When will we have another multitime champion? Hampered legacies of Kyle Busch and Kevin Harvick

Discussion in 'NASCAR chat' started by jaqua19, Nov 20, 2018.

  1. jaqua19

    jaqua19 Team Owner

    A little thought I had/writeup idea for if Harvick won the title this year, and if Kyle Busch won the title this year. Take a seat, cause it will be a little bit wordy. That said, I really hope some of you guys take the chance to read this and share your thoughts.

    Before the Race ended, I was thinking what a second Championship would do for Kevin Harvick's Legacy, and where he would rank all time. If Kevin Harvick won his second Championship this year, he would have been the first multi-time champion aside from Jimmie Johnson during the Jimmie Johnson era. He would have done this, after being a borderline Superstar driver with a championship-caliber season driving for RCR. Following this, in Elite equipment, he would have won two championships inarguably the most dominant four-season stretch of the last 25 years with wins and championships, excluding Johnson's run of five straight championships in the most competitive era. I think he would have had a case for a a borderline top 10 driver all time. However, he didn't get it done this year. Now a top 10 driver all time in Kevin Harvick just doesn't seem reasonable.

    What if Kyle Busch wins the second Championship this year after having a season for the first time ever where he was statistically the most dominant driver? Ignoring his inflated lower series accomplishments (though 200 NASCAR wins is a legacy feat), I now look at his potential legacy as a cup driver. Up to this season Kyle Busch has won more races since 2005 than anyone else in NASCAR with the exception of Jimmie Johnson, again, in the most competitive era in NASCAR. Through his first 14 years in a cup he has won more races than Kevin Harvick, and throughout his career has won races at the same rate as Tony Stewart, only to increase that rate the last four seasons. He has the wins, not at the rate that the best driver of this era has won, but he has wins, Youth, and longevity to the point where is cup win total will probably come close to the best driver of this era. Despite all of these wins, he has one cup championship. Kyle is already close, but a second Championship this year in my opinion would have solidified him already as a top 10 driver all time. However, he didn't get it done. So again, like Harvick, it is "what could have been?".

    My point here is, the best driver of this era is a 7 time champion, and won races at a rate far exceeding any other driver active during this time span, despite two really good drivers above, and other one time Champions over the last 15 years. This is during the most competitive era in NASCAR.

    So my point here, is that has the dominance of Johnson REALLY hamper the legacies of some drivers? A part of me feels like it is fair to say that both Kyle Busch and Kevin Harvick are borderline top 10 drivers all time, either of them winning a title this year would have solidified that. I think the fact that they raced against a driver with arguably the GOAT set of accomplishments diminishes the fact that both Kyle Busch and Kevin Harvick are amongst the best ever, on a tier beyond drivers they share accomplishments with, like Rusty and Bill.

    History may not show it that way, but I think mere context clouded the legitmate case that these two drivers are closer to the Cales, and DW tier of drivers than they are to the Rustys, and Bill Elliot tier of drivers, right above/with Tony Stewart.

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  2. This will most likely spark a spirited debate. I’ll get it out of the way now, all of JJs titles were in the chase era, that changes the prism in which one looks at recent accomplishments.

    That being said, forgetting the chase, there wasn’t a more dominant driver/CC combo than Cheatin’ Chad and Jimmy, once they got their footing.

    The past 15 years they’ve been the best. Takes two to tango though, JJ wouldn’t be who he is/was w/o Chad.

    All that said, it doesn’t ( or shouldn’t ), take away from what Happy or Kryle have done. Kevin was a hamstrung with RCR equipment for a bit, KyB not so much with JGR. When their careers are over, both will be looked upon quite favorably. I’d give the nod to KyB over HH, in terms of pure wheel skill.
    FLRacingFan likes this.
  3. bigspud

    bigspud Team Owner

    kyle just won the reg season championship'
    the gong show cup has no meaning in nascar history.
    its much easier to be manipulate 10 races than 36
    Joker and Mopardh9 like this.
  4. AuzGrams

    AuzGrams Team Owner

    Multiple time champions is a better storyline for the sport than a 5-10 1 time champions in my opinion.
  5. jaqua19

    jaqua19 Team Owner

    I give KB an edge too. 2002-2018, only 2 drivers have won 2 or more titles. From 2006-2018, one driver has won more than one championship. You have your champions, and your great champions. I think Harvick or Busch had a chance to really seperate themselves from the pack of all the other champions of the last 13 years.

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  6. jaqua19

    jaqua19 Team Owner

    Thats kind of my point. History may not remember some of these other drivers for the legends they are due to one driver being dominant.

