What's the best thing....????

D

dsdjtlts

Guest
What is the best thing that could happen in Nascar? And, you can't say "get rid of Bill France, cause in my opinion, that goes without saying. Nascar is a monoply...that indeed has to be broken up. Independent officials should be hired. The governing body should be separate from the owning body.
 
Best thing that could happen would be for more fans to educate themselves to what NASCAR actually is, what it does and the relationship between the tracks, the teams and the drivers.

NASCAR is a sanctioning body, solely owned by the France family, which puts together the show.

ISC, International Speedway Corporation, is a publicly owned company which owns and operates racetracks and other related fan attractions.

NASCAR races are held at somewhere near 100 tracks, nationwide, every year, and ISC owns only about a dozen or so of those tracks.

There are many more different sanctioning bodies in the auto racing entertainment business, and while they may or may not enjoy the success and profitablity of NASCAR, the fact that they do exist and continue to operate is proof positive that NASCAR is not, nor can it in any way, be construed by a normal thinking person, as any type of monopoly.

Just FYI, most of the NASCAR officials are independents who are hired because of their knowledge and experience within the business. Nearly all have worked for teams, for sponsors, or in other areas associated with racing in some manner and have shown themselves to be well qualified for the positions they hold.

Have a nice day.
 
boB said:
Best thing that could happen would be for more fans to educate themselves to what NASCAR actually is, what it does and the relationship between the tracks, the teams and the drivers.

NASCAR is a sanctioning body, solely owned by the France family, which puts together the show.

ISC, International Speedway Corporation, is a publicly owned company which owns and operates racetracks and other related fan attractions.

NASCAR races are held at somewhere near 100 tracks, nationwide, every year, and ISC owns only about a dozen or so of those tracks.

There are many more different sanctioning bodies in the auto racing entertainment business, and while they may or may not enjoy the success and profitablity of NASCAR, the fact that they do exist and continue to operate is proof positive that NASCAR is not, nor can it in any way, be construed by a normal thinking person, as any type of monopoly.

Just FYI, most of the NASCAR officials are independents who are hired because of their knowledge and experience within the business. Nearly all have worked for teams, for sponsors, or in other areas associated with racing in some manner and have shown themselves to be well qualified for the positions they hold.

Have a nice day.
Click to expand...
France family owns Nascar. Who heads up ISC??? James C. France-CEO....Lesa France Kennedy--President.....William France-Chairman. I see a connection and a monopoly.
 
Getting rid of ISC, and having new tracks built that are not 1.5 mile ovals...how about another two Bristols for example. With the ISC relationship no one will ever build a track with the risk of not getting a 'cup date'
 
If there were no other sanctioning bodies conducting stock car racing in the country, NASCAR would be a monopoly.

There's ASA (not sure how much longer they'll be around), ARCA, Hooter's Pro Cup, UMP, ACT, PASS and how many others?
Not to mention IRL, Champ car, Formula 1, the WoO Sprintcars, NEMA, ISMA, SCCA and???

NASCAR can in no way be construed as a monopoly.
The France family has been very careful to build their empire within the legal bounds within which they have to operate.

Even if NASCAR only sanctioned races at the tracks owned by ISC, it still would not be a monopoly simply because anyone else with the money and know how could start a competing series at any time.

I wouldn't look for any of the current track owners who have dates to even give a passing thought to something of that nature. They're making too much money working with the current sanctioning body.

Repeat after me: NASCAR IS NOT A MONOPOLY!!
It IS a very successful entertainment business!

ISC is a publically owned company, in which the France family are members of the board of officers and they hold a controlling interest. They still have other stockholders which they have to answer to.

The France family also has interests in other business holdings as well, including Americrown, which supplies concessions to ISC owned tracks as well as some real estate and retail development firms.
They, along with SMI have just purchased Action Performance which is the largest NASCAR licensed souvenir sales agent as well.

Simply good, sound business smarts.
 
dsdjtlts said:
France family owns Nascar. Who heads up ISC??? James C. France-CEO....Lesa France Kennedy--President.....William France-Chairman. I see a connection and a monopoly.
Click to expand...


NASCAR was founded by a group of race enthusiasts from the mid-west, northeast and south. Bill France bought out the others a few years later. He was the one who brought NASCAR to a point that enabled his family to improve on and increase the popularity of the sport. It took more than fifty years to accomplish this.

The founder, Billl France, put every penny he owned and many more he signed for, in an effort to build Daytona International Speedway. He made a deal with Pepsi-Cola to complete his dream and no one else wanted to invest in Bill France's scheme to build Daytona.

Is NASCAR a monopoly ???

Insiders, which include The France Family, own approx. 34% of ISC stock. This means 66% of the remaining stockholders have no association within the framework of the France Family or NASCAR.
Will that 66% challenge the France Family in decisions of ISC ???
Let's put it this way.
If you owned five shares or five percent of stock in ISC, and a vote came to the table with the potential to increase the value of your stock, will you vote for or against the France Family ?????
Like the rest of the 66% who usually vote in concert with the France Family, since the whole concept of owning ISC stock is, to make money and The France Family has certainly been good at making money.

