How on Earth can you call the Chase "a lottery"?

Zerkfitting said:
Something like that happened to Davey Allison in the last race of the season under the old points system.
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In Davey's case though, he had 28 races to build up enough of a cushion to keep something like that from happening, but didn't have quite enough points in the bank to keep the title. In our current format you have no such opportunity, the final four all enter Homestead with 5,000 points, whether they won 10 races that season or didn't win any.
 
Acs said:
lol, you want to talk about illegitimate championships in NASCAR and yet you bring up college football? You realize that still to this day the NCAA does not crown a D-1A football champion, right?
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More so than any other stick-and-ball sport, college football rewards the team that is best throughout the whole season. In the NFL, a 8-8 team can go on to win the SuperBowl. In college football, any more than 1-loss is generally going to prevent you from contending. So it's really the opposite of the current NASCAR system, where a guy like Chris Buescher, analogous to a 3-9 team, is made a contender through artificial points manipulation.
 
Zerkfitting said:
Something like that happened to Davey Allison in the last race of the season under the old points system.
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And, under this system, not that it would ever happen but, a driver could win 35 races and then lose the championship because they get taken out at Miami.

But, that wasn't a one race, winner-take-all championship. Actually, it was a rare, once in a lifetime race where everything fell into place a certain way, which is why that race is so special. Same with Miami in 2011.

NASCAR decided they wanted every championship to come down to the final race and it takes away from the true "Game 7" moments.

Imagine if every race ended with a photofinish like the Daytona 500 did? Suddenly, photofinishes wouldn't be special anymore if they kept happening.

The IndyCar Series is again coming down to the final race of the year with two drivers battling for the championship. Happens every year in that series and they don't have a Chase. The CARS Tour has a super-tight points race and they don't have a silly Chase.
 
29-4 said:
More so than any other stick-and-ball sport, college football rewards the team that is best throughout the whole season. In the NFL, a 8-8 team can go on to win the SuperBowl. In college football, any more than 1-loss is generally going to prevent you from contending. So it's really the opposite of the current NASCAR system, where a guy like Chris Buescher, analogous to a 3-9 team, is made a contender through artificial points manipulation.
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Stick and ball alert

In the NFL, that 8-8 team got there by the defined rules, i.e., having the best record in its division. In college football (and basketball), the teams that go to playoffs are determined by a committee that factors in a bunch of crap besides W-L record, like strength of schedule and even historic performance in past seasons. It may choose to ignore other factors like regular season record in favor of conference tournament performance. Oh, and that committee doesn't have to explain why four 11-1 football teams made it and another was left out.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
The IndyCar Series is again coming down to the final race of the year with two drivers battling for the championship. Happens every year in that series and they don't have a Chase. The CARS Tour has a super-tight points race and they don't have a silly Chase.
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Minor quibble: those series don't have half the races the Cup series does, so there are fewer opportunities for the field to get separated. Also, IndyCar awards double points for some races (including this weekend's closer), giving drivers more chances to close (or open) the gap.

But I'm with you otherwise.
 
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Brian is un-moved.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Minor quibble: those series don't have half the races the Cup series does, so there are fewer opportunities for the field to get separated. Also, IndyCar awards double points for some races (including this weekend's closer), giving drivers more chances to close (or open) the gap.

But I'm with you otherwise.
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Several seasons, since the implementation of the Chase, that the points would've come down to the finale without a Chase. 2006 and 2008 most notably. And things would be tight this year as well.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Several seasons, since the implementation of the Chase, that the points would've come down to the finale without a Chase. 2006 and 2008 most notably. And things would be tight this year as well.
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Please list a few more ... notable seasons.
 
The big Late Model race at Martinsville used to have a mandated 10 to go caution, designed to produce a great finish. Under that format, in every Martinsville 300 I went to, the best car never won.

In fact, in 2013, the caution actually interrupted a thrilling four car battle for the lead and the win between Lee Pulliam, Dillon Bassett, Matt Waltz and Deac McCaskill. Neither of those drivers won and the finish of the race came down to a, um, interesting restart.

