When Good is Bad - Fuel Milage Races

dpkimmel2001

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Good commentary from Dave Moody on this.....

In most professions, being good at what you do is cause for celebration. Unfortunately, when you build race tires for Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company, being good at what you do is sometimes a bad thing.

The first two races of the 2011 Chase for the NASCAR Sprint Cup have boiled down to fuel mileage. At both Chicagoland and New Hampshire Motor Speedway, drivers were forced to back out of the throttle in an effort to conserve fuel, drawing the ire of fans who understandably prefer the final laps of each race to be contested at full speed. Blame for the preponderance of fuel mileage races this season has landed squarely at the feet of Goodyear, whose engineers are building tires so fast and durable that teams now prefer to keep their cars on the racetrack during late-race caution periods, gambling on fuel where once they would have pitted for fresh rubber and a full tank of gasoline.

Goodyear engineer Rick Heinrich told reporter Mike Mulhern this week that the Akron, Ohio tire maker builds tires for optimum performance, believing that NASCAR’s top drivers and teams deserve nothing less. "You have to have a tire that's good for a full fuel run,” said Heinrich, “because you don't want to put a car out on tires not equivalent to the gas range."

Goodyear spokesman Stu Grant disputed the assertion that fuel mileage is appreciably different in NASCAR’s national divisions than it was in seasons past, saying, “Actually, the gas mileage thing is probably about the same now as it was years ago.” He added that new advances in track technology have changed the face of the sport, allowing teams to race further on a set of tires than ever before.

“The new asphalt going down on these race tracks is so much better than the old asphalt,” he said. “It is much tighter. For example, when was the last time you saw a (repaved track) break up and tear apart? You don't see that anymore… because they are very, very good at what they do. The new asphalt is much more compact, and consequently, you get no tire wear.”

Grant pointed to recent resurfacing projects at Talladega, Daytona, Las Vegas, Charlotte and Darlington, saying all five speedways are substantially different than they were before repaving. “Darlington is a (perfect) example,” he said. “On the old asphalt you would see two to three seconds (per lap) of tire fall off (during a fuel run). Now, you only see a fall off of two or three-tenths.” He warned that the newly repaved Phoenix International Raceway is likely to be the same, experiencing “no tire wear at all and no fall off in lap times."

While advances in track technology have played a role for the recent upswing in fuel mileage races, NASCAR also shoulders a portion of the blame. The sanctioning body rolled out a new race car in 2007 that is considerably stronger and more durable than its predecessor. Wrecks that once resulted in badly damaged racers and debris-strewn tracks now do not merit even a brief caution flag. The best way to kill a fuel mileage race is to throw a yellow flag with 25 laps to go. But these days, it doesn’t seem to happen like it used to.

NASCAR could solve the problem by throwing a “competition caution” in the final 25 laps of every race. That approach seems over-officious at best, and downright manipulative at worst. And unless the sanctioning body requires each team to pit for tires and fuel, there will be a crew chief who elects to roll the dice and remain on track, hoping to milk his fuel cell far enough to steal a checkered flag.

Clearly, there is no “quick fix” to the events of the last two weeks. In truth, not everyone agrees that a fix is even needed. Tony Stewart, for example, likely sees no need for a late-season change. He’s enjoying this recent fuel mileage trend just fine, thank you.

There is no question, however, that Goodyear can help remedy the recent rash of fuel mileage races by building a softer tire. The question is, how soft is too soft? Most fans still recall the 2008 Brickyard 400 at Indianapolis Motor Speedway, where excessive wear caused tires to fail in as little as eight laps, forcing NASCAR to mandate a maddening series of competition cautions that turned the event into a competitive and public relations debacle. No one in attendance at The Brickyard that day wishes to experience anything like it, ever again. But the prospect of eight more fuel mileage races to decide NASCAR’s 2011 champion is only slightly more palatable.

Clearly, Goodyear can do better. Or in this case, worse.

I think that the Brickyard 400 fiasco is somehow playing a role in all of this. I think Goodyear is so concerned about making the same mistake again that it's caused them to err on the side of caution.
 
Goodyear is in the business of selling tires and would like nothing more than people saying that their tires are "too good" and don't wear quick enough.

Who could blame them?
 
Goodyear is in the business of selling tires and would like nothing more than people saying that their tires are "too good" and don't wear quick enough.

Who could blame them?

True. This race really didn't bother me because we didn't see the whole field limping around the track. Stewart used great strategy, got a smoking fast pit stop, and didn't have to save at all.
 
I don't have a issue with races being decided by fuel mileage. All the competitors are racing under the same rules using the same size fuel tanks, the same refueling equipment and they know the distance they have to run.
They all take a gamble on making it to the end, just imagine if the last two races would have had a yellow with a lap or two to go......then they would have had to run some extra laps under yellow and Race the Green/White/Checker that would have really shook things up!

Goodyear is doing a great job with tires and it was proven yesterday that they can be abused to where they will wear out Junior wore out two right fronts with over aggresive camber gain settings.

Congrats Goodyear! I'd much rather see a car sputter to a stop out of fuel than to see them Hammering the Wall because a tire Blew Out!
 
I think Goodyear should offer 2 different tires. Like in F1, you can get the super soft, or just the soft tire.

And you can keep both kinds in your pit stalls. Makes for a good or bad decision. Either way, it would make the racing better me thinks.
 
I think Goodyear should offer 2 different tires. Like in F1, you can get the super soft, or just the soft tire.

And you can keep both kinds in your pit stalls. Makes for a good or bad decision. Either way, it would make the racing better me thinks.

That's a great idea.
 
I think Goodyear should offer 2 different tires. Like in F1, you can get the super soft, or just the soft tire.

And you can keep both kinds in your pit stalls. Makes for a good or bad decision. Either way, it would make the racing better me thinks.

That would be incredibly expensive for Goodyear and the teams! F1 uses the same tires at every track with just the 3 different compounds. NASCAR has different tires for each track and then theres left side and right sides that are different. We don't need to run off Goodyear!
 
I think Goodyear should offer 2 different tires. Like in F1, you can get the super soft, or just the soft tire.

And you can keep both kinds in your pit stalls. Makes for a good or bad decision. Either way, it would make the racing better me thinks.

It wont work. Hoosier and Goodyear used to both supply tires to NASCAR and the drivers would always take the tire with the most grip, every time.
 
ESPN made a big deal about the 2010 race at New Hampshire where Stewart ran out of fuel, giving the win to Bowyer.

Fuel Mileage Racing is nothing new. It's just that there are fewer late-race caution periods these days - for whatever reason.

I agree with Flash!

"Goodyear is doing a great job with tires and it was proven yesterday that they can be abused to where they will wear out Junior wore out two right fronts with over aggresive camber gain settings.

Congrats Goodyear! I'd much rather see a car sputter to a stop out of fuel than to see them Hammering the Wall because a tire Blew Out!"
 
ESPN made a big deal about the 2010 race at New Hampshire where Stewart ran out of fuel, giving the win to Bowyer.

Fuel Mileage Racing is nothing new. It's just that there are fewer late-race caution periods these days - for whatever reason.

I agree with Flash!

"Goodyear is doing a great job with tires and it was proven yesterday that they can be abused to where they will wear out Junior wore out two right fronts with over aggresive camber gain settings.

Congrats Goodyear! I'd much rather see a car sputter to a stop out of fuel than to see them Hammering the Wall because a tire Blew Out!"
x2
 
That would be incredibly expensive for Goodyear and the teams! F1 uses the same tires at every track with just the 3 different compounds. NASCAR has different tires for each track and then theres left side and right sides that are different. We don't need to run off Goodyear!

I don't think it's that complicated. Each team has 1 set of super grippy, short lap life tires they could use or not use during the race. Goodyear wouldn't need to do anything more than go to the grippiest tire they can, then estimate lap life for the tracks they are allowed on.

When a guy can run Richmond on 2 sets of left side tires, something is wrong.
 
My issue with fuel mileage is that I don't tune in to watch cars running around at half throttle. I want to see racing and that, IMO, is not racing.
 
I don't think it's that complicated. Each team has 1 set of super grippy, short lap life tires they could use or not use during the race. Goodyear wouldn't need to do anything more than go to the grippiest tire they can, then estimate lap life for the tracks they are allowed on.

When a guy can run Richmond on 2 sets of left side tires, something is wrong.

Then when the teams abuse these "Super Grippy Short Lap Life Tires" and stuff their race cars into the fence Goodyear will pack its tire truck up and leave NASCAR.
Goodyear is involved in sponsoring NASCAR for POSITIVE publicity they dont want their tires poppin like a 2 cent piece of bubble gum! Thats BAD PUBLICITY for them! The public dosent understand that race tires wear out/go flat/Blow Out because racers Abuse the hell out of them trying to get every last bit of speed.
 
