Is NASCAR dying?

[FLRacingFan]

I don't think it's impossible. Again, F1 is trying to implement one and we should all pay close attention to how that goes. If that league can do it with all their insane politics then NASCAR can no problem. Step one would be to have all contracts filed with the league office and published, the transparency alone will help even things out a little. Drivers, most CC's, sponsors, and from what I've seen pit crew members on some teams all work on a contract basis. That makes it much easier to place a salary/spending cap for those aspects. Remember, in many cases it was the players unions which pushed leagues to adopt salary caps, not the owners. Now the shop workers, the R&D centers, the manufacturer programs, engine builders... that's where we need to take a cue from F1.

F1 is already 0/2 on budget caps; I'm not holding my breath in anticipation of them getting it done this time around. Those organizations are so expansive with so many different divisions they can almost certainly find ways to hide racing expenses. I think even a few years ago there were rumors Ferrari were testing the new V6T engine in their road cars. I don't doubt that the manufacturers in NASCAR, Toyota and Ford in particular, could help their teams hide stuff considering their level of involvement. And maybe some guys can be employed by an owner's dealership, or they can be assigned to the IndyCar or IMSA program, or what have you.

 

[Thegeneral23]

Great stuff and I hope you have leveraged your love of Nascar by influencing others as that is needed in the worst way.

There are a few things I take issue with and the first is about complaining. Whatever people feel on this forum won't impact Nascar's prospects positively or negatively. It is great that you have come into Nascar at this time and are enjoying it but for many longtime fans it is not as satisfying and that can be proven by the declining interest. Your home track used to seat 156K and dropped its seating capacity to 89K and still can't get anywhere near close to a full house in what should be the epicenter of Nascar interest.

If you live in the Charlotte area and can buy a ticket and go to the track on the day of the race it is easy peasy and not a big layout of cash. If someone lives a day's drive from the track there are a lot more expenses involved such as food, lodging and gasoline so be careful about criticizing those that cite cost as an impediment to attending a race.

Basketball isn't as good as the mid 90's either but certain games just like in NASCAR certain tracks bring more people and certain tracks are more entertaining.. both Charlotte races I have been to last year looks like sellouts well the October race not so much but the 600 def looked like it.. and the cost I have been to DAYTONA, BRISTOL TWICE MARTINSVILLE 3 times Charlotte twice .. so like I said it's 2017 if you want to do something now of days you know the price will be up.. coming from other sports and going to panthers games and hornets games if you want good seats it cost especially at panthers games .. you get what u pay for.. I have seen tickets for 35 dollars at these tracks that's not a lot of money at all come on man and people complain about that in 2017 35 bucks.. you go to Wendy's and get ur family 3 meals it cost around 20 ... so NASCAR to other sporting events is actually cheap and it's me and my girlfriend

 

[FLRacingFan]

First, I don't appreciate your insults. They are inappropriate and completely unnecessary, so please stop them!

Second, your point is a classic non sequitur. If other forms of racing were thriving while people turned away from Nascar, you would have a point. But that is not the case. MotoGP is trending well (in Europe and Asia, not in the US) from a low point just five years ago. But other than that, essentially all forms of racing are suffering revenue shortfalls and audiences that are tiny and/or declining. The distinction between "What's wrong with Nascar" and "What's happening to motorsports across the globe" is crucial to an intelligent discussion.

This could probably be an entire thread by itself. There are some formulae and series that are thriving and/or improving, but for some I think their bubble will burst soon enough at the rate things are moving at and for others you can see them beginning to self-inflict as well. Personally, I think the decline NASCAR shares the most parallels with is F1's.

 

[Skoalbandit33]

Other sports leagues that have caps have them only on player salary. Those contracts are easy to see and enforce. Those leagues don't cap spending on any other aspect of team expenses. I don't see how NASCAR could control spending on R&D, engine and chassis testing, etc. If I share my test results with satellite teams, can I divide the expense six ways?

There are still plenty of ways to circumvent the cap through LTIR and other means too.

 

[Charlie Spencer]

Like I said, for those non-contract expenses we should be closely watching what goes on with Ross Brawn and Formula 1 as they are trying to control these exact things.

Any links to more details? My only regular interaction with F1 is watching Monaco, and that's only as a warm-up for Indy and Charlotte.