To the disgruntled fans who think the France Family is making millions, you are right. And the France Family should. It was thier idea, it was they who took the chance when no one else would and it continues to be the France Family today who own NASCAR and shares the wealth with stockholders of ISC.

So are you against a monopoly or are you against NASCAR. If you are against NASCAR, why ??? Is it because you don't like the decisions they make and the control they have as sanctioning body??

But isn't that why they are what they are. A sanctioning body whose job description says, they charge to be the sanctioning body and they offer support staff who make the decisions. It is a part of the business.
Keep in mind, the France Family made NASCAR and they earn the money they make. The France Family controls NASCAR and they make the decisions. This is how things happen in America with private enterprise.

Or maybe disgruntled fans would rather the federal government step in and take over the operation as an anti-trust action.
 
Hey Whizzer,

Glad to see you're still around, taking names and kicking butt.

I think the biggest problem with those who feel NASCAR is a monopoly is that they simply have no idea at all of what is involved, the relationships between track owners, NASCAR, the teams and drivers nor any real idea of basic business principles.

They profess to love stockcar racing, but they don't have a clue as to how it has become what it is today. I'm amazed at all those who honestly believe the whole thing started with a bunch of moonshiners chasing each other around in some farmer's cornfield.

While they raise their hue and cry about the fans making it what it is, they fail to realize that without the foresight, the hard work and the marketing genius of a few folks named France all those fans have to find something else to watch on Sundays and complain about the rest of the week.
 
Nascar is an monopoly, because about the olny way you can get a race is it you give like 30% to france and ISC, or just do a lot of butt kissing like Penskie does. ;)
 
I do love stockcar racing, i love the racing from like 93 back, after that the cars dont even look stock, they all are just running Monte Carlos.
 
Lappy, I am aware that you are racing at a local level, but you're showing us all how little you know about the business of racing here.

All the tracks that host an event featuring one of the three top tier NASCAR series pay a sanction fee to NASCAR, they must post the purse with NASCAR and in return, NASCAR guarantees to bring the teams to race, to assist in the promotion, furnish the officials, the insurance and running of the event.

Even ISC tracks are operated in the same manner.

You do realize that NASCAR has taken dates from some of the ISC tracks and moved them to others, do you not?

NASCAR also sanctions nearly 100 short tracks nationwide; that association enables the short tracks to deal with their suppliers, their advertisers, their competitors and their sponsors as a large conglomerate instead of individual enities, which saves those small operations a considerable sum of money in operating costs every year. Competitors benefit because those tracks all run a pretty consistant set of rules, they are certain of getting the promised purse each week as well as somewhere near equal guidelines for the officials which they deal with. There are other benefits for both the track owners/promoters and competitors as well.

As for Mr. Penske, he has sold his interest in the different tracks he held to ISC several years ago. That and his other racing holdings are merely one of many different enterprises he is involved with.

And once again, NASCAR is not a monopoly. There are many other race sanctions all across the country. NASCAR has simply become the most successful because of one family's dedication, hard work and busniness skills.

Limited perception on the part of uninformed/misinformed fans does not constitute a monopoly.
 
dsdjtlts said:
France family owns Nascar. Who heads up ISC??? James C. France-CEO....Lesa France Kennedy--President.....William France-Chairman. I see a connection and a monopoly.
Click to expand...

So what is it you're trying to say??

Everything boB said is fact and maybe he gave you to much credit to understand but I'll see if I can add anything.

PRIVATE ENTERPRISE, ever heard of that?

NASCAR is privatly owned, private business. It's business is sanctioning 1 form of auto racing.
A private business can build and own ALL the buildings it opporates it's business out of if #1 it has the money #2 if it so choses.
In NASCAR's case it pertains to tracks and amenities. So NASCAR could OWN ALL the tracks it raced at, and not allow any other sanctioning body to race there if the so chose.

The problem is most of you think NASCAR is racing and by them not letting Billy Bob hold a NASCAR race in his cow pasture they're being a monopoly. But in fact he can invite any other racing series he wants, to hold a race there as long as they want to come.

NASCAR is a registered TRADE name by the France family so yes they have total control over everything to do with NASCAR. It's really just that simple.
It is a privately owned company therefore they do not have to answer to anyone outside of their organization pertaining to rules or how they chose to run it as long as they pay their taxes.

What part of ISC managing the tracks do you find confusing? A person, a family can have several different enterprises they own and run. ISC is a publicly held company which means the have stock holders, and a board of directors and the Pres. or CEO has to answer to them if there are profit losses etc.

Things that totally blow your monopoly BS out of the water;
NASCAR does not try to limit racing at tracks they do not own to JUST NAscar, in fact all those tracks hold several races each year that are NOT sanctioned by NASCAR ie: IRL, ASA, USAC, USAR Hooters Pro Cup, ARCA, F-1,
etc. etc.

But the fact is not only do they not care but other sanctioning bodies have races at the same track on the same weekend and everyone works together.
Also..... at ISC owned tracks several different sanctioning bodies hold events, :rolleyes: seems to me that's helping they grow their series, not hindering.

Really what difference does it make? If you took it away from the France's someone else would make all the rules and I doubt very much they would ask or care what your opinion was then you'd be bitching about them. :)
 
They have to answer to the fans - the fans just need to let them know that.
 
Patrick,

Stop and think about it; NASCAR does answer to the fans: every weekend at tracks all across the country.

They must be pleasing a fairly large number of those fans every week because so many keep coming back, not just to the big time events, but to the short tracks as well.

They spend their money, buy the souvenirs and watch on television, so I'd have to say that the France family and NASCAR must be doing something right.

I wonder how many millionaires any of the discontented fans have created over the last ten years?
 
boB said:
Patrick,

Stop and think about it; NASCAR does answer to the fans: every weekend at tracks all across the country.

They must be pleasing a fairly large number of those fans every week because so many keep coming back, not just to the big time events, but to the short tracks as well.

They spend their money, buy the souvenirs and watch on television, so I'd have to say that the France family and NASCAR must be doing something right.

I wonder how many millionaires any of the discontented fans have created over the last ten years?
Click to expand...

I'm a fan, and I don't have a problem Sure there are somethings I don't like, but I also look at over 50 years the France family has controlled NASCAR and it has grown and become the 800lb gorilla. What have the other series done? As Ed Hinton said on Wind Tunnel the other night, they're breathing but that's about it. Not a one of them can compete with NASCAR in ratings, popularity, purses, TV coverage, or fan base. Why do you think that is? IF they had the strong plan and leader they could've out grown NASCAR, they had the opportunity. Many men thought they were smarter than Big Bill, but their series went Ka Put!

So, please explain to me why NASCAR should all of a sudden should start letting people like you and me tell it how the series should be run?
Their plan ain't broke, I don't see them changing it cause Billy Bob don't like it.
Didn't CART let a bunch of people make decisions?
 
My biggest problem with nascar is, they want to "expand" there fan aera. ok so lets build a track in Texas, fine with me!, how about Cailf. we can us a track there to. BUT they do not need 2 races. Give Kentucky a race. what about gate way? nashville? ect ect. If nascar really wants to get a bigger fan base they will have races at diff tracks and not the very same track 2x a year. or, make the chase races at tracks that dont have a reg cup race.
 
But you see Lappy that's similar to just what I was talking about. NASCAR has become very successful and everybody wants a piece of their action and gets mad because they won't give it to them.
Billy Bob (KMS) built a speedway even though they were told NASCAR would not give them a Cup date, they were NOT going to add dates to that geographic area. Now Billy Bob is pissed off cause sure he's got other series racing there but he ain't making as much money as he could if he had a Cup date.
NASCAR has the plan for expantion they choose to do, it is their business, they can make those decissions.
How many races are within an 8 hour drive of Ky Speedway?
 
boB said:
Patrick,

Stop and think about it; NASCAR does answer to the fans: every weekend at tracks all across the country.

They must be pleasing a fairly large number of those fans every week because so many keep coming back, not just to the big time events, but to the short tracks as well.

They spend their money, buy the souvenirs and watch on television, so I'd have to say that the France family and NASCAR must be doing something right.

I wonder how many millionaires any of the discontented fans have created over the last ten years?
Click to expand...


That shows the dedication of fans to racing and the drivers.

I doubt many of them are spending their money because they're fans of Nascar or it's owners.

Nascar knows they have the only show in town and have one catch-all rule to justify any decisions they make.
 
Eagle1 said:
So what is it you're trying to say??

Everything boB said is fact and maybe he gave you to much credit to understand but I'll see if I can add anything.

PRIVATE ENTERPRISE, ever heard of that?

NASCAR is privatly owned, private business. It's business is sanctioning 1 form of auto racing.
A private business can build and own ALL the buildings it opporates it's business out of if #1 it has the money #2 if it so choses.
In NASCAR's case it pertains to tracks and amenities. So NASCAR could OWN ALL the tracks it raced at, and not allow any other sanctioning body to race there if the so chose.

The problem is most of you think NASCAR is racing and by them not letting Billy Bob hold a NASCAR race in his cow pasture they're being a monopoly. But in fact he can invite any other racing series he wants, to hold a race there as long as they want to come.

NASCAR is a registered TRADE name by the France family so yes they have total control over everything to do with NASCAR. It's really just that simple.
It is a privately owned company therefore they do not have to answer to anyone outside of their organization pertaining to rules or how they chose to run it as long as they pay their taxes.

What part of ISC managing the tracks do you find confusing? A person, a family can have several different enterprises they own and run. ISC is a publicly held company which means the have stock holders, and a board of directors and the Pres. or CEO has to answer to them if there are profit losses etc.

