Whizzer rants, again

Whizzer

Whizzer

Gig'em
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
11,711
Points
1,013
Location
NJ to NC to FL
<span style='color:blue'>Here I go again. Another rant on the latest change (actually a non-change) in NASCAR.

What a fool I have been. Naive' is an understatement but calling myself a fool, fits.

Before the penalty was handed down by NASCAR hierarchy on the Tony Stewart infraction committed at Sonoma, my immediate thought was, he will be suspended for one race. A prescedent had been set in previous incidents, one setting Harvick down in a NASCAR Nextel race for disrespect and rough driving in a Busch Race and the other when Jimmy Spencer was set down for taking a swing at Kurt Busch after a Nextel race.

But memories relived as a child when I did or feared something wrong and thinking upon awaking the next morning, things would be different. Instead, the dawn brought the reality of NASCAR.

After Mike Helton explained so eloquently, the penalty against Tony Stewart and why it was instituted, it all made sense.
"The penalty speaks for itself", Helton stated. That was the beginning and end of the official explanation. Read this as, Tony is in a championship hunt, has a BIG sponsor and is a star.

Friday night on the last lap of the Busch race at Daytona, a dash for the win put Earnhardt, Junior into the wall, and I thought, what a darn shame. I never liked this type of racing but NASCAR has accepted it for years with a sort of an "anything goes on the last lap" type of attitude.

BUT WAIT !!!!!!!! GOODNESS GRACIOUS !!!!!!!!! "It ain't over 'til it's over", sez Yogi Berra. Oh how true !!! Yogi might have been guilty of using bad English, but he was a smart man.

Now NASCAR assesses a penalty against Leffler for rough driving??? What is this ??? Why was Leffler given a penalty ?? Rough driving ?? Blocking ?? Slipping into Earnhardt, Junior ?? Certainly not wrecking Waltrip !!

And like the child over sixty years ago, I went to bed Friday evening thinking the there was no wrong committed by NASCAR standards and the bitter feelings between the drivers would be righted by morning. Sleep came Friday night and the sun rose Saturday morning. And NASCAR had done what they did earlier in the week proclaiming, "the penalty speaks for itself". But the penalty for what ???

In the incidents involving Stewart, Spencer and Harvick, the reason for the penalty was clear. The tactic taken by Leffler was no different than the same move put into use by many other drivers in similar circumstances, with substantially worse results, while NASCAR watched and never issuing a penalty.

Funny, but somehow, Bristol and Terry LaBonte come to mind but that was a different Earnhardt, a different race and a different time. There was no penalty there. Maybe who the participants were did make the difference.

But, NAH !!!! That is a conspiracy theory and besides, boB hates conspiracy theories. Doesn't believe in them.

Please, dear reader, do not excuse the sarcasm. If any one organization deserves it, NASCAR does. :dual9mm: </span>
 
Whizzer, I feel your pain.

The only possible difference I can see between the punishment handed out to Jimmy and Tony's is that Jimmy used his fist to hit Kurt. Vickers was very clear that Tony didn't slug him.

I'm not trying to excuse NASCAR --- the Etch-a-Sketch they use for the rule book has to be worn out by now.

I'm a bit ambivalent about the loss of position of Leffler for rough driving. The Mikey incident I call just racing --- there really wasn't enough room. Blocking Junior would have been fine --- deliberately running him into the wall, with the potential of taking out most of the field --- that was a bit much.
 
Originally posted by Lap3Forever@Jul 5 2004, 04:32 PM
I thought Harvick got in troble cause he spun a guy twice in that truck race.
Click to expand...
Harvick got in trouble for telling the crew over the radio he was going to take care of Coy. Then Harvick went onto the track and spun Gibbs .

Harvick was summoned to the NASCAR wood shed. He drove his truck to the trailer, climbed out and told a NASCAR official standing nearby, "If they want to speak to me I'll be in my motorhome". Harvick then walked away.

Like Jim Crochey(?) sang in one song, "don't tug on Supermans cape", and Harvick tugged on NASCAR's cape by giving them the impression Harvick thought he was more important than they were. An egregious error by a youth full of himself. He was suspended for the combination of the spin and the disrespect to the laws of NASCAR and the penalty was NASCAR's way of telling him who was really important and who was really in charge.
 