 

[FLRacingFan]

NASACAR may or may not be dying but the NBA has had a pretty mediocre regular season that had a bunch of teams resting players and a playoffs that hasn't had a ton of exciting moments yet.

The stages are not a bad idea in the grand scheme of things as long as no phantom cautions are thrown, I think the winner of the race should get 50 points so it's almost guaranteed they will score the most points.

But some of these races need shortened to 400 miles regardless of stage racing.

I think the NBA will take an increase in postseason interest over a decrease in regular season interest. After all, that's the part of the season that people are supposed to watch and what Mickey Mouse and Turner really shelled out for. Not that they don't have things to improve, but they're still getting major victories just about every night right now.

 

[TwoZero]

Why? You could ask that question about any number of sports rules. That's just the way those series operate. MIght as well ask why F1 teams don't use pit stop specialists; I suspect they would if they thought there was an advantage..

F1 absolutely would use pit-stop specialists today if they were allowed - but the sport grew and evolved with the mechanic/pit-crew and now that is enshrined in the rules.

Just like Nascars pit-crew rules - someone started it and the series just codified it.

Cholo's original comment suggested the teams voluntarily adopt using mechanics as pit crew as cost savings measures. That's a different critter from the sanctioning body mandating it in the rules. Yes, it would theoretically be the same for everyone, but I don't see how it could be enforced. Will NASCAR send officials to each team at random to see if Sunday's front tire carrier is on his back under the car on Wednesday? Will the gas man have to pass a randomly scheduled shock set-up exam along with his urine test? In reality, what would be the same for everyone would be the multitude of ways they found around the rule..

F1, DTM, WEC, IMSA etc.. seem to have no problem enforcing it.

As to spending caps, there's a axiom in the military: Don't give an order you know will not be obeyed. A spending cap would be unenforceable.

Plenty of sports leagues have no problem enforcing spending/cost caps. And the teams in those leagues have all the same incentives to "circumvent" them.

Yet somehow they are made to work.

.

 

[Skoalbandit33]

From the last paragraph of that article:



That right there can't be emphasized enough. I see so many on here whistling past the grave not giving a crap about NASCAR's decline, because "if it goes back to how it was in the 80's it will be fine". No, it won't. There is no going back. There is no way this sport survives on 80's level crowds and 80's level viewership and 80's level money, because this isn't the 80's. If the decline continues, NASCAR will die. Once the shareholders of ISC and SMI get fed up and the current management is replaced with outsiders even more beholden to the $$, a sport limping around like indycar stands no chance in hell. Public companies...that is the sword of Damocles hanging over this whole sport as it's currently structured, and if you read the latest earnings calls you can already see the string start to fray.

I didn't read the article as the headline tells me it had to be bogus so there was no point in checking it out. IDK how many people wish Nascar would return to the 80's as I have never read any articles on it or heard anyone interviewed about it. IDK if you are basing things on what is said on this forum but none of it would register a tiny pebble in an Ocean.

 

[Skoalbandit33]

Any links to more details? My only regular interaction with F1 is watching Monaco, and that's only as a warm-up for Indy and Charlotte.

My only interaction with F1 is the Hershey Bar I get for a buck when I press the button on the vending machine.

 

[Charlie Spencer]

F1 absolutely would use pit-stop specialists today if they were allowed - but the sport grew and evolved with the mechanic/pit-crew and now that is enshrined in the rules. Just like Nascars pit-crew rules - someone started it and the series just codified it. ... Plenty of sports leagues have no problem enforcing spending/cost caps. And the teams in those leagues have all the same incentives to "circumvent" them. Yet somehow they are made to work..

No, it's not enshrined in NASCAR's rules. If you want to have the same five guys work at the shop and pit the car, that's fine. If you want to have 15 guys and rotate them out after each change, that's fine too, as long as only five are over the wall at a time. I think you can even pit with only one tire carrier and tire changer instead of two if you want, although you're going to lose about 15 seconds.

As I noted earlier, all those other sports have caps on player salaries only, not complete spending caps.

So tell me, how do other racing series enforce spending caps?

 

[Charlie Spencer]

My only interaction with F1 is the Hershey Bar I get for a buck when I press the button on the vending machine.

Sorry, what's the connection between the two? I don't recall seeing their name on a car, although it's been 11 months since I saw last year's Monaco.

 

[Skoalbandit33]

Sorry, what's the connection between the two? I don't recall seeing their name on a car, although it's been 11 months since I saw last year's Monaco.

Some of them are like this machine but have the rows in letter form with the product number. A Snickers may be an "A4" and so on an so forth.

 

[Acs]

Any links to more details? My only regular interaction with F1 is watching Monaco, and that's only as a warm-up for Indy and Charlotte.

Here's Ross Brawn (The current BZF of F1) talking about cost control recently:
http://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/18557102/ross-brawn-keen-reopen-discussion-budget-caps-f1

He talks about how a previous attempt under Bernie nearly worked in 2009 until two teams threatened to pull out of the sport, followed by a voluntary system that collapsed in 2011. Despite the fact that everyone agrees it would be hard to enforce, F1 damn near pulled it off already but was stymied by the fact that power in that sport is so skewed towards the top teams. NASCAR doesn't have that problem because for all intents and purposes BZF is God. So if NASCAR wanted to go down that route it might be easier.

The other way he talks about controlling costs is through regulations. We hear it all the time in NASCAR, speed costs money, how fast do you want to go? But what Brawn is saying is it doesn't need to be that way. Right now the curve/slope/ROI in F1 and NASCAR is so steep, meaning even spending a little more money gets you faster and faster cars, so the incentive is to spend a lot more and blow the field away. He's talking about structuring the regulations in a way where the slope is flatter, so even if you spend a lot more than the next team you'll only net minor performance gains. That way, the incentive to outspend your rivals is reduced.

 

[TwoZero]

Any links to more details? My only regular interaction with F1 is watching Monaco, and that's only as a warm-up for Indy and Charlotte.

F1 is a mess in how the rules are created. So I'm not holding my breath. I wish Ross Brawn and the new owners Luck.


And FYI - for the record, andI can speak only for my self, but:

"Nascar is Dying" is not a literal statement. Even Indycar didn't die after their disastrous split, its just severely niche. Yes Nascar rode a big bubble that it is now coming down from, and there will be some adjustment.

But there was no reason to make some of the changes that they did (Chase, etc.) that have had a negative impact on their core fan base. They run the risk of making Nascar a niche racing series like Indycar - i.e. completely removed form the public sporting consciousness except for one race a year... Not that they couldn't change some stuff, but in hindsight chasing the "game 7 playoff" moments was the wrong policy that they seem to be doubling down on.

But hindsight is 20/20, and the Nascar Suits do not share my opinion.

.

 

[chances14]

motorsports in general is dying.

to grow a sport, you need to go back to the grassroots and that's where the problem lies.

the average joe can't just decide to go jump in a car and start racing. whereas with stick and ball sports anyone can join either by going to your local field or through your local schools at very little minimal expense.

it's no coincidence that the two sports lowest on the major sports totem poll in the USA (hockey and nascar) are the most expensive and have the least amount of access for the average person to play

 

[LewTheShoe]

I didn't read the article as the headline tells me it had to be bogus so there was no point in checking it out. IDK how many people wish Nascar would return to the 80's as I have never read any articles on it or heard anyone interviewed about it. IDK if you are basing things on what is said on this forum but none of it would register a tiny pebble in an Ocean.

The article would be considered bogus by those who think "everything's great" on Nascar's business side and yet consider the on-track product to be really lousy. OTOH, my opinion is (1) the quality of current Nascar racing is excellent, (2) the industry's business prospects are both very serious and extremely intractable, and (3) the article did a nice job of dovetailing those two conditions. Just my $0.02.

On this forum, many of those who decry how Nascar has evolved since "the good old days" claim to speak for the majority of fans, or ex-fans, as the case may be. I don't know how they know that... perhaps they have conducted extensive research, or maybe read somebody's tweet or something.

 

[TwoZero]

No, it's not enshrined in NASCAR's rules. If you want to have the same five guys work at the shop and pit the car, that's fine. If you want to have 15 guys and rotate them out after each change, that's fine too, as long as only five are over the wall at a time. I think you can even pit with only one tire carrier and tire changer instead of two if you want, although you're going to lose about 15 seconds.

Ok not "enshrined" but certainly allowed, with a limit on the number of personnel.

As I noted earlier, all those other sports have caps on player salaries only, not complete spending caps.

So tell me, how do other racing series enforce spending caps?

Formula E has done so since its beginning: http://autoweek.com/article/indycar/33-million-budget-cap-tempts-indycar-team-formula-e
It just depends what you decide is in the cap or out of it...

Whether you want to call it a salary cap or spending cap the function is exactly the same. The exact same incentives exist to subvert "salary" caps. (off the books payouts, "gifts' etc..) Yet they are enforced.

You have X amount of money to spend on doing Y. Businesses do this to themselves all the time with departmental budgets. The team owners know exactly how much they are spending and on what.

So you have them keep and show books on the costs of the racing team. And get people to enforce it who know what things cost. Yes you'll have to think through some regulation on running costs vs infrastructure. But it just needs some thought.

If Formula E can do it....


.

 

[LewTheShoe]

I think it would be very difficult for a Nascar spending cap to be both comprehensive and effective/enforceable. Good results have come from limiting certain types of activities, such as testing. I guess wind tunnel time could also be limited, and some other specifics like that. There is so much wiggle room in how the teams are integrated with other businesses and with the auto manufacturers...

However, necessity is the mother of invention, so good luck to the RTA and/or Nascar. As @Acs points out, F1 has the same issues. Salary caps for unionized players in the NFL, MLB, etc... that is a very different situation and much simpler to cap, I believe.

 

[Stacy]

It's the sport of Kings. Let the Kings and their staff figure out how they will manage their personnel within the rules to balance budget and performance.

Nothing is stopping the teams from putting their "mechanics" in as the pit crew.

NASCAR gets to manage how many people go over the wall.

 

[FLRacingFan]

The other way he talks about controlling costs is through regulations. We hear it all the time in NASCAR, speed costs money, how fast do you want to go? But what Brawn is saying is it doesn't need to be that way. Right now the curve/slope/ROI in F1 and NASCAR is so steep, meaning even spending a little more money gets you faster and faster cars, so the incentive is to spend a lot more and blow the field away. He's talking about structuring the regulations in a way where the slope is flatter, so even if you spend a lot more than the next team you'll only net minor performance gains. That way, the incentive to outspend your rivals is reduced.

This would be ideal and is probably the most workable option.

I think a big thing would be consistency in the rules and regulations. Over the past several years we've introduced an entirely new generation of car and gone through I can't even count how many different aero packages, whether they be for the full season or for those exploratory test races NASCAR has done at places like Kentucky, Michigan, Indy, and wherever else. I don't know how teams can be expected to cut R&D costs and simultaneously chase a different set of rules all the time.

 

[AndyMarquisLive]

Social media is killing NASCAR more than anything.

Fans "can't afford cable" and don't watch. What incentive is there for any sponsor to come in and sponsor Chase Elliott or Ryan Blaney if the fans can't afford to pay $30/month for cable?

"NASCAR died when Dale died" ... again, what incentive is there for anyone to boost the sport in any way if the fans can't get over something that happened 16 ****** years ago.

"Races are boring now, unlike the good ole' days" when Richard Petty won races by 12 laps instead of 1.2 seconds. Yep, it's so much worse now.

"I'm not going to the race this weekend, it's gonna be too hot (or too cold)". Well, I guess there's no need for Bass Pro Shops to try to sell fishing gear (or hunting gear) to NASCAR fans since NASCAR fans don't go out if it's hot or cold.

The negative energy is killing the sport.

 

[Thegeneral23]

Social media is killing NASCAR more than anything.

Fans "can't afford cable" and don't watch. What incentive is there for any sponsor to come in and sponsor Chase Elliott or Ryan Blaney if the fans can't afford to pay $30/month for cable?

"NASCAR died when Dale died" ... again, what incentive is there for anyone to boost the sport in any way if the fans can't get over something that happened 16 ******* years ago.

"Races are boring now, unlike the good ole' days" when Richard Petty won races by 12 laps instead of 1.2 seconds. Yep, it's so much worse now.

"I'm not going to the race this weekend, it's gonna be too hot (or too cold)". Well, I guess there's no need for Bass Pro Shops to try to sell fishing gear (or hunting gear) to NASCAR fans since NASCAR fans don't go out if it's hot or cold.

The negative energy is killing the sport.

MAN YOUR RIGHT ONTHIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAIDPEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT THE SMALLEST THINGS THERE HURTING THE SPORT WITH ALL THE NEGATIVITY

 

[AndyMarquisLive]

MAN YOUR RIGHT ONTHIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAIDPEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT THE SMALLEST THINGS THERE HURTING THE SPORT WITH ALL THE NEGATIVITY

I am probably somewhat out of place to talk about "ticket prices" since I haven't paid my way into a race in six years.

Anyway, I just looked up tickets for Charlotte in May. I can get tickets for the All Star Race for $40, and tickets to the entire 600 weekend for $80. Also, says kids 13 and under get in for just $10, and I think they do free admission for kids at Truck and XFINITY races. That really isn't a terrible deal.

I don't know about hotels though. I only get hotel rooms when I go to the Snowball Derby or the Myrtle Beach 400.

 

[Thegeneral23]

Our borders are wide open and anyone can just walk right in.

That's what I'm told every single day.

I am probably somewhat out of place to talk about "ticket prices" since I haven't paid my way into a race in six years.

Anyway, I just looked up tickets for Charlotte in May. I can get tickets for the All Star Race for $40, and tickets to the entire 600 weekend for $80. Also, says kids 13 and under get in for just $10, and I think they do free admission for kids at Truck and XFINITY races. That really isn't a terrible deal.

I don't know about hotels though. I only get hotel rooms when I go to the Snowball Derby or the Myrtle Beach 400.

Hahaha man I love it lol.. that's why I don't understand the complaining in here?? 40 dollars is dirt cheap for an professional event !!!

 

[AndyMarquisLive]

Hahaha man I love it lol.. that's why I don't understand the complaining in here?? 40 dollars is dirt cheap for an professional event !!!

Last time I paid my way into a race was a World of Outlaws race, tickets were $35 a piece and the entire show was done in under an hour and a half.

$40 for a NASCAR race is a steal. And I looked up those seats and they're pretty good seats too. I'm actually thinking about going to that now.

 

[Thegeneral23]

I just got me and my girl tickets at start finish line for COC 600 and they gave us 50 dollars off Haha I don't get all the complaining about the tickets and this and that.. when u travel don't stay right by the track I just started watching NASCAR last year and even knows that! Stay some distance away and the hotel room is cheap! All this stuff is common sense

 

[Thegeneral23]

Last time I paid my way into a race was a World of Outlaws race, tickets were $35 a piece and the entire show was done in under an hour and a half. I'll never do that again.

$40 for a NASCAR race is a steal. And I looked up those seats and they're pretty good seats too. I'm actually thinking about going to that now.

Yea man the stuff I hear people complain about is crazy to be honest..

 

[AndyMarquisLive]

I just got me and my girl tickets at start finish line for COC 600 and they gave us 50 dollars off Haha I don't get all the complaining about the tickets and this and that.. when u travel don't stay right by the track I just started watching NASCAR last year and even knows that! Stay some distance away and the hotel room is cheap! All this stuff is common sense

I'll sleep in my truck before I spend hundreds of dollars on a hotel room.

 

[AndyMarquisLive]

There are actually laws against hotel price gouging in most states, I guess they just don't enforce them.

Some of these hotel booking websites are actually cracking down on the price gouging.

 

[Johali]

He talks about how a previous attempt under Bernie nearly worked in 2009

This guy?

 

[Skoalbandit33]

I think one very important thing to keep in mind is that even though this is a great forum we can't draw any conclusions about how large groups of people feel about Nascar or anything else based on the tenor of this place. One forum may take a harsher tone with Nascar and another may be more appreciative and complimentary but regardless all places like this are specs of dust in the grand scheme of things.

In terms of the races we have seen this year I have been very complimentary and that can be verified by checking the "Rate the Race" thread if necessary. Even though I have enjoyed the racing I am still disenchanted with Nascar on many fronts and there are several of us on here that are like minded and we like to discuss it.

For all the good people here that like Nascar or believe like Brian France does that "the racing has never been better than today" may God continue to richly bless you. Enjoy it, follow it, get into it and tell us all early and often as to what you like and why you like it. I don't think the people that are less than complimentary toward Nascar mind your effusive praise and even if they did who cares?

 

[Skoalbandit33]

MAN YOUR RIGHT ONTHIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAIDPEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT THE SMALLEST THINGS THERE HURTING THE SPORT WITH ALL THE NEGATIVITY

It is hard for me to believe that people are so small minded they let others do their thinking for them and allow them to decide what they will like and dislike. I have always been my own person and made my own way and my own decisions and it has served me well. Why would anyone allow a mass of people slumped over electronic devices to have so much power over them? Does that make sense?

 

[Thegeneral23]

It is hard for me to believe that people are so small minded they let others do their thinking for them and allow them to decide what they will like and dislike. I have always been my own person and made my own way and my own decisions and it has served me well. Why would anyone allow a mass of people slumped over electronic devices to have so much power over them? Does that make sense?

Are u tying to say I'm being a follower?

 

[Thegeneral23]

It is hard for me to believe that people are so small minded they let others do their thinking for them and allow them to decide what they will like and dislike. I have always been my own person and made my own way and my own decisions and it has served me well. Why would anyone allow a mass of people slumped over electronic devices to have so much power over them? Does that make sense?

I'm confused

 

[Skoalbandit33]

Social media is killing NASCAR more than anything.

Fans "can't afford cable" and don't watch. What incentive is there for any sponsor to come in and sponsor Chase Elliott or Ryan Blaney if the fans can't afford to pay $30/month for cable?

"NASCAR died when Dale died" ... again, what incentive is there for anyone to boost the sport in any way if the fans can't get over something that happened 16 ******* years ago.

"Races are boring now, unlike the good ole' days" when Richard Petty won races by 12 laps instead of 1.2 seconds. Yep, it's so much worse now.

"I'm not going to the race this weekend, it's gonna be too hot (or too cold)". Well, I guess there's no need for Bass Pro Shops to try to sell fishing gear (or hunting gear) to NASCAR fans since NASCAR fans don't go out if it's hot or cold.

The negative energy is killing the sport.

Wouldn't it just be easier for Nascar to produce a product that people across all generation enjoyed? Half of Nascar's audience is 55 and over so how many of them are on major social media sites bad mouthing Nascar and turning people away from it?

 

[Skoalbandit33]

Are u tying to say I'm being a follower?

Not at all as I was just wondering about the people that would let negative talk of Nascar influence whether they checked it out or not. It is foreign to me that someone would allow that.

 

[Skoalbandit33]

I'm confused

MAN YOUR RIGHT ONTHIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAIDPEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT THE SMALLEST THINGS THERE HURTING THE SPORT WITH ALL THE NEGATIVITY

I was responding to this quote of yours that people complaining about Nascar are hurting it. If people told me that Rhubarb pie sucked I wouldn't take their word for it as just because they didn't like it doesn't mean I wouldn't.

 

[Thegeneral23]

Not at all as I was just wondering about the people that would let negative talk of Nascar influence whether they checked it out or not. It is foreign to me that someone would allow that.

Ohh ok I get u ... know the thing is it's a lot of negative talk going on in this world about NASCAR not just in here but everywhere.. a lot of complaining about stuff that doesn't even make sense.. I see everywhere ticket price this ticket price that.. come on 35-40 gets u in the gate.. Toyota's in NASCAR there made not in America I can't watch haha like come on man.. who complains about stuff like this.. but I do get your point

 

[Thegeneral23]

MAN YOUR RIGHT ONTHIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAIDPEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT THE SMALLEST THINGS THERE HURTING THE SPORT WITH ALL THE NEGATIVITY

I was responding to this quote of yours that people complaining about Nascar are hurting it. If people told me that Rhubarb pie sucked I wouldn't take their word for it as just because they didn't like it doesn't mean I wouldn't.

Yea but it's people in this world that isn't a strong as you and are followers people tend to follow more than lead.. if people keep complaining then the next person to the same it's like a chain reaction.. I don't even think some people know what there complaining about they just do it because they say it's not the good ol days lol.. the good ol days are gone it's 2017

 

[jws926]

Toyota's in NASCAR there made not in America I can't watch haha like come on man.. who complains about stuff like this.. but I do get your point

That one is a good, I guess its ok that American cars being built outside of America is ok, but nope, cant have a one of them evil furrin cars that is built in the USA in NASCAR.