Things that totally blow your monopoly BS out of the water;
NASCAR does not try to limit racing at tracks they do not own to JUST NAscar, in fact all those tracks hold several races each year that are NOT sanctioned by NASCAR ie: IRL, ASA, USAC, USAR Hooters Pro Cup, ARCA, F-1,
etc. etc.

But the fact is not only do they not care but other sanctioning bodies have races at the same track on the same weekend and everyone works together.
Also..... at ISC owned tracks several different sanctioning bodies hold events, :rolleyes: seems to me that's helping they grow their series, not hindering.

Really what difference does it make? If you took it away from the France's someone else would make all the rules and I doubt very much they would ask or care what your opinion was then you'd be bitching about them. :)
Click to expand...
You have said nothing to change my mind...ISC & Nascar equals the France family. Is there any other sport where the same company that owns and regulates the sport is owned by someone who also owns most of the stadiums...
 
boB said:
Patrick,

Stop and think about it; NASCAR does answer to the fans: every weekend at tracks all across the country.

They must be pleasing a fairly large number of those fans every week because so many keep coming back, not just to the big time events, but to the short tracks as well.

They spend their money, buy the souvenirs and watch on television, so I'd have to say that the France family and NASCAR must be doing something right.

I wonder how many millionaires any of the discontented fans have created over the last ten years?
Click to expand...
I am not a discontented race fan..I love racing...I don't like the way the France family decides the who what where and when ............Nascar does not listen to fans, never have, never will. They know fans will show up no matter what they say or do simply because fans love the racing and the drivers.
 
redrock said:
Getting rid of ISC, and having new tracks built that are not 1.5 mile ovals...how about another two Bristols for example. With the ISC relationship no one will ever build a track with the risk of not getting a 'cup date'
Click to expand...
You are absolutely right....the France family dictates who what where and when.
 
Is it to much to expect-respect-even if what I say is not to your liking.....
I am a person of few words....I don't stand on a soap box and try to dazzle people with my knowledge of facts.....a good debate/difference of opinion does not include questioning a persons sanity, their level of intelligence or their knowledge base.
 
dsdjtlts,

You just said it all: NASCAR dictates who, what, when and where. That's the whole idea we've been trying to get across to you and others here. NASCAR owns that sanctioning body and as a privately owned company has that right. That's exactly what myself and others have been trying to get across.

Several have posted to this thread that they're race fans; it would appear that is not a true statement, they're NASCAR NEXTEL CUP fans if the content of their posts is any indication.

There has been mention of NASCAR's expansion plans; what seems to be overlooked is the simple fact that NASCAR/ISC pays for surveys to determine the market into which they are looking to expand. They don't just decide that, "Hey, let's build a track in New York City, or the Northwest, or where ever else." just to build a new race track.

dsdjtlts, I fail to see where anyone has been disrespectful to you or any other poster to this thread; we've simply tried to explain to you and others the facts which are obviously being ignored when you form your opinions.

Some of us have been around not only NASCAR, but auto racing since shortly after NASCAR was formed. We've raced with NASCAR and other sanctioning bodies and we are speaking with first hand knowledge not only of racing, but our own experiences in the business world as well.

If you feel we are being disrespectful of your opinions because we try to explain the reasons for our own, we are wasting our time.

As for you being a person of few words, you sure are doing your best to disprove that since you joined our forum.

With all that said, have a nice day. Hope you're not anywhere near the path of Rita.
 
To bring this another arena, Wal-Mart owns or leases all of its stores. Those on the Board of Wal-Mart makes the decisions of who, what, when and where. They decide where stores will be built and where stores will be closed. How many of those Wal-Mart stores do you think have a K-Mart or a Target inside. That's right, none. There may be a K-Mart or Target across the street competing. K-Mart filed for bankruptcy because they were having their lunch eaten. A lot of towns would love a big Wal-Mart. Some towns don't want a Wal-Mart anywhere near them. But, Wal-Mart makes those decisions. Not the towns, not the shoppers and not their competitors.
 
NASCAR does listen to the fans. If they failed to do so, the series would never have grown to the point it is today. Good business practice.
Had NASCAR not developed a sanctioning body that tried to please the fans, these same "race fans" would flock to the local tracks and ignore NASCAR.
Why is it many local tracks shut down when there is a NASCAR race on Saturday night ???????? Is this because NASCAR fails to listen to fans ????
Why is it NASCAR sanctioned races continue to grow if the fans are dissatisfied???
Why is it, other series such as SCCA, IMSA, WoO, DIRT, CART, with top talent and quality racing cannot compete with NASCAR ????
As boB noted, if NASCAR is a monopoly, so is every other privately owned sanctioning body.

As to the quality of this topic, I see no disrespect or questioning of anyones sanity. What I do see are misinformed and disgruntled people who pee on NASCAR for a non-specific reason.
If NASCAR was not listening to the fans, they would have stayed in the eastern regional portion of the U.S. where the majority of the races were held after 1970. NASCAR expanded to accomodate fans and they are making mega-bucks as a result of the expansion. Again, good business.
IF.....NASCAR is a monopoly, what should it be ??????? Broken up ??
Taken over by the federal government ??? Operated by a panel of "race fans" who have no experience in business or race promoting ???? If this were the case, how would the profit be split ??
On what grounds would someone break up ISC ??? For what reason ?? To what end??? How should it be broken up ?????

Get real folks. There have been ample explanations of history on NASCAR that can be verified, connections between ISC and NASCAR dismantled and proven the France Family (including NASCAR insiders) does not control ISC by owning 34% of the stock.

The thoughts offered by some are not realistic, legal and some are downright discriminatory.
If you are ticked off at NASCAR, at least have a sound reason and intelligent solution. Otherwise what is the point ??? And so far, the "fans" indicating thier disapproval of NASCAR as a "monopoly" or not listening to the "fans", have done neither.
 
Patrick9999 said:
That shows the dedication of fans to racing and the drivers.

I doubt many of them are spending their money because they're fans of Nascar or it's owners.

Nascar knows they have the only show in town and have one catch-all rule to justify any decisions they make.
Click to expand...

Dedication of fans to RACING and drivers? The RACING you're talking about IS NASCAR Racing or they wouldn't be there they'd be watching or going to another racing sanctioning body's races. So I think you're wrong, and the attendence at other sanctioning bodies races when compared to NASCAR events certainly prove that.

Your second comment is equally off base. Myself and millions of others are NASCAR fans. Do you really go to a NASCAR race, spend your money, sit in boiling sun etc for a driver? How many times have you got to spend the day with that driver?
People go because it is NASCAR Cup series race. I see hundreds (in my little area) and thousands (at the track) of NASCAR & Nextel stickers, T-shirts, hats, jackets, etc. on cars & trucks. IF they hated NASCAR why did they all spend their money on those non driver supporting but sanctioning body supporting merchandise?
By that premis, everytime a driver retires or leaves the sport ALL those fans would quit watching all together. But an a whole that doesn't happen, they chose another driver and keep watching, or they just keep watching and waiting for another driver to come along for them to be a fan of. The point to that is, EVEN with OUT a favorite driver they keep watching NASCAR racing. Why is that? Could it be because they ARE in fact fans of NASCAR?

Excuse me, how many times do ALL the other racing series have to be listed before you realize there are MANY other racing series, therefore NASCAR does NOT have the only game in town?so to speak)

What NASCAR does have is the #1 racing series in the USA and by the number of posters I see from Canada, I'll bet in all of North America.
 
Seeing that you two guys have all the answers, here's a few more questions for your approval.

When was the last time anyone went to a race to watch any member of the France Family drive around the track? Do you think that people buy Jeff Gordons T-Shirt because of the Nascar emblem? Do think that if the top 20 teams jumped the Nascar ship that they'd have the fans they do now?

I didn't say that there aren't any other forms of racing, but there's NONE with the guys that Nextel Cup racing has and people show up to see THEM.

"Do you really go to a NASCAR race, spend your money, sit in boiling sun etc for a driver? How many times have you got to spend the day with that driver?"

That's an interesting comment considering how some people go into the stratoshpere whenever anything even remotely negative is said about certain drivers. It's almost like the guy cured cancer or split the Atom.

I have no interest to "spend a day with that driver" The France Family are my real heroes.
 
dsdjtlts said:
You have said nothing to change my mind...ISC & Nascar equals the France family. Is there any other sport where the same company that owns and regulates the sport is owned by someone who also owns most of the stadiums...
Click to expand...

The answer to that must be quite simple then, you have your mind set to believe 1 thing and 1 thing only.
Lots of facts have been posted that prove that theory is extremly flawed.

Yes, no one is disputing that NASCAR + ISC = the France family. So what? That in itself does NOT even come close to prove your point.

How about this; Sam's Club + Wal-Mart = Walton family? They not only own most of the buildings their stores are in, but the own complete strip malls their stores are in therefore controling what type of competition is immediatly near them.
Neither of these are cases of monopoly, but of private enterprise doing business in different areas of our free enterprise society.

"Is there any other sport where the same company that owns and regulates the sport is owned by someone who also owns most of the stadiums.."

You have a very flawed interpretation of the SPORT.

The SPORT is Auto Racing. PERIOD!
N ational A ssociation (of) S tock C ar "A uto R acing"
Many many different sanctioning bodies that participate in the SPORT of auto racing have already been listed, so I'm not even going to do that again.

NASCAR does NOT own and regulate the SPORT and own most of the tracks the SPORT races on.
NASCAR is but 1 of these different sanctioning bodies participating in the sport of Auto Racing..
 
dsdjtlts said:
Is it to much to expect-respect-even if what I say is not to your liking.....
I am a person of few words....I don't stand on a soap box and try to dazzle people with my knowledge of facts.....a good debate/difference of opinion does not include questioning a persons sanity, their level of intelligence or their knowledge base.
Click to expand...

This truly baffles me, I haven't read anyones post here being disrespectful.

It appears what you want is a good debate, (if you can call it that) of all ideas supporting your premis.
You are mistaking your "opinions" as fact and when pointed out that it is not fact you're being offended and feel we're being disrespectful.

Again I haven't seen once anyone question your sanity or intelligence level, if you're so sensative that people pointing out facts other than your belief offends you maybe you shouldn't start a thread which would open up such debate, because that IS what debating is.
 
Patrick 9999,

You mention NASCAR having one rule to cover any decision. I take it you are refering to 12-4-A?

12-4-A reads: Any member who performs an act or participates in actions deemed by NASCAR officials as detrimental to stock car racing or to NASCAR: fine of at least $100.00, and the Member may also be suspended and/or lose championship points.

There are thirty three other sub sections to that same rule which are all related to the behavior, actions of Members or competitors, and penalties for infractions of other rules.
Indeed, Section 12 deals with Violations and Discipinary Actions and the language is very specific.

If a member is caught breaking other rules, this rule is automatically being broken as well. If a member is "flipping off" another person or cursing in a live interview, this rule applies.

Members are informed of the rules when they receive their license and they agree to abide by those rules as set down by the sanctioning body. Once again, the language on the application which is signed by the applicant, is very specific and clear.

If one rule were all that is needed, why does the latest copy of the rule book which I have (2003) have nearly 200 pages of very fine print? And why does NASCAR feel the need to constantly send technical bulletins to the teams and members to keep them updated throughout the season?

As for the top twenty teams leaving NASCAR...
Why in the world would any of the top teams decide to leave NASCAR when that is where the money is at the present time?
 
Patrick9999 said:
Seeing that you two guys have all the answers, here's a few more questions for your approval.

When was the last time anyone went to a race to watch any member of the France Family drive around the track? Do you think that people buy Jeff Gordons T-Shirt because of the Nascar emblem? Do think that if the top 20 teams jumped the Nascar ship that they'd have the fans they do now?

I didn't say that there aren't any other forms of racing, but there's NONE with the guys that Nextel Cup racing has and people show up to see THEM.
"Do you really go to a NASCAR race, spend your money, sit in boiling sun etc for a driver? How many times have you got to spend the day with that driver?"

That's an interesting comment considering how some people go into the stratoshpere whenever anything even remotely negative is said about certain drivers. It's almost like the guy cured cancer or split the Atom.

I have no interest to "spend a day with that driver" The France Family are my real heroes.
Click to expand...

Now you've got to stoop to the ridiculas to prove a point that just doesn't exist.
No, no one goes to a race to watch the France family drive a race car. DUH!!!

But we do go to a NASCAR race to watch with out question the most popular racing series in N. America, which has been built into what it is today under the guidence and direction of the France family.

"Do you think that people buy Jeff Gordons T-Shirt because of the Nascar emblem?"

Did I or anyone else here say that people weren't also driver fans? You tried making a point that All fans were driver fans and not NASCAR fans. So what kind of point are you attempting to make?

"Do think that if the top 20 teams jumped the Nascar ship that they'd have the fans they do now?"

Do you think the top 20 teams would jump ship from a series that makes even the back running drivers and teams millionaires to a series that pays 1 or 2 thousand dollors to win a race?

Do I think NASCAR would survive if several of the top teams quit competing in NASCAR? Yes I do. New teams and existing teams would fill their void in a heartbeat.
Would some of the fans leave because their favorite driver wasn't in that series anymore? Yes as I stated in my last reply. But those are driver fans and NOT true fans of NASCAR.

That's a point that's been argued over and over and people get real upset and offended because they "claim" to be NASCAR fans but constantly bash everything NASCAR (ie: the France Family) does pertaining to the opporation of the sanctioning body. Those are driver fans.

"I didn't say that there aren't any other forms of racing, but there's NONE with the guys that Nextel Cup racing has and people show up to see THEM."

And no other series has the same drivers as the IRL, except the IRL. :confused: Or any of the other series. DUH!

What you said was;
"Nascar knows they have the only show in town and have one catch-all rule to justify any decisions they make."

NASCAR has the only NASCAR show in town, that is true. But again what is the point?

So you're saying the France family has a monopoly on NASCAR, is that the point you're trying to make?

If that is, it proves you do not understand the difference between a monopoly and a privatly owned business.

So:
Sears has a monopoly on Sears & Craftsman tools.
Bernie E. has a monoploly on F-1
Tony George has a monopoly on the IRL
Tony Stewart has a monopoly on Eldora
Target has a monopoly on Target stores.

Wow! You must live in a world completly run by monopolies, I'm sure glad I don't live there.
In my world "IF" I so chose and had the money I could start my own sanctioning body for auto racing. "IF" I had the financial backing and could attract big sponsors and interest a TV network to show my series racing I could compete against NASCAR for fan base and driving talent.
The point is, Big Bill took on those challanges against many other more established racing sanctioning bodies and through his guidence and visons built the biggest, most popular racing series in N. America.
 
One more thought here:

Just how famous would all those drivers be if it were not for NASCAR?

Tony Stewart, Robby Gordon, Dave Blaney and a few others would be known for their open wheel success.

Jeff Gordon...maybe

Dale Earnhardt... who the heck is he? HE couldn't drive a stockcar without knocking the fenders off of his and all the others on the track.

Jr....same as above

Bill Elliott?

Rusty Wallace?

Mark Martin?

the Jarrett family?

the Waltrips?

I could go on here, but don't think it's needed.

Without NASCAR and the marketing that organization has provided over the last fifty years, a bunch of drivers would have never become famous, not too mention quite wealthy in the process.
Now tell me again how its the drivers who have made NASCAR...
I think the reality is that one without the other equals zero...
But then again.
 
Eagle1 said:
But you see Lappy that's similar to just what I was talking about. NASCAR has become very successful and everybody wants a piece of their action and gets mad because they won't give it to them.
Billy Bob (KMS) built a speedway even though they were told NASCAR would not give them a Cup date, they were NOT going to add dates to that geographic area. Now Billy Bob is pissed off cause sure he's got other series racing there but he ain't making as much money as he could if he had a Cup date.
NASCAR has the plan for expantion they choose to do, it is their business, they can make those decissions.
How many races are within an 8 hour drive of Ky Speedway?
Click to expand...

The closest cup track to me, is Dega. and that is about the same dis as i am from KY. Speedway.
 
"I didn't say that there aren't any other forms of racing, but there's NONE with the guys that Nextel Cup racing has and people show up to see THEM."

And no other series has the same drivers as the IRL, except the IRL. Or any of the other series. DUH!
Click to expand...

But, there is some cross over. Schrader and Stewart and RGordon and many othres, even Lil'E do race in other non-NASCAR series. The driver's contract with his team may restrict him. But, NASCAR does not keep any driver from racing in other non-NASCAR races.
 
Eagle1 said:
This truly baffles me, I haven't read anyones post here being disrespectful.

It appears what you want is a good debate, (if you can call it that) of all ideas supporting your premis.
You are mistaking your "opinions" as fact and when pointed out that it is not fact you're being offended and feel we're being disrespectful.

Again I haven't seen once anyone question your sanity or intelligence level, if you're so sensative that people pointing out facts other than your belief offends you maybe you shouldn't start a thread which would open up such debate, because that IS what debating is.
Click to expand...

These are the statements I object to.
posted by boB "Nascar is not, not can it in any way, be construed by a NORMAL thinking person, as any type of monoply."
posted by boB
"I am amazed at all those who honestly believe the whole thing started with a bunch of moonshiners chasing each other around in some farmers cornfield."
I don't recall saying that.
posted by boB
"lappy, I am aware you are racing at a local level, but you're showing us all how little you know about the business of racing."
This statement is totally unnecessary---Lappy obviously feels he has the knowledge base to form an opinion and express it. Thats good enough for me and should be good enough for everyone else too.
posted by eagle 1
everything boB said is fact and maybe he gave you to much credit to understand......
What makes you think I didn't understand? Is it because I didn't come around to your way of thinking?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is to boB ...you posted "dsdjtlts, I fail to see where anyone has been disrespectful to you or any other poster to this thread." boB my post regarding "respect" was merely a reminder to those who feel they are right in their opinion and that others are wrong. Sometimes in the heat of it all, respect is lost...just a gentle reminder...no more no less.

Furthermore.....I still believe the governing body and the sanctioning body should be separate.
 
One last thing: Nascar sure does have a lot of fans in Canada - which is exactly why the ran a Busch race in Mexico.


Well, thanks for the spirited debate guys/gals. I can see we're just butting heads here so I'll politely step aside.

Go #17 at Dover!!!!!!
 
I guess I need a new member to tell me all about respect?
I don't think so.
It would appear to me that dsdjtlts has a bit more to learn about the folks who post here before he/she starts to lecture.

I respect the rights of anyone to have a differing opinion, when that opinion is based on facts.

If I KNOW the facts differ from someone's perception, I am going to try and show them, by giving them the facts, where and why their opinion differs and should be rethought.

Is that such a bad thing to do? To try and share knowledge with those who are misinformed?

It is obvious from the other posts on this thread that no one else seems to feel there has been any disrespect shown.
That makes me wonder just a bit.

Just to set the record straight for you. The sanctioning body is the governing body. Even if it's just the owner/promoter at a local track. The sanctioning body sets the rules, runs the show, and makes sure the bills are getting paid. If he owns the track, that's his business. According to your thinking, this is a monopoly and should be broken up?