Manufactured excitement isn't always exciting, and will never live up to actual excitement.

Martinsville finally did away with the rule last year thanks to Dale Jr :)
 
Revman said:
Help me with the sport that is based on a season long body of work......



I love my blinders. The visor on my Champions cap has the same effect.
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I don't understand your question? Are you talking about other sports having playoffs??? you know..ones that they only play ONE other team in a given week??? Where in racing you race everyone every week? See the difference? Yeah, you won't cause you think the chase is oh so great as it gave your boy a championship.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Assuming everything the sport represents is money generated by a program that at best could be called an unpaid apprenticeship and at worst the last vestiges of slavery, sure.
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It is possible but I doubt many slaves got full ride scholarships to good institutions. If you get a scholarship to universities like Notre Dame you have been well paid.
 
Blaze88 said:
I don't understand your question? Are you talking about other sports having playoffs??? you know..ones that they only play ONE other team in a given week??? Where in racing you race everyone every week? See the difference? Yeah, you won't cause you think the chase is oh so great as it gave your boy a championship.
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Quit the snarky crap, and let's address your point. To some, championships are about performing when you absolutely have to. I am a huge Reggie Jackson fan because I thought that although he probably underperformed during the season, he was huge in the clutch. I do not feel that it is possible to be a Hall of Famer in anything (I really do not like Hall of Fames in any sport) unless an athlete has performed under the pressure of a championship. IMO the Chase shouldn't work, but in 2014 it really did with Harvick. Hands down, he was fastest all year, and then delivered when it was completely conceivable that he wouldn't. That was a special championship. The potential exists for this thing to go bad, but it seems that the top tier teams are so good that they deliver when they need to. I find that even more special than stick and ball given the circumstances of this sport. Kyle's championship was different than Harvick's obviously, but the fact remains the same.....when it was all on the line, he delivered. That is what a champion is to me. Those butthurt over the 11 race "vacation" will always bitch about it, but have no reason other than, "It's not right," to be pissed. Kyle's comeback after his wreck is one of those legendary sports stories. Sad part is that there are some fans who want to rip it apart. How the hell do we share this sport with those who have not experienced it when we cannot appreciate those special performances ourselves? NASCAR fans are passionate, but pretty much all fanboys (some in the closet) who present "objective" opinions when really its the passion for their drivers talking. Who the hell really sits back and objectively assess an athletic contest? What would be the point in that? I respect the passion, and laugh at the "unbiased" analysis. Here's to hoping that Junior makes it back BTW.
 
Revman said:
Quit the snarky crap, and let's address your point. To some, championships are about performing when you absolutely have to. I am a huge Reggie Jackson fan because I thought that although he probably underperformed during the season, he was huge in the clutch. I do not feel that it is possible to be a Hall of Famer in anything (I really do not like Hall of Fames in any sport) unless an athlete has performed under the pressure of a championship. IMO the Chase shouldn't work, but in 2014 it really did with Harvick. Hands down, he was fastest all year, and then delivered when it was completely conceivable that he wouldn't. That was a special championship. The potential exists for this thing to go bad, but it seems that the top tier teams are so good that they deliver when they need to. I find that even more special than stick and ball given the circumstances of this sport. Kyle's championship was different than Harvick's obviously, but the fact remains the same.....when it was all on the line, he delivered. That is what a champion is to me. Those butthurt over the 11 race "vacation" will always bitch about it, but have no reason other than, "It's not right," to be pissed. Kyle's comeback after his wreck is one of those legendary sports stories. Sad part is that there are some fans who want to rip it apart. How the hell do we share this sport with those who have not experienced it when we cannot appreciate those special performances ourselves? NASCAR fans are passionate, but pretty much all fanboys (some in the closet) who present "objective" opinions when really its the passion for their drivers talking. Who the hell really sits back and objectively assess an athletic contest? What would be the point in that? I respect the passion, and laugh at the "unbiased" analysis. Here's to hoping that Junior makes it back BTW.
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:XXROFL::XXROFL: while shaking my head.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
The NFL and NHL both have different rules for their playoffs. The overtime rules are different and the policing of games (in NHL) is very different.

Luck plays too big a factor in the Chase now. And, since they use regular season rules, there is nothing on the books to ensure a proper postseason race.

It was BS what they did to Matt Kenseth last year when he wrecked Joey Logano. They should have just made a new rule moving forward instead of suspending him under a new rule. That'd be like arresting someone who hasn't committed a crime, writing a new law to criminalize what they did and then throwing them in jail.

However, a rule should be in place to ensure that Chase drivers don't get taken out by non-Chase drivers. In fact, I think that, if that happens again, the race should be red flagged long enough for the Chaser who got dumped to unload their backup car. And if a Chase driver intentionally takes out another Chase driver, park them.

Imagine if Kevin Harvick and Martin Truex, Jr. were battling for the lead at Homestead and Tony Stewart took Truex out while being lapped.

Also, Chase races should have to go their full distance. MLB has a rule that states that postseason games cannot be shortened by rain, even though regular season games can be. If a race starts and it starts raining, either wait it out or finish it on Monday.

NFL rules allow for regular season games to end in ties, but playoff games cannot end in a tie. They keep playing until someone scores. NASCAR's version of Overtime should be similar. No "Overtime Line". If the caution comes out on the white flag lap of a Chase race, rerack them and do it again. And keep doing it until the race finishes under the checkered flag.

Oh, and NO RESTRICTOR PLATE RACES IN THE CHASE. Why the **** Talladega is there is beyond me, especially since that race is usually a crashfest.
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Every year the same thing. People hating Talladega being in the chase. Easily the chase race I look forward to the most. Yes I know I'm a Jr fan. This year he won't be there and it's still the one I'm most looking forward to.
 
Revman said:
Quit the snarky crap, and let's address your point. To some, championships are about performing when you absolutely have to. I am a huge Reggie Jackson fan because I thought that although he probably underperformed during the season, he was huge in the clutch. I do not feel that it is possible to be a Hall of Famer in anything (I really do not like Hall of Fames in any sport) unless an athlete has performed under the pressure of a championship. IMO the Chase shouldn't work, but in 2014 it really did with Harvick. Hands down, he was fastest all year, and then delivered when it was completely conceivable that he wouldn't. That was a special championship. The potential exists for this thing to go bad, but it seems that the top tier teams are so good that they deliver when they need to. I find that even more special than stick and ball given the circumstances of this sport. Kyle's championship was different than Harvick's obviously, but the fact remains the same.....when it was all on the line, he delivered. That is what a champion is to me. Those butthurt over the 11 race "vacation" will always bitch about it, but have no reason other than, "It's not right," to be pissed. Kyle's comeback after his wreck is one of those legendary sports stories. Sad part is that there are some fans who want to rip it apart. How the hell do we share this sport with those who have not experienced it when we cannot appreciate those special performances ourselves? NASCAR fans are passionate, but pretty much all fanboys (some in the closet) who present "objective" opinions when really its the passion for their drivers talking. Who the hell really sits back and objectively assess an athletic contest? What would be the point in that? I respect the passion, and laugh at the "unbiased" analysis. Here's to hoping that Junior makes it back BTW.
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I watch my favorite teams objectively as it is the correct thing to do. I don't want my team doing and well and winning because of bad officiating I want them doing well and winning because they have earned it.
Revman said:
Quit the snarky crap, and let's address your point. To some, championships are about performing when you absolutely have to. I am a huge Reggie Jackson fan because I thought that although he probably underperformed during the season, he was huge in the clutch. I do not feel that it is possible to be a Hall of Famer in anything (I really do not like Hall of Fames in any sport) unless an athlete has performed under the pressure of a championship. IMO the Chase shouldn't work, but in 2014 it really did with Harvick. Hands down, he was fastest all year, and then delivered when it was completely conceivable that he wouldn't. That was a special championship. The potential exists for this thing to go bad, but it seems that the top tier teams are so good that they deliver when they need to. I find that even more special than stick and ball given the circumstances of this sport. Kyle's championship was different than Harvick's obviously, but the fact remains the same.....when it was all on the line, he delivered. That is what a champion is to me. Those butthurt over the 11 race "vacation" will always bitch about it, but have no reason other than, "It's not right," to be pissed. Kyle's comeback after his wreck is one of those legendary sports stories. Sad part is that there are some fans who want to rip it apart. How the hell do we share this sport with those who have not experienced it when we cannot appreciate those special performances ourselves? NASCAR fans are passionate, but pretty much all fanboys (some in the closet) who present "objective" opinions when really its the passion for their drivers talking. Who the hell really sits back and objectively assess an athletic contest? What would be the point in that? I respect the passion, and laugh at the "unbiased" analysis. Here's to hoping that Junior makes it back BTW.
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Enthusiastic fans are valued but escapees of driver fan clubs should return to said fan clubs.

Try chatting up sports fans about Nascar and you will either be shut down immediately or not soon after you start explaining the rules.

An honorable person likes a fair fight and I do not want any of my teams enjoying success due to poor officiating or some other factor but instead want them to do well on merit.

Some people like Nascar's lottery but there are people that like spam and headcheese too. If the lottery were a good thing for the series it should be something that generated spectators, viewers and fans but that is far from the case.
 
Johnny G said:
Every year the same thing. People hating Talladega being in the chase. Easily the chase race I look forward to the most. Yes I know I'm a Jr fan. This year he won't be there and it's still the one I'm most looking forward to.
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Some people really like plate racing as they feel it represents a different form of racing that requires a different type of skill set. As near as I can tell a majority on this forum do not see plate racing that way and instead see it as an artificial way to manufacture dumbed down competition. I know for sure that one person thinks Nascar crowing about safety and having 4 smash fests each year is the height of hypocrisy.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
I watch my favorite teams objectively as it is the correct thing to do. I don't want my team doing and well and winning because of bad officiating I want them doing well and winning because they have earned it.


Enthusiastic fans are valued but escapees of driver fan clubs should return to said fan clubs.

Try chatting up sports fans about Nascar and you will either be shut down immediately or not soon after you start explaining the rules.

An honorable person likes a fair fight and I do not want any of my teams enjoying success due to poor officiating or some other factor but instead want them to do well on merit.

Some people like Nascar's lottery but there are people that like spam and headcheese too. If the lottery were a good thing for the series it should be something that generated spectators, viewers and fans but that is far from the case.
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But you're still calling it a "lottery".
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
Some people really like plate racing as they feel it represents a different form of racing that requires a different type of skill set. As near as I can tell a majority on this forum do not see plate racing that way and instead see it as an artificial way to manufacture dumbed down competition. I know for sure that one person thinks Nascar crowing about safety and having 4 smash fests each year is the height of hypocrisy.
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I agree with you about how plate racing seems to be perceived on this board. I also see it as requiring a unique skill set when you considered only a select few drivers have ever truely been dominant plate racers.
I guess being a fan of the plate races I get amused at how annoyed some people get about them. The four times a year when people will start calling for "them to knock the banking down at Daytona and Talladega" like that's actually goin to happen. Ya don't hear me calling for them to knock down yhe 1.5 milers that are like watching paint dry most races.
 
Hey a plate racing debate, RP races are some of the best races of the year and considering they're the biggest TV draw, most would agree with that. They're also not as bad as some would have you think in terms of danger and safety, just a couple recently mainly cause of a weather threat.
 
cheesepuffs said:
But you're still calling it a "lottery".
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I do think Nascar's method of crowning a champ is a lottery for most of the reasons mentioned. If you and other like it that is OK with me but I don't see the lottery and many of Nascar's other rules as sporting.
 
Johnny G said:
I agree with you about how plate racing seems to be perceived on this board. I also see it as requiring a unique skill set when you considered only a select few drivers have ever truely been dominant plate racers.
I guess being a fan of the plate races I get amused at how annoyed some people get about them. The four times a year when people will start calling for "them to knock the banking down at Daytona and Talladega" like that's actually goin to happen. Ya don't hear me calling for them to knock down yhe 1.5 milers that are like watching paint dry most races.
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I don't think any of the plate races are going anywhere anytime soon as even though they are not well supported on the forum they are in the real world as they have good attendance and viewership. In the past I knew a few people that watched plate races for the wrecks and they were quite upfront about it.

My main bug-a-boo about plate racing is I feel it puts drivers unnecessarily in harms way.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
The NFL and NHL both have different rules for their playoffs. The overtime rules are different and the policing of games (in NHL) is very different.

Luck plays too big a factor in the Chase now. And, since they use regular season rules, there is nothing on the books to ensure a proper postseason race.

It was BS what they did to Matt Kenseth last year when he wrecked Joey Logano. They should have just made a new rule moving forward instead of suspending him under a new rule. That'd be like arresting someone who hasn't committed a crime, writing a new law to criminalize what they did and then throwing them in jail.

However, a rule should be in place to ensure that Chase drivers don't get taken out by non-Chase drivers. In fact, I think that, if that happens again, the race should be red flagged long enough for the Chaser who got dumped to unload their backup car. And if a Chase driver intentionally takes out another Chase driver, park them.

Imagine if Kevin Harvick and Martin Truex, Jr. were battling for the lead at Homestead and Tony Stewart took Truex out while being lapped.

Also, Chase races should have to go their full distance. MLB has a rule that states that postseason games cannot be shortened by rain, even though regular season games can be. If a race starts and it starts raining, either wait it out or finish it on Monday.

NFL rules allow for regular season games to end in ties, but playoff games cannot end in a tie. They keep playing until someone scores. NASCAR's version of Overtime should be similar. No "Overtime Line". If the caution comes out on the white flag lap of a Chase race, rerack them and do it again. And keep doing it until the race finishes under the checkered flag.

Oh, and NO RESTRICTOR PLATE RACES IN THE CHASE. Why the **** Talladega is there is beyond me, especially since that race is usually a crashfest.
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Even if it's only like 10 laps or so? :rolleyes: I say extended it past the half way thing, but come on you got to draw a line somewhere.
 
Johnny G said:
I'd love to see Jimmie all of a sudden find that magic that's been missing all season, go on a tear, win #7 and watch people lose their minds lol
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Right now , he has a one in sixteen chance just like everyone else . But , isn't that the reason for the chase ?
 
Don't agree with the idea of Chase races needing to go their distance. If it rains it rains. No need to keep teams hanging around for days. It's the same for everyone, winning in the rain isn't always a fluke like some ppl think it is. I've always been someone who feels like they hang around too long sometime. If your past half distance and it's raining, and it's looks like the delay will be over 2 hrs just call it.
 
NasNYG567 said:
Hey a plate racing debate, RP races are some of the best races of the year and considering they're the biggest TV draw, most would agree with that. They're also not as bad as some would have you think in terms of danger and safety, just a couple recently mainly cause of a weather threat.
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Fans flocked to the coliseums as well to watch the lions dine on Christians.
 
Johali said:
A reality burger with a side of holy moly.
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Good stuff. Great to see that your fellow Muppets enjoyed it as well. :D I trust that you went with the Hot Wheel not the miniature Barbie offering.
 
Revman said:
Good stuff. Great to see that your fellow Muppets enjoyed it as well. :D I trust that you went with the Hot Wheel not the miniature Barbie offering.
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Have you found very many/any fans that are as enthralled with Nascar in it's current form as you are. No fudging please.
 
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