The entire rant thing is because of the inconsistency of NASCAR and the recent decisions. TRL, we could discuss the Stewart incident 'till the cows come home and most likely never reach agreement. I would be more acceptable of the decision had NASCAR offered something other than "the penalty speaks for itself".

The penalty on Leffler incident however, was chickenshLt. It was no different than any other driver had done in any other number of races on the last lap resulting in more dastardly results while NASCAR never issued any penalty.
The thing is, NASCAR sends the wrong message to the drivers. It has gotten to the point where a facetious observation is made that a driver must call NASCAR on the radio and ask their permission prior to make blocking maneuvers and questionable passes to avoid a penalty for something that has been accepted for years.

I could care less who the driver involved is or in this instance, what the penalty issued, was. What is important is there was a penalty issued.
Recent penalties or lack thereof, make it pretty obvious NASCAR does things to benefit and/or harm specific drivers or teams. All I look for is equal treatment and consistent rulings.

EIRI (Except In Rare Instances) rulings that change after a precedent has been set, or issuing of a solitary penalty for an offense that has been committed every week for the past twenty years with more serious results is creating a black eye for the sport.

All NASCAR need do to get it right is be consistent and fair in all decisions by using standards and prescribed penalties. Then the discussions of whether Earnhardt, Stewart, Jeff Gordon or Harvick being treated differently will go away and create faith in the system once again.

Maybe as I get older I get crotchety or something. But to tell ya the truth TRL, after all the years of either being a part of or a fan of NASCAR, seeing and accepting the growth and changes and still there is little reason to find credibility from the front office when it comes to fair and equitable decisions where the participants are concerned.

As far as I am concerned, the fans DO NOT have a say in the way the organization is run as that promotes the tail wagging the dog.
We, the fans, do have the right to expect consistency and fairness.
Thank you for giving me the floor. It is now time for me to go work, or play, whichever you choose to use, on one of my John Deere garden tractors. :D
 
Whizzer,

You state that Leffler did nothing that a number of other drivers haven't done on a number of ocassions.

Can you refer me to the restrictor plate race where the following happened and the driver was not penalized:

* Second place car makes contact with the first place car causing the first place car to spin out.
* Second place car (now in first) runs up the track and causes a new second place car into the wall via contact.

In my opinion, it is one thing to block on a plate track and another altogether to run someone into the wall on purpose.

I've heard the statement that Leffler didn't do anything that a lot of other drivers haven't done from a number of people. I honestly can't recall that set of circumstances having happened recently.
 
Originally posted by TonyB@Jul 5 2004, 02:11 PM
Whizzer,

You state that Leffler did nothing that a number of other drivers haven't done on a number of ocassions.

Can you refer me to the restrictor plate race where the following happened and the driver was not penalized:

* Second place car makes contact with the first place car causing the first place car to spin out.
* Second place car (now in first) runs up the track and causes a new second place car into the wall via contact.

In my opinion, it is one thing to block on a plate track and another altogether to run someone into the wall on purpose.

I've heard the statement that Leffler didn't do anything that a lot of other drivers haven't done from a number of people. I honestly can't recall that set of circumstances having happened recently.
Click to expand...
Talladega, maybe about four years ago. Bobby Labonte drove Bobby Hamilton into the wall (or was it the other way around?) which caused the big one. I see what Leffler did to Junior the same as what Jeff Gordon did to Rusty at Bristol and the like. If you penalize one, you have to penalize the other, and vice versa. Because it was an Earnhardt on the receiving end, there had to be a penalty in Nascar's eyes.