I don't see what is so difficult for you to understand. This is a perfect example of what I've been trying to point out...you don't understand the operation nor the business relationships involved and you are unwilling to let anyone explain it to you.

The differences between a privately owned business and a public corporation have been thoroughly discussed already and those facts are still obviously being ignored.

Ignorance is understandable because that is merely the lack of knowledge. That is forgivable.

Stupidity is the unwillingness to accept knowledge and that is a waste of a human mind. That is not forgivable, it is tragic.

dsdjtlts, you're doing your best to convince me that you fall into the later catagory.

Enough said, have a nice day.
 
To no one in particular:
"You are entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts".
That, to me, is what a lot of posters fail to grasp. There is often times someone more knowledgeable about a particular subject than you. The best you can do is query, hoping to shed light on those areas that are not your strongest. From there you can re-examine your own opinions and adjust them as needed.
Otherwise, if you let a message board crap on your parade then you're taking things a little to seriously.
And, for those of you that have read me for awhile know I never do nor do I expect you too. But, it's all good. :katts:
 
boB said:
I guess I need a new member to tell me all about respect?
I don't think so.
It would appear to me that dsdjtlts has a bit more to learn about the folks who post here before he/she starts to lecture.

I respect the rights of anyone to have a differing opinion, when that opinion is based on facts.

If I KNOW the facts differ from someone's perception, I am going to try and show them, by giving them the facts, where and why their opinion differs and should be rethought.

Is that such a bad thing to do? To try and share knowledge with those who are misinformed?

It is obvious from the other posts on this thread that no one else seems to feel there has been any disrespect shown.
That makes me wonder just a bit.

Just to set the record straight for you. The sanctioning body is the governing body. Even if it's just the owner/promoter at a local track. The sanctioning body sets the rules, runs the show, and makes sure the bills are getting paid. If he owns the track, that's his business. According to your thinking, this is a monopoly and should be broken up?

I don't see what is so difficult for you to understand. This is a perfect example of what I've been trying to point out...you don't understand the operation nor the business relationships involved and you are unwilling to let anyone explain it to you.

The differences between a privately owned business and a public corporation have been thoroughly discussed already and those facts are still obviously being ignored.

Ignorance is understandable because that is merely the lack of knowledge. That is forgivable.

Stupidity is the unwillingness to accept knowledge and that is a waste of a human mind. That is not forgivable, it is tragic.

dsdjtlts, you're doing your best to convince me that you fall into the later catagory.

Enough said, have a nice day.
Click to expand...

I understand completely what you have said in your effort to educate me to the facts..I haven't disputed your facts. I am only saying my opinion is that the governing body and the sanctioning should be separate.
1. the governing body and the sanctioning body are the same. Allow me to give you an example why I believe it would be better for the 2 to be separate.
Let's assume/pretend the 2 ARE separate.....The recent incidents of the behavior of the drivers. Lets say Nascar's Mike Helton said this is unacceptable and these guys are going to be fined heavily, lose points and sit out 3 races. Now being separate they could do this and ICS could not dispute the decision. As it is now ICS & Nascar are one and the same and vice versa and how to or not to punish the drivers is totally left up to France.
And I believe he only considers the bottom line and not necessarily what is best for the sport. I would like to see decisions made for the betterment of the sport and not the pocketbook.

2. ignorance/stupidity is your perception and not relevant to the discussion.
 
What will it take for you to understand that ISC is the publicly held company which owns racetracks, amongst other investments. The France family were the founders of this company and they are still stockholders in it, but they still have to answer to their share holders.

ISC has no say at all in the running of NASCAR.

NASCAR is the sanctioning body and as such, the governing body. NASCAR is the sole property of the France family; they own it, they hire and fire the officials as they see fit. That is their business. THEY OWN IT!

ISC has no say at all as to how the show is run. Absolutely none!
 
Patrick9999 said:
One last thing: Nascar sure does have a lot of fans in Canada - which is exactly why the ran a Busch race in Mexico.


Well, thanks for the spirited debate guys/gals. I can see we're just butting heads here so I'll politely step aside.

Go #17 at Dover!!!!!!
Click to expand...

Certainly is amazing when some posters can't come up with an intelligent respose they pull crap out of their butts to throw in an arguement. Some posters you don't need to tell them they're stupid or try to prove it, they do it all by themselves. On the other hand it makes it a lot easier to know who you can have an intelligent discussion with an who you just ignore.

WTH does NASCAR having a Busch race in Mexico City have to do with this?

So you're claiming there aren't any fans in Canada?
In case you don't have a clue of the goings on with NASCAR, they do have a deal working to buy CASCAR. They must feel there's enough interset there to be working towards getting NASCAR racing up there.

Still trying to figure out why Mexico City was brought into this, was it because I said NASCAR is the most popular racing series in N. America?
In case your head is so far up your butt you weren't aware, Mexico is part of N. America, so infact by bringing it up you proved my point even better by showing how wide spread the interest is.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom