler_2]

I don't know why there's so many questions. It's actually pretty easy to understand............of course, that is assuming that you understood the old rules on the points. But, come to think of it, that old system is pretty complicated with all the bonus points and most laps led!! But the new rule only modified a couple things. 5 more points to the winner and the resetting of the points for anyone within 400 points of the leader, or the top ten whichever is more. If you understood the old system, this one is a piece of cake.

 

[Betsy]

Those of us that know NASCAR and follow from season to season will ALL be dissapointed in the new system by the end of the first season. This system is to accomadate the advertisesrs and the casual fans that really do not know what they are watching.
We are all going to be dissapointed when the 10th place guy at the 26th race down 560 points wins the championship in the
last 10 races. This guy would not and SHOULD not have a chance of winning a championship... We will see the results of GREED and none of us will like it. Even the true fans of that 10th place driver that wins the championship will know and understand that he did not WIN IT! It will be a gift of GREED.
Betsy

 

[Mopardh9]

Good point Betsy, i tend to agree with that , the sponsors are playing a huge role in this new system. Not only is the TV time more valuable now, getting your car with the sponsor name on the big screen becomes even more critical. Every day i think about this new system and as each day passes, i tend to shift my opinion towards not liking it. I try to have an open mind about it, but the more i think about it , it is all about Greed just like Betsy stated.

 

[racerx11]

I've been watching NASCAR from the early eighties and I feel I know what makes NASCAR tick. I also am enjoying the new points sytem and do not forsee any dissapointment.

We are all fans of NASCAR but we have different opinions. To say everyone that knows and follows NASCAR will be dissapointed in the new points sytem is false. I like it cause it adds excitement to the end of the year.

 

[Splunge]

Betsy makes some really good points there....

But keep in mind....fair is boring.

I'll be the first to admit, I only caught a few bits and pieces (just enough to see if JJ could catch Matt) of the last 10 races last year. I knew Matt had it won, and there was football on.

This is what I hope changes.

As a JJ fan you know that I wish it were the old points system, but I'm always up for some good "what if's"...

I can already predict I'll watch more of the last 10 races....

 

[racerx11]

Originally posted by Splunge@Jul 21 2004, 09:47 AM
Betsy makes some really good points there....

But keep in mind....fair is boring.

I'll be the first to admit, I only caught a few bits and pieces (just enough to see if JJ could catch Matt) of the last 10 races last year. I knew Matt had it won, and there was football on.

This is what I hope changes.

As a JJ fan you know that I wish it were the old points system, but I'm always up for some good "what if's"...

I can already predict I'll watch more of the last 10 races....

I agree with what you said about watching more of the final ten races this year, and I bet because of the same reasons you will. Because it is more exciting.

I do not see that adding an exciting element to the sport should construed as greed. What's wrong with trying to improve the sport?

 

[Mopardh9]

Is it really improving it...only time will tell on that one. I for one watch every race anyway to see how my favorites are doing, so this will not increase my viewing time or decrease it. Even during football season i watch the race and have the football game on PIP.

 

[Splunge]

Tell you what, I'll let you drive my new Charger if you let me watch football & nascar at your house...

I don't even have cable, much less pip...



Time always has a way of telling....kinda like your little sister when you were young...

But at least we know if NASCAR doesn't like a rule, it's never too late to change it! phhhttt!

 

[Nitro]

Originally posted by racefan against nascare@Jul 19 2004, 01:46 PM
even with other sports, there is no guarantee that the team with the most wins will be the champ...that's one "other sports" arguement that isn't even true. besides, the winner beats 42 cars, second beats 41, third beats 40, etc...if someone has 4 wins, 5 seconds, and more top 5's than someone has won the most races with 6 wins, 0 seconds, few top fives, and a bunch of dnf's, why should the guy with 6 wins, who hasn't beaten as many people as the guy with 4 wins, win the championship? just because someone has won more races does not mean they performed the best consistantly...

if it was solely about wins, then someone could skip a bunch of races they feel they don't have a good shot at winning, devote all of their resuorces to their best tracks, and just not show up for the last few races once they know nobody has a mathematical shot at winning more races than them...for example, they could choose to just not have a restrictor plate program, which would save A LOT of money, and miss four races that they probably wouldn't win anyway, and devote their energy during the extra 8 or more off weeks towards improving their other cars...they would also only lose one testing date, as testing for the daytona 500 is a "mandatory" test, if you don't test there, you can't use that test at another track. other than that, any testing they might have felt would be neccessary to race at dega or the road courses could be used to prepare for other races.

that's the whole reason for having the championship system nascar used and nascare is using, to ensure that there are as many full-time teams as possible. without it, there would have been seasons where david pearson would have won the championship by having the most wins, even though his team would only run half to 2/3 of the schedule.

All I know is I dont think its right that some retard who only won one race; compared to another driver who won multiple races, wins the Championship. I just dont think it makes much sense. So whats the big deal with winning races if you dont really get rewarded for them in the long run.

In general it is the team with the most wins that goes for the championship, but those other sports have the wildcard system in the playoffs; to beat the team with BETTER wins.

 

[Eagle1]

I think if you look back at past champions, the guy with the most wins hasn't woevery year.n the championship

 

[DE_Wrangler_2]

The driver with the most wins didn't win the last two championsips.

 

[Splunge]

Ok, this might actually address one issue...

Do you think 10 races is enough to cover any dumb-luck (both positive and negative) and therefore reveal the best driver.

I ask this because I think most of us would agree that by 10 to go, we have a pretty good idea of who's having a good year. So is 10 races too risky for the top driver, or do you think that's enough races for a truely great driver to succeed.

Becuase in my opinion, the cup is already down to about 3-4 drivers...JJ, Jr, Jeff, and maybe Matt or Tony. I don't think anyone else in the top 10 has been performing well enough to beat these guys over 10 races.

 

[Eagle1]

Some teams and drivers come on their strongest at the end of the year, year after year and this system could favor them. Then others seem to fall apart the last 1/3 - 1/4 of year and this would have a negative effect on them.

 

[DE_Wrangler_2]

You're probably right Splunge about who will really be the contenders for the title. The drivers who have done well all season during the 26 race lead up will most likely continue to do so for the final 10 races. Yeah there is a chance that the 10th place driver (or even further back) could really crank it up and win 8 of the 10 and absolutely annihilate the top 3 or 4 drivers that dominated all season long......not really likely but it could happen. And I think that's what most are screaming bloody murder about...........nothing but a maybe or could happen. They are negative now and they will be negative all through the last part of the season. I'm looking forward to seeing how it plays out. One thing I feel pretty sure will not happen this year (and as long as this points system is in place) is the maddening points racing by the leader once he gets a comfortable lead. A few posters have stated that should the 10th place driver win he would not deserve the true title. Yet those same few cheer for a driver to get his 400 point lead and then circles the track for the last 6 or so races not even trying to win........only place high enough to protect his lead. Now who deserves the true title with that comparison? I know the points racing has, in fact, happened.........many times over the years. I don't know that the 10th place driver will "steal" (or receive a "gift") the Championship. In fact if the 10th place driver can come on and win the title in the final 10 races I think he deserves more praise than the driver who coasted to victory.

 

[Mopardh9]

Then again you could have teams within the 400 point range that qualify for the championship 10 race dash and sanbag just enough. That way they could save their best for the last 10 races. I'm sure this could be a very real scenario.

 

[DE_Wrangler_2]

And that strategy would make them undeserving of the title? That's kinda like saying the driver that saved his best set of tires for the end didn't deserve the win. Or Jeff Gordon staying under the radar for three quarters of the race, then turn his stuff up and never look back (he does that a lot, ya know ). I say that's perfectly okay to attempt........if it works, then they certainly deserved the title.