:bslfag:
 
Alot of people seem to have this idea that Leffer hit Earnhardt on purpose. I didn't see it that way. No dout he went up to block. As many do on RP tracks. It looked like Leffer mis judged or a spotter not telling him he wasn't clear. Either way I think it was a racing deal that cost both and didn't deserve the 1 sec penalty. :cheers:
 
May I refer you all to the thread, "Controversy Again?"
Everything posted there is right ON!!!!!
The fallacy of rehashing this is useless.
Jason was singled out by NASCAR officials for
a move that he did not deliberately plan! JR was blocking.
Blocking is "supposed" to be a no-no according to NASCAR the other week. LOL
Of course, we all know that TRL's reference to NASCAR's "Etch-a-sketch"
rule book is not too dam far-fetched!!!
The NASCAR rule game is to make them up to fit
the situation and the drivers involved.
Even Mikey, on MRN radio said he would probably have done the
same thing Jason did under the same circumstances!!!!!
Jason's penalty STINKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Originally posted by TonyB@Jul 5 2004, 01:11 PM
Whizzer,

You state that Leffler did nothing that a number of other drivers haven't done on a number of ocassions.

Can you refer me to the restrictor plate race where the following happened and the driver was not penalized:

* Second place car makes contact with the first place car causing the first place car to spin out.
* Second place car (now in first) runs up the track and causes a new second place car into the wall via contact.

In my opinion, it is one thing to block on a plate track and another altogether to run someone into the wall on purpose.

I've heard the statement that Leffler didn't do anything that a lot of other drivers haven't done from a number of people. I honestly can't recall that set of circumstances having happened recently.
Click to expand...
First of all let me say Whizzer I agree with you on everything "including" the Tony Stewart penalty, and you know when I believe circumstances warrent I will defend Tony.


Tony I believe Sterlin Marlin (2nd place car) spun Jeff Gordon (1st place car) a couple years ago in the 500 but didn't get penalized for that. He got penalized for getting out of his car under red flag attempting to fix his fender.
On XM radio Michael gave an interview where he said, " Jason didn't do anything I wouldn't have done under the circumstances."
Seems to be a MUCH bigger issue in fans minds than the drivers.

Further more, you can insist you know what Jason was thinking, "and Know he intended to put Jr into the wall". I don't believe that for 1 minute.
A Daytona race is a Daytona race regardless if it's in Feb. or July as far as these drivers feel for winning it. I don't think Jason has the finesse to execute a smooth blocking manuver like that and he miss judged. Otherwise you'd have to believe his thoughts were," I'm going to slam Jr and Myself into the wall." Which doesn't make a lot of sense. At that moment I believe all Jason was thinking about was winning the race and he tried something he'd seen done many many times by others, he just misjudged.
A hard racing deal trying to win the race, nothing more.

And to be completely honest here, I believe Jr had control of his own throttle pedal and brake pedal. When he saw Jason coming he could've made the decission to use one or the other, and dive below Jason. That would've put Jason in the wall and Jr in the lead.

JMHO
 
*kicking back, watching the realization of things I've preached for 25 years dawn on more folks, enjoying the moment thoroughly*
 
I must not have made that very clear:

Point me to the Restictor Plate Race where a driver did both of these on the final lap in rapid succession and did not receive a penalty:

* Make contact with the leader from behind causing the leader to spin out

AND

* After assuming the lead, make contact with the new second place car causing it to go into wall.

----

I'm well aware of the fact that cars have made contact of race tracks before. And I'm well aware that cars will make contact on race tracks again. IMHO, it was Leffler's overly agressive driving (as demonstrated by the two incidents coming so closely together) that caused NASCAR to react the way it did.

And NASCAR penatly wasn't unqiue. I seem to recall a current driver having being penalized out of win for "agressive driving" on a road course.
 
The entire rant thing is because of the inconsistency of NASCAR and the recent decisions. TRL, we could discuss the Stewart incident 'till the cows come home and most likely never reach agreement. I would be more acceptable of the decision had NASCAR offered something other than "the penalty speaks for itself".
Click to expand...

Whizzer, I agree with you 100% on this.
 
Perhaps the difference is one guy racing for his livelyhood and the other racing for his ego.
 