    But they both will ultimately be 50+ race winners who have had multiple championship calibur seasons.

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  7. kkfan91

    kkfan91 Taking a 10-200

    Kyle has to win his first one first.
  8. dpkimmel2001

    dpkimmel2001 Team Owner

    Joey Logano could easily be the next multi-time champion before Harvick or Busch. Would that really change fans opinions of the accomplishments of either Harvick or Busch? Would Logano winning a 2nd championship before the pair make Logano the premier driver of the three? Some would say so. For me, it shows just how much the value of a championship has been degraded by the current format.
    Blaze, FLRacingFan, Truex_rox and 4 others like this.
  9. Charlie Spencer

    Charlie Spencer Short tracks and road courses rule.

    This, with whipped cream and sprinkles.
  10. DIDIT

    DIDIT Old School Fan

    To me second is an interesting position. It happens in all sports and categories. Many times in a different era that second place would be a multi time champion and they could possibly qualify as one of the best of all time. For me ranking any sports team or person as one of the 10 best of all time is mostly fodder for discussion and nothing more.

    As for the driver of the 18, he could have been one of the all time best, but he lacks the complete package and self control to qualify in my opinion.
    LewTheShoe and Team Penske like this.
  11. AdoubleU24

    AdoubleU24 Team Owner

    It's no different than what goes on in other sports. Tiger overshadowed a LOT of great golfers over the last 20 years with his ridiculous dominance. In tennis, Federer and Nadal took a lot of wins from younger guys that in any other era would have been multi time champions. It happens, but those that pay close attention know who the greats are and who isn't, regardless of the big trophy.

    It's harder to win it now than it ever has been, both because of format and competition. Regardless of how dominant of a season you have the odds say you probably aren't going to win the cup when you get to Homestead because of the way it's set up.
    Charlie Spencer likes this.
  12. Mopardh9

    Mopardh9 Team Owner

    Especially when the final 4 are guaranteed special treatment at Homestead.
    wi_racefan, Bucky Badger and Dr_B_UNC like this.
  13. Formerjackman

    Formerjackman Team Owner

    With the utter randomness of the current format, it's going to be hard to win a large number of championships. You can no longer just outperform the other teams over the course of the season, you have to beat three other rivals heads up in ONE race. You could throw darts and get about as accurate in predicting who the champion will be. I suppose if guys like Kyle makes the final four ten or twelve times over the course of his career wich could last 30+ years,the odds say he will win three or four, but who knows? NASCAR has gotten EXTREMELY lucky that so far none of the championships have been decided by some absurd quirk of luck.
    FLRacingFan and Charlie Spencer like this.
  14. Snappy D

    Snappy D 2017 Pick Em Champion 2018 Bold Predictor

    I think the current point system hampers drivers leagacies. Tell us fans who wish it were the old way and get over it it’s been 15 years but the Chase, Chase 2 and now the playoffs have screwed with Jeff Gordon’s legacy, May have ran off ol Carl, Harv should have 3 championships (2 for sure) and Busch should have another I believe (read jayski’s full season points briefly before I started my day.) We’ll never see a 7 time champion again with this one race Miami Bowl Format....I’m not sure we will see 3 or 4. The one race winner take all is so random. I want to see drivers greatness rise to the top like how it used to in terms of when they driver retired say he had 70 something wins and 4 championships. That stood out. Now we might get Kyle Busch who might win 80-90 something odd Cup races and what a travesty it’d be if he only won 1 or 2 Cups. I value witnessing Greatness over Game 7 moments. That’s why I’ve hated the Chase and Playoffs since Day 1 going on 14 years now.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  15. StandOnIt

    StandOnIt Farm Truck

    The odds are stacked against a multi year champion. How can you dominate a whole year anymore?, it's impossible to coast the last few races milking your big lead it isn't set up that way. I'm hopeful that when Nascar gets out from under their existing contract or sooner if it is possible, they will change to a better points system.
  16. Snappy D

    Snappy D 2017 Pick Em Champion 2018 Bold Predictor

    I put the emphasis on “Game 7 Moments”....how much more amazing would it be if those types of deals had happened organically? There’s a reason people still view the 92 season finale as the greatest race of all time....
  17. Snappy D

    Snappy D 2017 Pick Em Champion 2018 Bold Predictor

    That day will come.....I wonder what they will do when the egg is on their face that day.
  18. StandOnIt

    StandOnIt Farm Truck

    Nascar is not awarding the championship to the driver/team that has the best driving record. They got away from that years ago. It isn't a matter of this version or that version was better than this one with me. Racing doesn't need a chase, playoff or whatever they choose to call it.
    Blaze, FLRacingFan and Joker like this.
  19. Joker

    Joker #1 Harvick Fan

    Oh please, Kyle will certainly win a championship or two more, even in this wonky format. I'm more worried about Kevin. He seems like the type of guy to up and retire one day, no warning.
    Blaze and FLRacingFan like this.
  20. IanMcVittie

    IanMcVittie Team Owner

    I don’t think that the way NASCAR crowns a champ is legitimate so they have no bearing on how I view a driver’s record or legacy. This is JMO and I am not interested in arguing about it please and thank you
    FLRacingFan and Charlie Spencer like this.
  21. Snappy D

    Snappy D 2017 Pick Em Champion 2018 Bold Predictor

    Sure he will. But when he retires I’m sure we will be asking ourselves how many more could he have won if we had a less random format?? It’s a shame him and Harvick arnt Cup Champions this year, their year was seriously amazing.
    Joker and IanMcVittie like this.
  22. IanMcVittie

    IanMcVittie Team Owner

    I agree as this lottery style champ doesn’t work for the reasons you stated
  23. Privateer

    Privateer Crew Chief

    I think the making the championship more of a crapshoot as the final 4 thing has done will democratize the championship (case in point, Joey Logano, by any quantifiable measure of the rest of the 2018 season, the weakest driver of the 4 at Homestead with a chance) while also meaning we're never going to see anyone track up titles because as good as you are for the year, you're only going to have a 25% chance. So if you got there say 8 times, you're going to win on average twice. Last season Martin Truex was lucky in the sense of he was the best guy and actually won the title.

    What'll happen is there will be more historical champions but less legends.
    FLRacingFan likes this.
  24. DaBiff1618

    DaBiff1618 Team Owner

    The value of a championship in NASCAR has been greatly diminished with this current championship 4 format imo. You’re never going to have a dominant driver like the 48 again because a winner take all race opens up so many different variables. I think people will look more at wins from now on. The only way we’ll ever be rid of it is if someone like chase Elliott has a dominant season and gets screwed out of the title. As bittersweet as the finale was being a fan of Rowdy, Harvick, and Logano, I’ll just pretend this was Joey’s 2015 championship he likely shoulda won. Rowdy had no business winning it that year, but probably shoulda won it last year or this year. It all evens out I guess. But there will be no more dynasties and I think sports need that
    Blaze, FLRacingFan, Wrangler1 and 3 others like this.
  25. Snappy D

    Snappy D 2017 Pick Em Champion 2018 Bold Predictor

    With caution I’ll say, It never evened out for Gordon......(2004,2007,2014) 2015 was as close at it could have played out. The 24 had no business racing for a championship that year, and if he had won I’d be happy as hell but I also would have felt the 22 got screwed he was the best all year.
  26. Revman

    Revman Deal with it.

    I fail to see how this format has not crowned a worthy champion ever. Yeah, there are arguments for and against for each, but nothing outlandish. I heard some of the bull**** about Joey. Really? Watch the damn season. Practices and qualifying. Listen. Watch. Study. Joey had been getting faster. Found the speed to make him relevant. Found the consistency to make him a contender. Went out and won the damn thing. Champion. Do not even start with the Kyle Busch Regular Season Champion stuff. I am proud of that. I have the hat. However, it is not the Championship they all wanted, and that is not the ultimate prize. Did Joey have a better season than the big three? Who gives a sh!t. That's not the game. Champions win when the Championship is on the line. He did.
  27. Revman

    Revman Deal with it.

    I don't know that I completely agree, but this is fair.
  28. TexasRaceLady

    TexasRaceLady Plank Owner Contributor

    Absolutely. Great comment.
    Revman, Nitro Dude and Matthew2470 like this.
  29. DaBiff1618

    DaBiff1618 Team Owner

    THIS ISN’T STICK AND BALL SPORTS. If some people want to like this current format that’s fine, but at the rate attendance and ratings are declining it’s obvious that this is not helping the sport. To criticize those fans for recognizing a gimmick when they see one is unfair. Yes, Logano had a solid season. But 3 wins isn’t equal to 8 no matter how you spin it. He was a 4th or 5th place car all year and won the title. Doesn’t make the entirety of the season worth watching, and it makes the individual races hard to enjoy as they beat us over the head from February to November about a one race gimmick.
  30. Nitro Dude

    Nitro Dude Hauler Driver and Cylinder Head Maintenance

    I don't put as much stock into back to back championships as some do. I don't feel that it makes the series look any better or worse. NHRA is going strong and it's no secret that their main draw are the nitro cars and there has only been 1 back to back champion in the nitro classes from 2010 - 2018. As far as points go, keeping points for the whole season didn't seem to help the Lucas Oil Boat series because they just lost Lucas Oil and at this time they do not even have a series for 2019.
  31. Snappy D

    Snappy D 2017 Pick Em Champion 2018 Bold Predictor

    I bolded and highlighted, I wish I could have T shirts made of that quote. In the NBA Finals The Cavaliers didnt play the Rockets, Warriors, Blazers and Celtics. It was team vs team. Until that happens in NASCAR , I will never understand the logic that this is a playoff.
    Blaze, Charlie Spencer and DaBiff1618 like this.
  32. ReturnTrip

    ReturnTrip Team Owner

    NASCAR lost any chance of comparing the new guard with the old when they went to this format. It's hard enough to compare the segue drivers like Gordon and Stewart to a guy like Johnson. With the plate circus coming to town next year even wins will be hard to compare.

    Titles are empty to me these days. Joey had a couple of good races out of 36, that's about it. His stats are eerily similar to Matt Kenseth in 2003. The difference being Matt was hot at the beginning and Joey at the end. I respect Matt's title more.
    Snappy D, FLRacingFan and DaBiff1618 like this.
  33. jaqua19

    jaqua19 Team Owner

    I agree. This thread had turned into an anti playoff thread.

    Though, it is still relevant, this thread is more about the legacy of these two drivers statistically. Kyle Busch has made 4 of them, Harvick 3, Joey 3. Guys CAN win multiple titles.

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  34. Team Penske

    Team Penske Team Owner

    In the entire history of Nascar, you have 3 men with the title "7 time champion."
    Each of those me won in different eras of Nascar, all under different formats and rules.
    The NASCAR of Today has continued to evolve in an effort to get the cars as close as possible.
    You have teams with the best money can buy, you have teams with the best combo driver/CC,
    You have teams that fall just short of having the best and you have drivers who could be the best but don't have the teams.
    One man in each era stood tall above the rest.
    The system today is geared to those who can either win a race or place top 16 in points.
    We have seen Brad K. win the most races in a season and could not get out of the second round.
    We also saw a driver with no wins point his way to the final 4.

    I just love today's racing. Drivers no longer on cruise who are fighting for points 3 times a race.
    ( mind you they need to stop the caution and keep the racing going).
    Never in my life has racing been this good and to top it all off, my driver did what Dale E. and J. Gordon did to win their championships.
    Consistency with out the games and whining. :D
    Mike Crayne likes this.
  35. AdoubleU24

    AdoubleU24 Team Owner

    I'm gonna file this right next to "the fix is in, Gordon will win the cup" from 2015, and "Bowman is the next Jimmie Johnson" from last year.
  36. jaqua19

    jaqua19 Team Owner

    I think people need to also realize but changing to a season-long point system is not going to bring fans back. There is going to be a point when this system is all NASCAR fans will know. Fans of the older system are going to age and move on. There's too much time in between, changing the system to a year-long based format will not do anything for the the sport, or the short attention span of today's modern society. Holding Out for an old school system is more nostalgic stubbornness than a legitimate solution at this point. It wont make Nascar better.

    Im 26 and can hardly remember 2003 and its prior seasons. You think younger fans will? You also think future fans who were never exposed to the older system wouldnt get bored from NASCAR switching to a season long format wouldnt? Think again.

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    Nitro Dude likes this.
  37. StandOnIt

    StandOnIt Farm Truck

    I find using anything Nascar has done to decrease or increase interest is an unproven way of looking at the issues, but many do just that to justify their viewpoint. Using young or older fans is just as unproven. I don't think younger fans are that naive or ignorant or scatterbrained to understand the difference between a season long points battle or the super complicated three tiered points reset, with stage points and stage wins and this and that ending with a 4 car monte for the championship.
    Snappy D likes this.
  38. IanMcVittie

    IanMcVittie Team Owner

    I was reading something about pro stock cutting back on events mainly due to the popularity of Funny Cars and Top Fuel
    Snappy D likes this.
  39. Nitro Dude

    Nitro Dude Hauler Driver and Cylinder Head Maintenance

    It goes much deeper then that. They have been having problems with that class for a long time.
    Snappy D and IanMcVittie like this.
  40. DaBiff1618

    DaBiff1618 Team Owner

    So two wrong predictions have what to do with the fact the playoff is a gimmick? Cool story bro

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