I advocate tires that give up at least a second a lap in the late runs.
It would do more than just cure gas mileage runs.
It would also add more peaks and valleys or a wider performance band which would facilitate more passing.
It also would add or reinforce a good drivers technical skills.
You would have some on fresh stickers, slicing through the fields, and see the most skilled or finesse, come on stronger in the late runs.
I also think it would help reset back to a more healthy mechanical set up emphasis, which could reduce some of the Aero emphasis.


Seems like an easy call to me, Goodyear's job is to serve Nascar's interest, or the customer. If that doesn't suite their interest then find another vender, because Nascar has their customers too please.
 
I advocate tires that give up at least a second a lap in the late runs.
It would do more than just cure gas mileage runs.
It would also add more peaks and valleys or a wider performance band which would facilitate more passing.
It also would add or reinforce a good drivers technical skills.
You would have some on fresh stickers, slicing through the fields, and see the most skilled or finesse, come on stronger in the late runs.
I also think it would help reset back to a more healthy mechanical set up emphasis, which could reduce some of the Aero emphasis.


Seems like an easy call to me, Goodyear's job is to serve Nascar's interest, or the customer. If that doesn't suite their interest then find another vender, because Nascar has their customers too please.

They over reacted to the early problems they had with a 3,400 lb race car. They are slowly getting back to tires that wear in the track and actually wear out, but not as quickly as I would like.
 
Seems like an easy call to me, Goodyear's job is to serve Nascar's interest, or the customer. If that doesn't suite their interest then find another vender, because Nascar has their customers too please.

You do realize that Goodyear is a sponsor/supporter of NASCAR not an employee right?
I don't beleive NASCAR would ever be able to find another tire sponsor that could ever bring to the table what Goodyear has.
Find another way to fix your complaints about the racing. SAFE TIRES should'nt be messed with! Do you remember the Hoosier/Goodyear fiasco of the early 90's? Please learn from it we don't need anything like that ever again.
 
So NASCAR has tinkered with things to the point that more of you complain about the product than don't. And now, the ones that are complainign about the tinnkering are wanting more tinkering.

I don't like fuel mileage races at all, never have. But they've been around ever since there have been 500 mile races. And there always will be, it's part of the sport.

If you want to see races where guys are running fall after it and not worrying about fuel, get off the couch and get to the nearest short track.
 
From rock hard tires to ones that explode.

This conversation has gotten pretty rediculous.
 
You do realize that Goodyear is a sponsor/supporter of NASCAR not an employee right?
I don't beleive NASCAR would ever be able to find another tire sponsor that could ever bring to the table what Goodyear has.
Find another way to fix your complaints about the racing. SAFE TIRES should'nt be messed with! Do you remember the Hoosier/Goodyear fiasco of the early 90's? Please learn from it we don't need anything like that ever again.


Yes I realize Goodyear brings a lot to the table, but that doesn't mean they set terms, customers do. Nascar has pushed out sponsors before.


At no point have I called for a dangerous tire, and even the current ones can fail.
You can have mild deterioration that suffers against stop watches, while still maintaining psi.


I remember Hoosier approximately 93 or 94, have even raced a little on them. I even remember McCrary and Mcduffie qualifying well on them.


I have not been griping/moaning/ whatever about fuel mileage. In fact I think it is part of the game. Race/Resource management is part of the gig. I consider myself a purist or at least bent that way. I would rather see a driver I dislike to win by a lap, then to see a phantom caution, etc...


But that shouldn't disqualify me from offering my two cents, agreed upon or not.
Managing tires should be part of the competition too, it would also reward the best drivers. If I didn't believe I had invested my best common sense, and even a few racing scars, I would keep quiet.


Based on your racing pics my experience does not match yours. Honestly I would have liked to say I drove that 74, and won a few like you. But I done a little, and I don't think that my ideas is just Nascar bashing.


Peace, I hope that wasn't defensive or a regrettable post.
 
So NASCAR has tinkered with things to the point that more of you complain about the product than don't. And now, the ones that are complainign about the tinnkering are wanting more tinkering.

I don't like fuel mileage races at all, never have. But they've been around ever since there have been 500 mile races. And there always will be, it's part of the sport.

If you want to see races where guys are running fall after it and not worrying about fuel, get off the couch and get to the nearest short track.

This right here is spot on. I started up to New Berlin Saturday and the rain was nuts. I will be down at Winchester in a few weeks.
 
You can have mild deterioration that suffers against stop watches, while still maintaining psi

I have not been griping/moaning/ whatever about fuel mileage. In fact I think it is part of the game. Race/Resource management is part of the gig. I consider myself a purist or at least bent that way. I would rather see a driver I dislike to win by a lap, then to see a phantom caution, etc...

Peace, I hope that wasn't defensive or a regrettable post.

Good post, Greg!!
 
Only way to make fuel mileage races go away is to make every race a 50 lap feature. You will never have one again and the race will only take an hour of your day if that and you can get on with your sunday.
 
Yes I realize Goodyear brings a lot to the table, but that doesn't mean they set terms, customers do. Nascar has pushed out sponsors before.


At no point have I called for a dangerous tire, and even the current ones can fail.
You can have mild deterioration that suffers against stop watches, while still maintaining psi.


I remember Hoosier approximately 93 or 94, have even raced a little on them. I even remember McCrary and Mcduffie qualifying well on them.


I have not been griping/moaning/ whatever about fuel mileage. In fact I think it is part of the game. Race/Resource management is part of the gig. I consider myself a purist or at least bent that way. I would rather see a driver I dislike to win by a lap, then to see a phantom caution, etc...


But that shouldn't disqualify me from offering my two cents, agreed upon or not.
Managing tires should be part of the competition too, it would also reward the best drivers. If I didn't believe I had invested my best common sense, and even a few racing scars, I would keep quiet.


Based on your racing pics my experience does not match yours. Honestly I would have liked to say I drove that 74, and won a few like you. But I done a little, and I don't think that my ideas is just Nascar bashing.


Peace, I hope that wasn't defensive or a regrettable post.

Well said, and loaded with common sense. Many cup drivers are calling for a tire that falls off, and there is no question that they have the experience to make the right call.
 
This gets incredible fuel mileage and pit stall size would no longer be an issue either. Gentlemen, fire your engines!
 

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This gets incredible fuel mileage and pit stall size would no longer be an issue either. Gentlemen, fire your engines!

And if they happen to flop over on their side the driver can just reach out and push it back over :rolleyes:
 
Yes I realize Goodyear brings a lot to the table, but that doesn't mean they set terms, customers do. Nascar has pushed out sponsors before.


At no point have I called for a dangerous tire, and even the current ones can fail.
You can have mild deterioration that suffers against stop watches, while still maintaining psi.


I remember Hoosier approximately 93 or 94, have even raced a little on them. I even remember McCrary and Mcduffie qualifying well on them.


I have not been griping/moaning/ whatever about fuel mileage. In fact I think it is part of the game. Race/Resource management is part of the gig. I consider myself a purist or at least bent that way. I would rather see a driver I dislike to win by a lap, then to see a phantom caution, etc...


But that shouldn't disqualify me from offering my two cents, agreed upon or not.
Managing tires should be part of the competition too, it would also reward the best drivers. If I didn't believe I had invested my best common sense, and even a few racing scars, I would keep quiet.


Based on your racing pics my experience does not match yours. Honestly I would have liked to say I drove that 74, and won a few like you. But I done a little, and I don't think that my ideas is just Nascar bashing.


Peace, I hope that wasn't defensive or a regrettable post.

I understand completly! I too would like to see a tire fall off somewhat toward the end of the run, butt I believe the current track surfaces and chassis knowledge may have more to do with that than the construction of the tire itself. We also have to remember that vehicle dynamics, suspension, aerodynamics and just the plain amount of Knowledge going into our current cars is extremly advanced from the 90's and even early 00's.

Although watching the 88 burn off two right fronts in about 100 laps really makes me wonder?

I just can't help but place Safety over seeing a good race.

I have No problem with anyones opinions on this board, I find them very interesting..... I just look at things from a slightly different perspective is all.
 
I understand completly! I too would like to see a tire fall off somewhat toward the end of the run, butt I believe the current track surfaces and chassis knowledge may have more to do with that than the construction of the tire itself. We also have to remember that vehicle dynamics, suspension, aerodynamics and just the plain amount of Knowledge going into our current cars is extremly advanced from the 90's and even early 00's.

Although watching the 88 burn off two right fronts in about 100 laps really makes me wonder?

I just can't help but place Safety over seeing a good race.

I have No problem with anyones opinions on this board, I find them very interesting..... I just look at things from a slightly different perspective is all.


You make some good points, and life or at least discussion boards would be boring if we had the same pov.
 
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