Originally posted by Patrick9999@Jul 5 2004, 05:28 PM
Perhaps the difference is one guy racing for his livelyhood and the other racing for his ego.
Click to expand...
Now that's one of the most rational things I've seen on here in some time. :cheers:
 
Yeh that makes a lot of sense, Lefler needed that win to bolster his reputation or lack there of. I really don't think he wanted to wreck himself or Jr., just misjudged or was told by the spotter he was clear when he really wasn't. A win at Daytona is huge , no matter if it is in Feb. or July. For Lefler that would have been the biggest moment of his career .....winning at Daytona. I think though that we are losong sight of what really is happening, that being Nascars' inability to govern themselves. They need "CONCRETE" rules, not something that seems to fit the situation or driver when they feel it is warranted.
 
Originally posted by TonyB@Jul 5 2004, 08:36 PM
I must not have made that very clear:

Point me to the Restictor Plate Race where a driver did both of these on the final lap in rapid succession and did not receive a penalty:

* Make contact with the leader from behind causing the leader to spin out

AND

* After assuming the lead, make contact with the new second place car causing it to go into wall.

----

I'm well aware of the fact that cars have made contact of race tracks before. And I'm well aware that cars will make contact on race tracks again. IMHO, it was Leffler's overly agressive driving (as demonstrated by the two incidents coming so closely together) that caused NASCAR to react the way it did.

And NASCAR penatly wasn't unqiue. I seem to recall a current driver having being penalized out of win for "agressive driving" on a road course.
Click to expand...
Tony, you made yourself very clear in why you feel NASCAR made the decision they did.

As for comparable incidents, can you say Ernie Irvan??
A driver who caused several accidents in a single race at Talledega 1989(?). Irvan caused two or three crashes that afternoon with "overly aggressive" driving.

My thought is, if we continue to debate this penalty, and the logic is, "IMHO, it was Leffler's overly agressive driving (as demonstrated by the two incidents coming so closely together) that caused NASCAR to react the way it did".

You obviously feel the similarity seems to be the time frame separating the incidents moreso than the seriousness of injuries and other cars involved or the frequency of one driver causing more than one or two incidents in the same race.

This deal was no different than accidents caused by Irvan, one one of which resulted in a serious injury to a driver and to the best of my recollection, NASCAR never issued a penalty.
The difference was the time separation between incidents and frequency of erratic driving by Irvan. IOW, Irvan had a history of aggressive driving.

In either situation, I fail to understand a penalty on the last lap, a/k/a the forgiving lap, a/k/a the "anything goes" lap. The same last lap where cars were wrecked in order to win and always overlooked by NASCAR. Until now. So the question is, why now??

The argument of it being a restrictor plate race should have no bearing on a penalty. If an aggressive driving infraction penalty is issued it should be the same no matter where the venue and for specific reasons and not EIRI.

Meanwhile I am sitting here scratching my head trying to figure out what correlation there is between a driver having a win taken because of "overly aggressive" driving on a road course (by comparison to a restrictor plate track and not having two separate racing incidents within seconds of one another) nearly fifteen years ago, and the last lap incident in 2004 of the Busch race at Daytona.

Since that penalty by NASCAR, there have been more than twenty incidents of aggressive driving on the last lap at different venues that were similar in nature with no penalties assessed.

The magic word here is INCONSISTENCY.
 
Okay, I admit...........I did not see the racing incident with Leffler. Got a step-daughter moved in a couple weeks ago and I sort of have to do other things on the weekends besides watch NASCAR. :( Let cutie and I get her back on her feet and we can go back to that 2 races a weekend thing!! :cheers:

But, one thing comes to mind that I'm not sure some are thinking about. This year NASCAR has stated that it is putting it's foot down on racing incidents............and if I remember correctly a big part of the fans were screaming for just that. Everyone here seems to be saying that NASCAR is inconsistant with the penalties it hands out. But, are they really? Last season NASCAR got tougher than in the past (Jimmy Spencer/Kurt Busch.......and was it last year with Kevin Harvick/Greg Biffle? Or the year before?). Anyway, assuming NASCAR is being true to their word (and there is no reason to believe otherwise judging from this season) then it's a whole new ball game. And when it's a whole new ball game you can't go back and compare to last season...........let alone 2, 3, 4 or 5 years ago.

I know, I'm defending NASCAR again.............but it always seems to be a one sided arguement. Just a little something to think about.
 
Originally posted by Eagle1@Jul 5 2004, 01:52 PM
And to be completely honest here, I believe Jr had control of his own throttle pedal and brake pedal. When he saw Jason coming he could've made the decission to use one or the other, and dive below Jason. That would've put Jason in the wall and Jr in the lead.

JMHO
Click to expand...
Thats easy for you to say, you're not driving door to door at 200 mph.
 
DE.... I agree with your last post to some degree, but what Nascar needs is a SET OF RULES. Not this make it up as we go along stuff, it is getting old, hurting the sport, and making me think sometimes that it is really "fixed" to some extent. Come on....it is time Nascar comes out with a rule book that addresses situations like the one that occured friday night. There needs to be rules in print in an official rule book that says a driver can't block on the last lap or any lap. This gentlemans' agreement or what ever you want to call it just isn't flying. Why should a driver give up position to another driver , especially on the last turn of the last lap of a race? You are "racing" for the WIN, that is the whole point after all ...racing, not letting the other guy win. Nascar should sit down , print out a rule book that is accesible to the drivers, crew chiefs, and fans so that there is no shadow of a doubt that there are rules that have to be followed no matter who you are! :angry:
 
I can't argue with that Mopar! :) In fact I've called for just that before.............a set of rules that are cast in words before the season starts and we live with it until next season. But, y'all all know how that will play if a rule has a "loophole" or flaw. :D Someone, be it a media someone or owner someone will whine and cry till daylight about being "wronged" by some "arbitrary" rule that NA$CA$H put in the book. The way NASCAR does it is a little flawed............I agree. But it's the way the rules have been enforced for over 50 years. I"m not sure a hard copy of rules would make it better........in fact, I can see a lot of problems with it the way this sport is organized. You got the fans, you got the owners, you got the media, you got the drivers, you got the historians, you got the politicians, you got a mess of people out here who are never going to agree. I simply say, let's enjoy the racing as it is.........."flaws" and all. Who really cares if it's perfect? It needs work..........but it is a work in progress. It's the best I've seen yet. :cheers:
 
If Nascar insists on showing DEJr favoritism - especially at RP tracks - than some of those who are not his fans are going to complain.

Even those non band wagon, non-johnny-come-latley fans.
 
First thing:
NASCAR does indeed issue a printed rulebook to the drivers, team owners and crewchiefs. Not too sure, but if other members want to have one I believe they have to buy a copy. NASCAR also issues printed bulletins and updates throughout the season.

Second thing: Every racing sanction which I ever raced with has a statement somewhere in their rulebook to the effect that all rules in that book are open to the interpretation of their appointed officials and the decissions of those officials is final.

As far as Whizzer's rant that started this thread goes; Whiz, things have changed in the last half a century. We used to race and the fans thought the racing was about all the excitement they needed.
Now it's all about the money. Who can get the most from whom. Who has the biggest and best shop, haulers, sponsors or whatever.

That, along with the television deal has brought about a new breed of fan who thinks along the lines of FOX/MTV. Lots of sizzle and noise, bright lights and sparks, but the real action is no longer important to the final product. Maybe a little bit of hamburg, but where has the steak gone?

Man, it's now all about ENTERTAINMENT, not racing. Any resembelance to a sport is purely unintentional.
It's who's got the brightest smile, the best demeanor in front of the camera, or if the message boards are any indication, which driver has the cutest butt.

And the best part is that through it all, the money just keeps on coming in. The rich get richer and the poor complain about the prices they're having to pay.

And NASCAR loves all the publicity it generates amongst those disconcerted souls who keep on handing over the groceries and half the rent just to attend the show.

Ain't life Hell?
 
deliberately running him into the wall, with the potential of taking out most of the field --- that was a bit much.
Click to expand...

TRL, I feel you are giving Leffler far too much credit.

He was so excited about leading and a possible win, he wasn't thinking at all.
 
Originally posted by Lizzycat@Jul 6 2004, 01:40 PM
deliberately running him into the wall, with the potential of taking out most of the field --- that was a bit much.
Click to expand...

TRL, I feel you are giving Leffler far too much credit.

He was so excited about leading and a possible win, he wasn't thinking at all.
Click to expand...
LC, I don't think truer words could be spoken. "I" think all jason was thinking about was winning a Daytona race, and not another thing entered his head.
 
As usual boB you have said it much better than i could. Nascar does have a rule book i know, but what it needs to do is follow it. Too many times the rules are made up or changed as we go along. I know it is left up to interpretation of the officials and that will always be a factor in Nascar. Just maybe though they should have a pannel of Officials ( not Helton, France, or some other dignitary of Nascar ) up in the booth who decide the calls. If there is a question on a ruling these guys huddle with each other, decide the ruling , and the race goes on. They follow a set of rules in print and don't make these arbitrary calls that seem to disrupt the sport. Maybe i'm just making more of this issue than what i should, but it seems to me that back in the "old days " these problems didn't seem to pop up nearly as much as they do now. I know ...i know the sport was much different then.....but i think it was Pure and not corrupted by greed like it is today. Like they say the almighty dollar is the root of all evil....aint that the truth!!!
 
Originally posted by Mopardh9@Jul 6 2004, 01:50 PM
Maybe i'm just making more of this issue than what i should, but it seems to me that back in the "old days " these problems didn't seem to pop up nearly as much as they do now. I know ...i know the sport was much different then.....but i think it was Pure and not corrupted by greed like it is today. Like they say the almighty dollar is the root of all evil....aint that the truth!!!
Click to expand...
But, you know what? It was an issue back then. The issues were between teams and NASCAR though. We seldom heard of penalties unless they were really big and serious ones. I remember seeing the official finishing order quite different from the unofficial order............that seems to tell me that there were disputes or penalities levied after the race. I'm sure some of that was due to manually scoring the events instead of electonically, but when it happened to the lead lap cars it was obvious something was "adjusted". We have some very sophisticated electronics and cameras at almost any angle to make these "calls" on the fly........and we, as fans, are privy to it when in the old days we were not. I think what many people are reacting to are the "instant" analysis put up by our favorite color commentators in the booth. If they would just keep their mouths shut until they get the facts a whole lot of this crap would suddenly become a non-issue.

I'm not saying NASCAR makes good calls all the team........far from it. But with people putting their two cents in before they even know the facts only stirs the pot. By the time an official statement or position is put forth, NASCAR has already been discredited to the point that only more controversy pops up. Look at what has happened in this thread. Who really knows all the facts? It would seem quite a few from the authority some have offered on the subject. I think not, though.
 
Originally posted by boB@Jul 6 2004, 05:51 PM
First thing:
NASCAR does indeed issue a printed rulebook to the drivers, team owners and crewchiefs. Not too sure, but if other members want to have one I believe they have to buy a copy. NASCAR also issues printed bulletins and updates throughout the season.

Second thing: Every racing sanction which I ever raced with has a statement somewhere in their rulebook to the effect that all rules in that book are open to the interpretation of their appointed officials and the decissions of those officials is final.

As far as Whizzer's rant that started this thread goes; Whiz, things have changed in the last half a century. We used to race and the fans thought the racing was about all the excitement they needed.
Now it's all about the money. Who can get the most from whom. Who has the biggest and best shop, haulers, sponsors or whatever.

That, along with the television deal has brought about a new breed of fan who thinks along the lines of FOX/MTV. Lots of sizzle and noise, bright lights and sparks, but the real action is no longer important to the final product. Maybe a little bit of hamburg, but where has the steak gone?

Man, it's now all about ENTERTAINMENT, not racing. Any resembelance to a sport is purely unintentional.
It's who's got the brightest smile, the best demeanor in front of the camera, or if the message boards are any indication, which driver has the cutest butt.

And the best part is that through it all, the money just keeps on coming in. The rich get richer and the poor complain about the prices they're having to pay.

And NASCAR loves all the publicity it generates amongst those disconcerted souls who keep on handing over the groceries and half the rent just to attend the show.

Ain't life Hell?
Click to expand...
Sortta reminds you fo the WWE. With all the lights.sparkles and glidder :lol:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom